Jan 162012

First, a quick reminder. Haste’s value comes from two things: it boosts the amount of damage you do from your white attacks (because you get MORE…duh) and it increases the amount of energy you have, both passively (via small increases to energy regen rate) and actively via additional Omen procs.

Sounds good, right? Well, there’s a few problems with that.

Haste is useless if you’re not attacking something. Again, common sense, but it bears repeating. If you have to move off-target, your mastery/crit continues to affect your bleed ticks, while your haste just sits there.

Haste is terrible for bears. May not be an issue, but if you plan on bearcatting, then you want something that can affect Savage Defense, which means mastery. (Crit used to be nice, but is now devalued in bear due to the 2pT13 set bonus.)

Extra energy regeneration increases rotational difficulty. Ah, here’s the most important one. The cat rotation is very dynamic; you’ll have times where NOTHING is up, and you have to quickly execute your priorities to get everything going. You’ll have times where you need to dump energy ASAP to use Tiger’s Fury optimally. On the flipside, you’ll have times where you’re sitting around waiting for energy to regen.

The issue? Well, as haste increases, you have more #1 and #2 situations, and less #3. In these situations, fractional time matters. (What do I mean by this? Well, if you’re just waiting for energy to regen, you can use that Shred at 60 or 80 energy, it’s not really a big deal. If you’re trying to start or restart bleeds, each bit of delay starts to take away from uptime and thus damage.)  This is where in-game reality starts to diverge from simulations; Mew doesn’t have to deal with raid mechanics, crazy raid leaders, or out–of-game interruptions; all of which will end up causing you to spend more time at energy cap, which also makes haste less than useful. Ultraxion is a good example of this; relying on Mangle instead of Shred requires a few more keypresses, since Mangle uses less energy.

So, what am I saying? Yes, in sim theory, all the stats are roughly equal. In actuality, though, the priorities that make it easier to play perfectly, such as capping hit and expertise, and minimizing haste, will increase your DPS the most. What do you think?

 Posted by at 9:47 am

  22 Responses to “Why I hate haste (and you should too)”

  1. IMO EVERYTHING depends on encounter. If you have to move, or there are 2-3 targets then mastery > haste. If you can keep high uptime on (any) target, haste > mastery.
    For example, ship encounter – a little training and you can keep both Elites fully bleeding all the time. When first 2 dies, your dps could/should be >60k. Here mastery is > haste.
    Deathwing is almost the same. You put bleeds on DW arm, then switch to tentacle. Bleeds are ticking on both. Then you switch from tentacle to arm, when tentacle have ~3m hp (10man) or, in other words, lives for ~10s. Exception for last arm of course. Here again, mastery > maste.

    Having 2 targets that can’t be cleaved is huge advantage for feral that can bring you to the top. Here mastery is god.

    There are opposite situations. For example, you can have nearly 100% uptime on Shannox HC or Baleroc. Here haste is your friend, and I could say, it is more valuable than mastery. Even if you stack mastery, here shred should be first ability by damage done, keeping melee in 3 place.

    Anyway, if resume would be “everything depends on fight”, it would be too easy :) . Because we must count in our trinkets procs. Stacking haste + The Hungerer + Matrix Restabilizer + Bloodlust + Berserk can be incredible burst, but you overcap energy. It’s just one example. In such situation, I’d stack mastery. If I stack haste, I would prefer passive mastery trinkets.
    All these decisions are reason why I am playing feral. The most interesting and unique class in whole game :) .

  2. You can honestly make arguments for and against any stat. You say haste is useless when you aren’t on a target, except it’s still causing you to regenerate energy. Obviously if you cap it’s wasted, but usually I’m either low or empty on energy when I leave a target.

    Mastery is mostly useless in situations like Yor’sahj oozes where your bleeds don’t have a lot of time to tick through a full duration.

    Crit is the only stat that I think honestly has no “backfire” aside from the fact that it can partially go to waste if you crit on a target with 4 CP, wasting the extra combo point – but you still did 2x damage with that Shred or whatever. I guess you could also argue that crit increases rotational complexity via making you Bite more, but meh.

    Point is, different people like different setups. Saying “I like this setup, and you should like it too” is pretty subjective and very narrowminded.

