Pawkets' Feral DPS Guide & FAQ -- Updated for 6.0!

Moderator: Forum Administrators

User avatar
Dwade
Honored
Posts: 90
Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2014 1:14 pm

Re: Pawkets' Feral DPS Guide & FAQ -- Updated for 6.0!

Post by Dwade » Sat Oct 18, 2014 12:03 pm

Its just a simulation of a patchwerk style fight i.e. that's what the charts could possibly look like. Human error and fight mechanics are not accounted for.
Image

Thandorr
Honored
Posts: 74
Joined: Thu Oct 02, 2014 12:12 pm

Re: Pawkets' Feral DPS Guide & FAQ -- Updated for 6.0!

Post by Thandorr » Sat Oct 18, 2014 12:08 pm

I understand what sims represent... I just don't think that is accurate right now.

User avatar
aggixx
Exalted
Posts: 2291
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2011 7:49 pm
Contact:

Re: Pawkets' Feral DPS Guide & FAQ -- Updated for 6.0!

Post by aggixx » Sat Oct 18, 2014 12:12 pm

They are "accurate", just not optimized. I haven't changed it from using FoN after we fixed the bug with it. Its also using a bunch of enchants that they nerfed (and using the unnerfed values) so idk what will happen exactly when I update it.
Dwade wrote:Its just a simulation of a patchwerk style fight i.e. that's what the charts could possibly look like. Human error and fight mechanics are not accounted for.
Also just want to say this is a common misconception. The sim does not execute everything flawlessly and superhuman-like. It emulates human reaction times, among other things, and there is "error" via a strictly-defined action list that cannot possibly handle every single scenario perfectly. It is completely possible for a skilled player to match or even beat its results on a consistent basis.
ImageImage

Thandorr
Honored
Posts: 74
Joined: Thu Oct 02, 2014 12:12 pm

Re: Pawkets' Feral DPS Guide & FAQ -- Updated for 6.0!

Post by Thandorr » Sat Oct 18, 2014 12:15 pm

aggixx wrote:They are "accurate", just not optimized. I haven't changed it from using FoN after we fixed the bug with it. Its also using a bunch of enchants that they nerfed (and using the unnerfed values) so idk what will happen exactly when I update it.
This makes sense. It should add a little at least. I might be going crazy, but I felt way too strong to be middle of the pack right now. lol.

User avatar
Raysere
Posts: 22
Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2014 5:42 pm

Re: Pawkets' Feral DPS Guide & FAQ -- Updated for 6.0!

Post by Raysere » Sat Oct 18, 2014 12:40 pm

Statistics based on Mythic parses since 6.0 launch: Warcraft Logs

Pretty consistently 'bottom of the middle of the pack' across all fights. Even if you only take the top 5% of parses - so assumedly only people who are playing each spec very well, we're still in roughly the same place.

We'll need to wait until reset day to really see what effect the hotfixes have in this data though.

User avatar
aggixx
Exalted
Posts: 2291
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2011 7:49 pm
Contact:

Re: Pawkets' Feral DPS Guide & FAQ -- Updated for 6.0!

Post by aggixx » Sat Oct 18, 2014 12:43 pm

5% of the dataset is too narrow of a sample to have any significant meaning because of how few parses there are. Lowest I would go is 25%.

Also realize there's a lot more going on there than actual spec damage potential: relearning, lack of accurate theorycrafting, lack of giving a shit about optimization because its only 3 weeks of raiding, etc. While I'd say single target gameplay is pretty straightforward for Feral, our AoE behavior is completely different from before the patch. If people aren't taking adequate advantage of targetless combo points, or are still using Swipe like they used it before, then their damage is going to be shit and that brings the average down.

Even if you narrow the sample to 10 or 25% I promise you there's still people suffering from these things in this sample. There's very, very, very few people, if any, that have even close to a "mastery" of the current feral gameplay at 90 already.
ImageImage

User avatar
Raysere
Posts: 22
Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2014 5:42 pm

Re: Pawkets' Feral DPS Guide & FAQ -- Updated for 6.0!

Post by Raysere » Sat Oct 18, 2014 1:09 pm

aggixx wrote:5% of the dataset is too narrow of a sample to have any significant meaning because of how few parses there are. Lowest I would go is 25%.

Also realize there's a lot more going on there than actual spec damage potential: relearning, lack of accurate theorycrafting, lack of giving a shit about optimization because its only 3 weeks of raiding, etc. While I'd say single target gameplay is pretty straightforward for Feral, our AoE behavior is completely different from before the patch. If people aren't taking adequate advantage of targetless combo points, or are still using Swipe like they used it before, then their damage is going to be shit and that brings the average down.

