Dec 282010

First, I’ve updated the trinket list with heroic trinkets, and tweaked things a bit. Check it out if you’re interested. (For most, I’d recommend Fluid Death and a ilvl 372 agility trinket (if you have it) or Tia’s Grace as your best bet in general, swapping in Unsolvable Riddle for Tia’s on fights with short burn phases.)

Second, GC floated several proposed class changes yesterday. Ferals had two points: first, haste’s value needed to be upped for bears (which Kalon has covered extensively). second, kitty damage is too bleed-centric. (Oh, and Berserk will probably no longer break fear.)

Hmm. I agree that kitty-damage is very DoT-centric, but I don’t think it’s overly so; rather, it’s pretty comparable to spriests and afflocks (50% of our damage). The big problem, though, is that those bleeds, are undispellable. I understand the issue, but dammit, I like being a “melee lock.” I’d rather not go back to being a more DD class, like ICC turned into with ArPen stacking.

IMO, address the issue directly. First, nerf bleeds a tad but let them scale with haste, to make haste more interesting. Second, if that doesn’t do it, make Rake dispellable. (I’m sure some one who actually does PvP can come in and tell me why that’s a huge nerf…please, feel free. My understanding is that dispels are extremely costly, mana-wise, so it may be more of a tradeoff then you’d think.)

 Posted by at 10:41 pm

  16 Responses to “Trinket list updated; bear and cat changes”

  1. Am I the only one that sees these “bleeds are not dispellable” arguments and remembers why the bleeds are the way they are? Was it TBC or early WotLK where they were concerned with ret pals and feral’s insane direct burst damage and said, “We’re going to shift some of their damage into DoTs to limit the burst and let combats play out longer”. And now we (the player community) are all blithely accepting that the shifted damage in physical damage DoTs should be dispelled? Instead of making more DoTs dispellable, they should be making less!

    I don’t like the idea of dispellable damage in PVP, at all. Burst damage needs to be carefully limited in PVP to make it interesting, and shifting that into DoTs is a good way to do it. It is immensely more healable and allows players more time to use defensives before they are nuked into a GY. Making DoTs dispellable ruins balance for classes whose DPS comes from (now dispellable) DoTs, and shifts the focus back to burst classes. I can’t ‘dispel’ any of the Ice Lance spam I take throughout a fight, why should an enemy be able to dispel my Rakes or (Grom forbid) Rips? Hopefully this will help PVE’rs understand what Blizzard is talking about when they mention the difficulty of this entire ‘dispel’ aspect of PVP.

    Furthermore, have you guys ever fought a tank-spec’d PVP plate class? It is a nightmare of dodge/miss/blocks. DoTs are the only way to get these plate down; personally if its a BG I just root the f’rs and move onto something else.

    • To clarify: Classes whose % damage leans heavier towards DoTs than direct damage are more adversely affected by dispels. PVP DPS’rs will gravitate towards the DD-heavy classes. We’ve had multiple PVP seasons establish that a direct damage heavy PVP “nuke em down” game is not terribly fun or challenging.

      And just to address the “dispels are costly” side of the argument. What is a “costly” spell now will be much more minor a season later with improving gear, and trivial a season after that. Mana pools and mana regen increases steadily over seasons and raid content, so they’d have to constantly tune it to keep it “costly”. That’s why I argue they should relegate dispels to non-damage entirely.

      • Counterargument: Hasn’t the increased stamina across the board already decreased burst significantly?

        I don’t know. I think the big problem people have with ferals in PvP atm is not OP damage but above-average survivability combined with decent DPS. The pendulum used to swing back and forth between burst and healing, but now mitigation seems to play a big part as well.

  2. Yes, that’s true now; although it remains to be seen if burst won’t once again become a problem later. I doubt it will, as I think Blizz has decreased the item weight of STA and it will stay ahead of DPS.

    But I don’t think that is pertinent to the argument though – X points of direct damage is strictly superior to X points of damage as a DoT. DoTs are easier to heal, and give more time to apply defensive CDs to mitigate. Why do people feel that they should be dispellable on top of that? Let heals be the damage “dispel”. PVP is a nightmare to balance already without worrying about which classes have a higher % of dispellable damage – do you increase their DPS to compensate? What if you don’t have a dispeller around?