    Not trying to call you out on your own blog here, Chase – I love you and everything you do for the feral community – but just encouraging you to think about it a little bit. :)

    • Hey Rush.

      A few things to think about relating to your assertions.

      “Mastery is mostly useless in situations like Yor’sahj oozes where your bleeds don’t have a lot of time to tick through a full duration.”
      On Heroic you can get most of a Rip off and a full Rake on the Ooze before it dies. Also don’t forget that if you planned right your bleeds got refreshed on Yor’Sahj before you ran to the Ooze. If you are on Heroic the enrage timer is pretty tight so doing the most damage to the boss possible is more important than mad swiping adds. If you take a look I pulled 25th on Heroic 25 Yor’Sahj this week with a heavy mastery build with only 799 haste.

      “Crit is the only stat that I think honestly has no “backfire””
      Crit is a fickle stat. Even reforging for every piece to have crit on it, you won’t swing your numbers much more then 5% (if crit was your lowest stat before). The issue with crit is that there is no assurance that you will actually crit for 55% of all your attacks. This isn’t to say it’s bad. However you can have a really awesome pull with 75% of your attacks critting, or you can have a really bad pull with only 35% of your attacks critting. The difference of 5% really isn’t that huge vs Haste or Mastery. Not really much better, and not really much worse.

      “Saying “I like this setup, and you should like it too” is pretty subjective and very narrow minded.”
      I think it was more of a catchy article title then a “You should do like I do” declaration. I don’t really think it’s narrow minded when we see time and time again that the difference between reforging strats give maybe a 300dps difference on the perfect situation. Our stats being so close isn’t a new thing, and to be honest a Haste build is the least forgiving when you make a mistake. For the very progressed of our readers they will do what works for them and for how their raid does the fight. For the majority of readers Mastery will likely be more forgiving as they learn the fights. This won’t work for everyone, but if it helps some it’s worth it.

      • Ignore the ranking comment. WOL became confused and though I was a bear. I had to stand in for one of our tanks who was dead right at the end of the fight.

  3. Would it be reasonable to actually determine which/how many bosses likely favor mastery VS haste in Progression kills? I don’t think many folks would dispute the various values of each, but if we determined that DS has a favor rating of mastery over haste because of 5/8 bosses, then so be it? In reality, I’ve spent thousands reforging each week moving from extremes to slight changes. Where I get stuck is determining an equal crit/mast/haste or go with a haste=mastery > crit. All of these have hit and exp cap prioritized first in secondaries..

  4. I go for mastery for pretty much that reason- I hate the playstyle which involves energy capping. Even with haste fully reforged off my gear I still have 9.5% unbuffed which means that with a berserk, a bloodlust and just one of my trinkets up I am struggling to spend all my energy.

    Since they sim out to be the same, I get hit and expertise capped and then slaughter my haste. Everyone likes to have energy to do things most of the time, but I find being stuck at 100 energy just as frustrating as being at 0 energy simply because it feels like I am wasting potential dps.

    And of course the high mastery/crit gives me the freedom to pick up tanking should the occasion call.

  5. I’ve found an overall damage increase when I switched to Haste from Mastery in the Dragon Soul raid, even on Heroics where add-switching and such come into play even more. It may be partially caused by my habits of “button-mashing” and not pooling energy too often, except for when I’m trying to use Rip before I waste a Shred’s combo points. Maybe it’s just my play-style that causes this to be the case, but then again, that’s just another one of the reasons that Feral is so fun to play.

    • Of course, I am only dealing damage as Cat on fights that are one-tanked, since none of the other people in my guild that could possibly tank are willing to get off of their lazy posteriors and do something about it.

  6. I couldn’t agree more, I much prefer Mastery over Haste in the current expansion.

    In Firelands I did what a lot of other people did and switched from Mastery to Haste when I got the tier bonuses and to be honest I quite enjoyed it for the encounters we were on.

    In DS I have tried just about every possible combination of stats from Haste builds to Mastery builds and balanced builds. For me personally, I find that the encounters (and quite possibly my personal playstyle) suit Mastery much better. I seem to put out significantly more (and consistent) dps with a Mastery build.