Even if you narrow the sample to 10 or 25% I promise you there's still people suffering from these things in this sample. There's very, very, very few people, if any, that have even close to a "mastery" of the current feral gameplay at 90 already.
\

Valid points. But then again, we're not alone in having our gameplay changed, every spec is dealing with that issue to some degree or another. Several ranged specs, for example, are having to re-learn how to move efficiently after losing cast while moving mechanics.

Just to be clear I'm not trying to suggest this data is flawless, I just felt that the discussion today could benefit from another perspective besides Simcraft.

User avatar
aggixx
Exalted
Posts: 2291
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2011 7:49 pm
Contact:

Re: Pawkets' Feral DPS Guide & FAQ -- Updated for 6.0!

Post by aggixx » Sat Oct 18, 2014 1:16 pm

Yup, my point was more that some specs have to deal with these things more than others which distorts the statistics. I would say we're probably on the "heavy distortion" end of things but that's subjective I suppose.

And I agree, I was just pointing out some weaknesses in the data because that's not something everyone would realize.
ImageImage

User avatar
Dwade
Honored
Posts: 90
Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2014 1:14 pm

Re: Pawkets' Feral DPS Guide & FAQ -- Updated for 6.0!

Post by Dwade » Sat Oct 18, 2014 1:34 pm

Someone has to be lower/middle of the pack. Sucks that its us but at least its just for a very short time. Feral is looking pretty strong for WoD that is what we should be concerned about. And yeah the changes do have an effect, I was messing up my rotation a lot in some fights because I moved keybinds around to clear out some of the empty spaces from the ability pruning. For example I realized I had not used a single agi pot the whole raid on the last pull because I had moved that bind >.<
Image

teddabear
Revered
Posts: 346
Joined: Tue Dec 25, 2012 6:56 am

Re: Pawkets' Feral DPS Guide & FAQ -- Updated for 6.0!

Post by teddabear » Sat Oct 18, 2014 2:04 pm

LOL Mongoose!

If I was on a high pop realm I'd have to resub just for that.

Seems to still be fairly large balance changes still going on, I wouldn't get too caught up in Sims and Logs just yet.

It is interesting how much they disagree.

crayarc
Posts: 1
Joined: Sun Oct 19, 2014 1:23 am

Re: Pawkets' Feral DPS Guide & FAQ -- Updated for 6.0!

Post by crayarc » Sun Oct 19, 2014 1:34 am

Hiya fellow dr00dz,

Fantastic guide! Been reading it thoroughly the past few days and decided to make an acct here for the long haul :)

Anyways, I was wondering if Mongoose had been fixed for appropriate scaling yet? It's 120agi+30haste > Dancing Steel's 103agi from what I see in the AH. I would be using Mongoose (very) temporarily since I just bought the ilvl550 pvp weapon, which will be a placeholder for Garrosh's Pig Sticker when I have time to run Normal SoO. Trying to save myself a bit of gold here, heh.

Or I could just throw a Windsong on it, since crit and haste are our primary-secondary stats now. Imput would be great!
Found my answer! Lol.
Last edited by crayarc on Sun Oct 19, 2014 2:03 am, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
Tinderhoof
Exalted
Posts: 2234
Joined: Mon May 24, 2010 10:21 pm

Re: Pawkets' Feral DPS Guide & FAQ -- Updated for 6.0!

Post by Tinderhoof » Sun Oct 19, 2014 2:01 am

It has been fixed. You just won't likely see that until you apply it to your weapon.

smugler
Posts: 41
Joined: Thu Jul 17, 2014 10:38 pm

Re: Pawkets' Feral DPS Guide & FAQ -- Updated for 6.0!

Post by smugler » Sun Oct 19, 2014 5:26 am

the old +15 agil on gloves isnt it BiS right now, or is that also changed? Cause I can't find any stat that has more than +15 and the 15 agil is so much higher in sim

also i dunno which guide i saw this on, but i swear i saw a guide recommending +15 strength in the glove enchant, is that true or just funny?

User avatar
aggixx
Exalted
Posts: 2291
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2011 7:49 pm
Contact:

Re: Pawkets' Feral DPS Guide & FAQ -- Updated for 6.0!

Post by aggixx » Sun Oct 19, 2014 3:07 pm

The 15 agility glove enchant was nerfed, its something like 4 agility now. As far as I know Bracers - Greater Assault and Gloves - Precise Strikes are the only enchants worth using over the MoP ones.

