Edgy/Raffy's Catus Thread (Not 6.0 Ready Yet)

[raffy]

Got some upgrades today and ran this again, worked great exept it reforges me same amount of mastery and crit. it says on the program that i would have 6671 mastery and 6670 crit, but when i reforge it gives me 6670 in both crit and mastery, which means it will proc crit. Well not too big of a deal as i found another solution which puts me a bit under exp cap, so nothing too bad.

Can you link your armory? I'd like to figure out the cause of this. Blizzard might be doing their fancy bankers rounding for their internal reforging amount.

[Eluu]

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/t ... ski/simple

Well seems the lower exp reforge option gives same problem and crit and mastery is same

[raffy]

When you reforge in-game you ended up with +1 extra haste? or hit or exp? M 6670, C 6670, H 6668?

[Eluu]

nope the 1 extra stat just dissapears

[raffy]

Ah, you have T-forged random suffix bracers. I'm probably rounding incorrectly. Thank you. I'll fix tonight.

[requital]

Could you link your armory?

Edit: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/n ... u/advanced

In your current gear, you are 2514 hit, 2712 exp (score 39467)

In Zephyrus, if you import "Reqfu" and hit bounds, you'll see that your lowest possible Hit is 2514.

If I set this as your lower bound with a 200 range, I get the following best solution: 2514 hit, 2630 expertise (score 39604)
7922 mastery, 7921 haste, 7920 crit

Code: Select all

Head : HitRating -> MasteryRating
Neck : HitRating -> HasteRating
Shoulders : HitRating -> HasteRating
Back : CritRating -> HasteRating
Chest : HitRating -> HasteRating
Hands : ExpertiseRating -> MasteryRating
Waist : ExpertiseRating -> CritRating
Legs : HasteRating -> CritRating
Feet : MasteryRating -> HasteRating
Ring1 : HasteRating -> CritRating
Ring2 : CritRating -> MasteryRating
Trinket1 : ExpertiseRating -> MasteryRating
MainHand : ExpertiseRating -> MasteryRating
OffHand : HasteRating -> MasteryRating

Did you set the Hit/Exp @ 2514? or set it to 2550 to get those values? Either way love Catus love the work that has been done on it hope in the future something like this exists for a monk!

[raffy]

Did you set the Hit/Exp @ 2514? or set it to 2550 to get those values?

I used "Bounds" to get 2514, and then entered "2514" into "Target", and clicked "Reforge"

The reforger was originally designed for Feral (specifically DoC), where being below the hit or exp cap is absurdly silly. Wasting a clearcasting proc, or a DoC charge, or a 4p T15 charge, is extremely costly and not worth a few extra secondary points.

WW, especially at higher ilvl, appear to be much more GCD (and energy) capped, so I could see dropping below on either stat (although with Dual Wield, hit seems fine above the cap, and you still get partial value from Expertise beyond soft cap.)

Possibly, I can use the range to go under the target as well (as you suggest), so instead of [Target, Target+Range], I can do [Target-Range, Target+Range] and then add an additional penalty for being under the target. Ultimately, all I need is just a good ranking/score so I can put the solutions into some kind of order.

[requital]

Did you set the Hit/Exp @ 2514? or set it to 2550 to get those values?

I used "Bounds" to get 2514, and then entered "2514" into "Target", and clicked "Reforge"

The reforger was originally designed for Feral (specifically DoC), where being below the hit or exp cap is absurdly silly. Wasting a clearcasting proc, or a DoC charge, or a 4p T15 charge, is extremely costly and not worth a few extra secondary points.

WW, especially at higher ilvl, appear to be much more GCD (and energy) capped, so I could see dropping below on either stat (although with Dual Wield, hit seems fine above the cap, and you still get partial value from Expertise beyond soft cap.)

Possibly, I can use the range to go under the target as well (as you suggest), so instead of [Target, Target+Range], I can do [Target-Range, Target+Range] and then add an additional penalty for being under the target. Ultimately, all I need is just a good ranking/score so I can put the solutions into some kind of order.

Is your goal to eventually end up with a Catus5 style program or are you stopping it at reforging?

[raffy]

Did you set the Hit/Exp @ 2514? or set it to 2550 to get those values?

I used "Bounds" to get 2514, and then entered "2514" into "Target", and clicked "Reforge"

The reforger was originally designed for Feral (specifically DoC), where being below the hit or exp cap is absurdly silly. Wasting a clearcasting proc, or a DoC charge, or a 4p T15 charge, is extremely costly and not worth a few extra secondary points.

WW, especially at higher ilvl, appear to be much more GCD (and energy) capped, so I could see dropping below on either stat (although with Dual Wield, hit seems fine above the cap, and you still get partial value from Expertise beyond soft cap.)

Possibly, I can use the range to go under the target as well (as you suggest), so instead of [Target, Target+Range], I can do [Target-Range, Target+Range] and then add an additional penalty for being under the target. Ultimately, all I need is just a good ranking/score so I can put the solutions into some kind of order.

Is your goal to eventually end up with a Catus5 style program or are you stopping it at reforging?

I will keep iterating on it, but Catus is my main focus. Zephyrus should have a paper doll eventually, like Catus. I just need to abstract the Catus one enough such that the two are using the same code.

Catus has a custom Feral simulator that will be increasingly used for analysis inside Catus. For example, I'm trying to get this gear comparison feature ironed out so people can start doing analysis for their own gear and potential upgrades. I will probably not have similar support for Zephyrus.

[requital]

Well whatever you decide to do with it thank you for the work.