    In fact, I just got the Starcatcher Compass (397) but am loathed to put it in for my Matrix (384) because of the Haste v Mastery procs on them…

  7. I wish this weren’t on the front page presented as fact as it has little basis in actuality and is entirely opinion :/

    • Floofles – surely the point of a blog is to communicate one’s opinion?

      As an aside, personally I also lean towards mastery too as I enjoy the play style more.

    • Happy to present a counterargument, if you’ve got data to support it.

      • Most builds seem viable at the moment but there are in my experience encounter differences which appear iimportant at our guilds currently modest gear level in hc DS (our realm is not exactly progressed). For most of T11 and T12 I usually ran a mastery heavy build with absolutely minimal hit and expertise (I actually liked the additional complexity this introduced which reminded me of the way cats used to be).

        We are currently working hc Yor’Sahj and my swipes are important on the adds so I am running with hit and expertise and working heavier haste builds in case called upon to get emergency hits on an ooze thats getting through (although I have negoiated primary assignment to the boss). I do now seem to be spending less time pooling energy as a result and do not seem to be suffering noticeably from the limited drop in mastery and rise in haste in practice.

        I would agree with some of the comments above on crit iin particular the RNG is a problem I like to be able to give my RL consistency so that he can plan tactics. One comment i would make is that an open discussion with your RL can result in being assigned duties that play to our strengths as cats, its usually better for the raid and less frustrating for us.

        Apologies for the somewhat annecdotal nature of this post but at this stage my 4.3 statistics are still limited and dummies are not very helpful when considering boss mechanics. Given that my paid work is in statistics in low signal to noise situations I am loath to publish stats from relatively small samples.

  8. What would you recommend for Heroic Ultraxion? I’ve been going with a haste>crit>mastery build. I’ve also been dropping my expertise a bit on this fight to increase my haste and crit. Thanks

  9. Imho, Haste is probably our best all-round stat at the moment since T12. Mastery may sim higher but does absolutely nothing for burst or aoe situations which is why I personally have gone for Haste as it covers and benefits the majority of raid scenarios.

    The only fight I’ve seen it be pretty bad on in terms of energy capping is Ultraxion where we pop heroism at the beginning, (although it’s perfectly possible to opt out for a later heroism by using heroic will at the start of the encounter).

    Haste increases white damage, omen procs, amount of swipes in aoe situations (and omen procs on swipe of course which is gold) and increases the amount of shreds which can then crit. Aswell as increasing the chance of a successful Fury Swipe every 3 seconds. Coupled with hit and expertise cap, it all feels very fluid but you’ve certainly got to work at it (more energy regen so more button pushing).

    If Mastery is working for you then by all means stick with that, same goes for balancing all stats or going for Haste and Mastery, just don’t prioritize crit over the other two as a main stat.

  10. I was meaning more omen procs for Swipe.

  11. For whatever it’s worth (let’s be real — not much for this discussion), I’m 5/8 H in Dragon Soul right now; we’ll probably get Blackhorn this week.

    If we take the principle that haste is better for more static fights (which is an oversimplification but still), then I would think haste is better on these heroics at least:

    Morchock (but black phase and bear shifting might outweigh this), Zon’ozz (for the parts of the fight that matter, particularly the burn at the end), Yorsahj (if you’re like me and you stay on the boss and don’t switch to oozes), & Ultraxion (staying on boss + dps race).

    On that principle I’d say It’s not as great for Hagara (ice phase & also target switching) or Blackhorn (multi-dotting).

    No comment on Spine & Madness, but I’d imagine haste is good there too.

  12. idk if it’s just common sense talking… but that 3rd situation “too much haste complicates things”… i just wanna say, what?… having massive haste doesn’t complicate the rotation, it makes it easier… it helps you keep bleeds up with ease, thus increasing your dps (no bleeds = no damage)… if you don’t have the energy to shred for that 5th combo point or don’t have the haste to gain the energy you need and there’s only like 2 seconds left on rip, you’re fucked… just speaking out of personal experience.

    • Realize this is a few months old, right? :)

      Yeah, I was talking about haste vs. other stats for very well-geared toons, who don’t have the problems you mentioned above.

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