There was a point in MoP where it was best to use the strength enchant so maybe that's what you're seeing. Strength doesn't give us anything anymore though so that's certainly not that case now.
ImageImage

User avatar
Amitty
Honored
Posts: 151
Joined: Tue Jun 24, 2014 4:28 am

Re: Pawkets' Feral DPS Guide & FAQ -- Updated for 6.0!

Post by Amitty » Sun Oct 19, 2014 4:06 pm

Guys, sorry for the spam, but I just wanted to share with you something.

http://i.imgur.com/4LtNc29.jpg

It's me on my second Feral Druid getting Rank 1 (at the time) on Garrosh Mythic without anyone logging. :D

User avatar
Untamable
Honored
Posts: 51
Joined: Tue May 27, 2014 1:57 am

Re: Pawkets' Feral DPS Guide & FAQ -- Updated for 6.0!

Post by Untamable » Sun Oct 19, 2014 10:02 pm

Amitty wrote:Guys, sorry for the spam, but I just wanted to share with you something.

http://i.imgur.com/4LtNc29.jpg

It's me on my second Feral Druid getting Rank 1 (at the time) on Garrosh Mythic without anyone logging. :D
was it before or after the hotfix went live? Just curious

*judging by the hunters dps and the WW I think it's after the hotfix (I could be wrong here). Still good work though
Name changed to Purr
Proraiders

User avatar
Amitty
Honored
Posts: 151
Joined: Tue Jun 24, 2014 4:28 am

Re: Pawkets' Feral DPS Guide & FAQ -- Updated for 6.0!

Post by Amitty » Sun Oct 19, 2014 10:46 pm

Thanks. ;) The hotfix was live for us when we did it. I did 1 thrash on the adds at the start and that's all the AOE I did.

User avatar
Óak
Honored
Posts: 64
Joined: Thu May 16, 2013 7:57 pm
Location: London

Re: Pawkets' Feral DPS Guide & FAQ -- Updated for 6.0!

Post by Óak » Sun Oct 19, 2014 11:41 pm

Amitty wrote:Guys, sorry for the spam, but I just wanted to share with you something.

http://i.imgur.com/4LtNc29.jpg

It's me on my second Feral Druid getting Rank 1 (at the time) on Garrosh Mythic without anyone logging.
Gah. Jealous of all you guys raiding post HP nerfs and the hotfix. I raided on Wednesday :(

User avatar
CowPond
Posts: 49
Joined: Mon Oct 20, 2014 12:02 am

Re: Pawkets' Feral DPS Guide & FAQ -- Updated for 6.0!

Post by CowPond » Mon Oct 20, 2014 12:08 am

For stat priorities, is there a soft cap/% of crit would shouldn't stack past? I'm past 55% right now but could put a few more pure crits in those yellow and blue sockets. Ty btw great guide thank you

User avatar
aggixx
Exalted
Posts: 2291
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2011 7:49 pm
Contact:

Re: Pawkets' Feral DPS Guide & FAQ -- Updated for 6.0!

Post by aggixx » Mon Oct 20, 2014 12:15 am

óak wrote:Gah. Jealous of all you guys raiding post HP nerfs and the hotfix. I raided on Wednesday :(
All EU parses have both of the boss HP nerfs already in effect. This is why you can see 11 EU parses on Garrosh above mine which is the highest US parse, because the vast majority of US guilds finished the lockout for the week before the 2nd nerf took effect on US realms.
CowPond wrote:For stat priorities, is there a soft cap/% of crit would shouldn't stack past? I'm past 55% right now but could put a few more pure crits in those yellow and blue sockets. Ty btw great guide thank you
That's a great question and something I've been meaning to look into. There is certainly a soft cap at 50% crit (53% accounting for suppression) thanks to Ferocious Bite, and especially Shred if you're specced into Incarnation, but I'm not sure if the reduction in value is large enough to actually shift the stat priority at that point.

Edit: Okay, did some poking around, and here's the stat weights for a profile stacking crit up to 53% and then all into haste.
Image
You can see crit still holds its spot as the best stat, but just barely. The difference between stacking max crit and then the rest in haste vs crit to soft cap and the rest in haste is negligible (~0.2%). Stacking straight crit is still superior for a non-incarnation profile though, since shred continues to scale past 53% for 100% of the fight.
ImageImage

Zstriker
Honored
Posts: 189
Joined: Thu Sep 12, 2013 12:55 pm

Re: Pawkets' Feral DPS Guide & FAQ -- Updated for 6.0!