    • Apples to oranges, I think. Generally, the choice is between a certain amount of direct damage (Shred, Shadowfury) or a stronger but longer DoT ability (Rake, Corruption). Both have advantages and disadvantages. If someone’s at 10% HP I’m spamming Shred to kill him; If they’re at 80% I’m putting up Rake first. Etc. From the healer PoV, they can either dispel a DoT (large mana hit but less damage) or let it tick (saves mana, more damage). The decision is not automatic. Bleeds, being undispellable, offer the healer no such flexibility, which is what they’re talking about.

      • DoTs (ie our bleeds – I’m keeping this general as I believe this isn’t a feral specific issue) offer a healer far more flexibility than DD though! The healer can choose to HoT to counter the DoT, or let it ride and then use a nuke heal. The victim also has time to choose to apply a defensive to mitigate the DoT. DoTs give a victim time, and that’s the point I was trying to make in the original post (ie, the reason Blizz shifted some of feral/ret PVP damage to DoTs). DD can only be healed and is tough to predict (how is a target supposed to know when a F-Bite is coming?) when using defensives. So inherently, whatever ‘extra damage’ a DoT does for its cost compared to DD, its extra damage is compensated in the fact that it is done over time. People are exaggerating when they say there is ‘nothing they can do’ once they are bled – healing pot, healthstone, barkskin, HoT up, the list is endless.

        First, if we were to make bleeds dispellable, how would you prevent them from completely negating major damage sources, such as Rip? I know your OP mentioned Rake, but what sense does it make to make Rake dispellable but not Rip? For me this would make feral PVP mindless – all Shreds and Bites, maybe the occasional Maim with Berserk or a big energy pool. I can’t imagine fighting plate, particularly a prot, backed by a healer that can dispel my bleeds.

        Second, how would you address the issue I mentioned – that a “costly” dispel at today’s gear level is no longer very costly a month from now, and is trivial at gear levels a month or so after that? As my gear improves my DoTs will increase in damage, but no matter how deadly they get, someone will be able to just dismiss them *binarily* with a static cost spell (as opposed to being countered by scaling healing spells). Its a poor mechanic.

        Third, where do you stop? Its not just bleeds that are undispellable, they’re just the most painful now; every class/spec has some sort of undispellable DoT – moonfire, etc – why the bleeds?

        The main problem is that Mastery has basically pushed our bleeds ~50% higher (assuming normal reforging) than where it was in ICC. I don’t have a problem with Blizzard shifting some of that damage back into the DD pile (particularly for PVE, where target switching makes it a pain to get/keep Rip up). I am just really worried about this talk about making bleeds dispellable; there’s this pervading mentality that if there’s some sort of debuff icon on a person, it HAS to be removable somehow. It takes away some of our choice, as DPS. Honestly, I wouldn’t throw a fit if they made Rake dispellable, but it would be taking the already poor dispel game in the wrong direction IMHO.

  3. Sorry for wall of text; a few minor additions – dispel bleeds would make feral pvp all /mangle/ and bites, although shredding is still very possible with 2xInfWounds and the 4pc PVP set.

    And to clarify the time argument – most people complaining about ferals are the ones sitting at ~10% at the end of a fight with a feral, and watching “helplessly” as they tick down to 0. My argument is, they have every opportunity to do the things listed (heal or mitigate), and they are ignoring the fact that had the feral chosen to DD instead of DoT, there’s a good chance they’d have no choices at all. Strangely, they’ll accept that a F-Bite killed them instantly, but fume that a Rip took 6 more seconds to do so.

    • Good points, all the way through. They’re definitely going to have to address the dispel cost issue. Either way, I think we’re going to have to agree to disagree on whether our bleeds should be dispellable; it doesn’t feel consistent to me that magical DoTs are dispellable, while bleeds are not. (Then again, you have to be in melee range to apply a bleed, which might be the compensating factor.)

      • Yeah, I agree on the consistency issue. With the rapid state that Bliz is now changing the game (which is great in many ways), its tough to keep up with how abilities of classes we’re not as familiar with have changed and what all the debuffs do, which can be removed, which need to be removed, and which you can let ride. For instance – can Soothe get rid of Berserk, Berzerker Rage, or Beast Within? I’ve no idea. It makes no sense that it works on some enrages and not others. Whatever they end up doing with dispels, I do hope it becomes more consistent. And never returns to the Lucifron dispel-mashing days. :)

  4. Why does blizz want to wreck PvE (which is the large majority of their paying base) for PvP?

    Too many times things have changed that adversely impacted PvE just so PvP players wouldn’t QQ so much.