Post by Zstriker » Mon Oct 20, 2014 4:06 am

aggixx wrote:
CowPond wrote:For stat priorities, is there a soft cap/% of crit would shouldn't stack past? I'm past 55% right now but could put a few more pure crits in those yellow and blue sockets. Ty btw great guide thank you
That's a great question and something I've been meaning to look into. There is certainly a soft cap at 50% crit (53% accounting for suppression) thanks to Ferocious Bite, and especially Shred if you're specced into Incarnation, but I'm not sure if the reduction in value is large enough to actually shift the stat priority at that point.

Edit: Okay, did some poking around, and here's the stat weights for a profile stacking crit up to 53% and then all into haste.
Image
You can see crit still holds its spot as the best stat, but just barely. The difference between stacking max crit and then the rest in haste vs crit to soft cap and the rest in haste is negligible (~0.2%). Stacking straight crit is still superior for a non-incarnation profile though, since shred continues to scale past 53% for 100% of the fight.
75% is crit cap was for yellow and 100% for white attacks
don't think anything changed since

User avatar
Tinderhoof
Exalted
Posts: 2234
Joined: Mon May 24, 2010 10:21 pm

Re: Pawkets' Feral DPS Guide & FAQ -- Updated for 6.0!

Post by Tinderhoof » Mon Oct 20, 2014 8:24 am

You have those two mixed up there. White attacks crit cap was at 76% something because glancing blows. Yellow attacks don't have glancing blows so the crit cap is like 102%

User avatar
aggixx
Exalted
Posts: 2291
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2011 7:49 pm
Contact:

Re: Pawkets' Feral DPS Guide & FAQ -- Updated for 6.0!

Post by aggixx » Mon Oct 20, 2014 10:31 am

In addition to what Tinder said, a lot has changed since then too. Glancing blows no longer happen against mobs within 3 levels of the player which means the crit cap for white attacks is 103% just like a normal special attack, and our Ferocious Bite as well as Shred from stealth have a doubled crit chance. The crit suppression of the boss applies to your crit chance before it is doubled which is why you get a cap of 53%.

(53-3)*2 = 100%

Of course, this is only a soft cap as Shred while unstealthed and all of your bleeds continue to benefit from crit past 53%.
ImageImage

bacevicius
Honored
Posts: 174
Joined: Tue Jul 16, 2013 12:58 pm

Re: Pawkets' Feral DPS Guide & FAQ -- Updated for 6.0!

Post by bacevicius » Mon Oct 20, 2014 11:06 am

ok i logged today and killed mythic garrosh on my 580 alt kitty... which i had left the orange agi crit gems in.. this buff that went out on the 17th i didnt know until today.. which I dont know if I could ever figure out why it was suggested to use full secondary stat gems in the first place when agi is still almost 3 to 1 on the sims even tho that 1 less ap comes out.. are the sims raking agi to much .. the reason im asking is because my 587 with all the proper gems all 20c/10/h/c whatever that had no agi., etc like we were sort of thinking was worth it comes up less on a target dummy than my 580 with way less crit more mast . agi gems. etc ted thats 9 ilvs under my mains Talisman 582? are we supposed to go back to mastery and agi with the damage buff .. After testing 62.93 crit on a target dummy and a crapton less agi... on my587 my 580 has 57 crt and more mastery and just dosent burst andmuch but stays at around 18.5k or so on thrash free swings if trinkets are going .. my crit /haste , no agi gemmd 587 drops to 17.5/18k ? what exactly is agility 1/ap .. now so why does simcraft put it at like 7.8 and all the secondarys in the 2.5 to 3 area.. someone tell me what im missing cause all we have to do know is stand there and press the buttons and try to sync tf with 5cp rip or just shred spam blind...

User avatar
Tinderhoof
Exalted
Posts: 2234
Joined: Mon May 24, 2010 10:21 pm

Re: Pawkets' Feral DPS Guide & FAQ -- Updated for 6.0!

Post by Tinderhoof » Mon Oct 20, 2014 11:26 am

What Sims are you looking at? I ask because most I have seen crit is hardly 3 to 1 vs agi. The latest weights Pawkets posted were in relation to an already crit loaded profile. Based on that agi will help more then crit by 3 to 1 only cause crit is maxed out on the character. If you replaced the crit with agi and ran the pass again crits importance would go up again. Remember stats will change weight based on what you have. They are not absolute.

Locked