    • Read the link to Kalon’s post because he pretty much nails why it is a good thing, and then please explain in more detail why you disagree so we can take “Blizzard want to wreck our PVE” at more than just face value whining.

      Been playing 6 years now, and PVP is just as much a part of the game as PVE even if it is a slightly smaller userbase, so they better damn well tune it. But then, so has feral been a TINY part of the WoW userbase, with bear tanking a freak sighting and cat useless through most of vanilla, and yet despite that feral has climbed a development mountain since then – by your argument, if majority userbase is all Blizz should care about, druids would still be f’ing HEALBOTS. Some of us like to play the entire game and need a break from endlessly trying to duplicate strats found on forums/Wowhead/Youtube to beat the same computer opponent over and over.

      • I started out playing a warlock and there were tons of changes made to fear and other lock abilities to ‘compensate’ for use in PvP. This has happened in many of the classes.

        Even you mentioned that at first cats were changed because PvP was mad at their burst abilities. Now they want to make a change based on bleed abilities.

        Point I’m making is that these changes sometimes have very negative impact on PvE play. I can’t recall a PvP change that ended up benefitting PvE play but there are many examples of the opposite.

        Your argument about druids being a small base is a red herring and does not apply to my point. See my point was that PvP changes hurt PvE but a change to the druid class does not hurt the mage class when it comes to PvE.

      • How is it a red herring? You opened your argument by saying Blizz should not risk (majority) PVE to fix (minority) PVP concerns because PVE is the larger player base. Using that argument, why risk other class PVE balance (majority) to fix the broken (minority) feral?

        Second, where is your argument that these changes will ‘wreck’ feral PVE?

        As for naming some PVP ‘fixes’ that buffed feral PVE:
        – the addition of Predator’s Swiftness, a ‘fix’ for feral arena complaints about lack of peels and awkwardness of control from in-form.
        – the overall shift from DD to DoTs improved our DPS significantly compared to other classes, while nerfing our burst. Rake buffed by a huge amount, Rip buffed, Mangle and Shred nerfed. All told we came out ++ after those changes.
        – the de-emphasis on the new Savage Roar and baking its damage into the new Mastery was arguably more from PVP complaints than PVE – SR was far harder to keep up at the right times in PVP than it was in PVE. Feral PVE rotation is now much simpler for it.

        As a vanilla PVE lock though, I can see where you are coming from – that class has been the target of non-stop PVP nerfs since the beginning, whereas feral has generally been on the receiving end of buffs.

      • “See my point was that PvP changes hurt PvE but a change to the druid class does not hurt the mage class when it comes to PvE.”

        Yes, it does hurt mage and everyone else’s PVE balance when a search of wow logs show ferals beating them by a higher margin on a DPS chart. In my experience, all the PVP QQ in existence pales in comparison to PVE griping over tank/DPS/healer dominance.

  5. How can you not see the difference between the two statements. A mage does X amount of DPS. It will do the exact amount od DPS no matter what they do to ferals. The change to ferals has ZERO impact on what the mage was doing and will still do. The mage was either happy or unhappy with their DPS and it had no connection to the feral change.

    That is way diffferent from PvP changes. A change to PvP WILL impact the DPS of PvE in that class. PvP changes have hurt and will continue to hurt PvE play. Can’t get around this simple fact.

    • Sorry, I don’t agree. You’re right that changing a feral’s PVE DPS does not directly affect a mage’s PVE DPS, but ignoring the fact that changing the feral’s DPS has changed his place on the DPS chart WITH RESPECT TO the mage. If the feral’s DPS is now noticably higher than the mage, the mage is not going to be a happy camper and he is going to QQ about this imbalance. The mage does not become happy or unhappy with his DPS* until he compares it to others*. If you do not agree that PVE players are very concerned with how their class ranks vs others within their role, then you have not been reading the Blizzard role forums.

      And again, instead of actually arguing specifically why the proposed changes are bad, you go with the “PVP changes hurt PVE” nonsense. Repeating it does not make it “fact”. You’re just whining, and need to find a new game without PVP if you cannot accept that PVP is part of each class and that it needs to be balanced as much as the PVE.

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