[Photek]

It seems Zephyrus doesn't like umlauts on vowels, I get an error while exporting "No API Data" (can't post the rest of the message, forum marks it as spam ._:) Character is Photëk on EU C'Thun btw.

Edit: Fixed this for both player lookup and importer. Thanks for the report.

Thanks for the release/fix.

[Sorcerer]

Reforger works amazingly well.


As a tip for the reforger, while looking for better RoRo setup:
step1. use same orange gems
step2. use same orange gems with exception to 1 (untill you rotate all other 2)
step3. use same orange gems with exception to 2 (rotate in pairs)
step4. as above, (rotate in 2 different pairs like All haste + 1 crit + 1 mastery)

This can net you down with even better reforge. My guess raffy at some point will add gem simulation to reforger.

[raffy]

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/t ... ski/simple

Well seems the lower exp reforge option gives same problem and crit and mastery is same

Latest Catus and Zephyrus have this fixed. Thanks for the report.

Specifically in your case, I was rounding the wrong way and giving your T-forged bracers 908 haste instead of 907 (I believe the ilvl budget produces 907.92 haste to be exact.) Your current reforging remains #1 suggestion after this fix.

If anyone else finds upgrade item issues, let me know. This code is mainly developed by talking with various simc developers as it was essentially a black box to me without their help.

As an aside: I also changed the underlying upgrade system to work with raw item levels, rather than upgrade levels. This allows any piece of gear to be internally scaled dynamically, so I can render "stats under PvP 496 cap" or "challenge mode" or whatever. This also means that via the CompactGear rep, there will be an "i" option to set the ilvl of any piece of gear you request.

I also played with a more complex scoring function coupled with searching under the hit/exp target (down to the reforgable minimum or target - range, whichever is larger). If you're hit or exp ends up being over the cap, there is no penalty, because naturally you'll just have a smaller rune proc, but being under hit and/or exp is a bit more complex, as this will currently inflate your score. I tried just subtracting the distance from the goal (on the negative side), but that still causes an unfair trade since 1 hit lost => 1 crit gain => 2 effective proc value. I haven't enabled this yet because it's still not working as I expect, but I'm sure there's a good solution around the corner. In the mean time, I removed identical (but different) reforging from the suggestion menu, and increased the maximum number of retained results to 400.

Reforger works amazingly well.
As a tip for the reforger, while looking for better RoRo setup:
step1. use same orange gems
step2. use same orange gems with exception to 1 (untill you rotate all other 2)
step3. use same orange gems with exception to 2 (rotate in pairs)
step4. as above, (rotate in 2 different pairs like All haste + 1 crit + 1 mastery)
This can net you down with even better reforge. My guess raffy at some point will add gem simulation to reforger.

I added a button to Catus that does a poor mans version of this: it looks at your profile without enchants/gems, and replaces all your orange gems accordingly. Your algorithm seems much smarter and this is something I definitely could automate.

Both Catus and Zephyrus's "Bounds" information include "w/o gem/enchants."

[raffy]

I now have the ability to do exhaustive enchant and gem reforging, although I'm restricting it to your currently equipped orange gems.

This does blow up the search space of the reforger, however the impact was much less than I expected.

It can automatically scan all your active slots for possible enchants. Currently, there are only 3 hit/exp variations (Cloak: Crit/Hit, Gloves:Exp/NotExp, Boots:Hit/NoHit). This blows up the Hit/Exp space by a factor of 8 (2*2*2).

Probably only the cloak is worth permuting (especially for Feral.)

For the 1:1:1 search, an extreme gear set might have 10 orange gems, which is actually only 66 unique permutations:

Code: Select all

1111111111	1111111112	1111111113	1111111122	1111111123
1111111133	1111111222	1111111223	1111111233	1111111333
1111112222	1111112223	1111112233	1111112333	1111113333
1111122222	1111122223	1111122233	1111122333	1111123333
1111133333	1111222222	1111222223	1111222233	1111222333
1111223333	1111233333	1111333333	1112222222	1112222223
1112222233	1112222333	1112223333	1112233333	1112333333
1113333333	1122222222	1122222223	1122222233	1122222333
1122223333	1122233333	1122333333	1123333333	1133333333
1222222222	1222222223	1222222233	1222222333	1222223333
1222233333	1222333333	1223333333	1233333333	1333333333
2222222222	2222222223	2222222233	2222222333	2222223333
2222233333	2222333333	2223333333	2233333333	2333333333
3333333333

So at most, it's 8x as many hit/exp combinations (which is displayed in the progress bar), and 66x more for the 1:1:1 search, but the 1:1:1 search is still dwarfed by the hit/exp.

For a more realistic configuration, it's 2x and 28x. Which overall is like 2-3x slower.

[Arnathis]

Having a bit of a problem using catus. Bear with me as I'm not the most technically savvy person out there but I updated Java, and tried to run the .jar as instructed but got stuck at a small loading bar for over a half an hour. If anyone can help me I'd appreciate it, I've tried the process multiple times and gotten the same result.

If anyone just wants to run me through their catus and post what they get back that'd be a great temporary fix. As always, thank you for your help.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/a ... his/simple

[Tigercrane]

I think Zephyrus has an issue with granting the Orc expertise bonus to both hands even if only one hand incurs the bonus.

I'm using TF Hand of the Dark Animus MH/Wu-Lai OH, and its counting the expertise that Wu-Lai gets for being a fist weapon towards HoDA, which means my main hand is missing a full 1% expertise.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/s ... ane/simple

[raffy]

Having a bit of a problem using catus. Bear with me as I'm not the most technically savvy person out there but I updated Java, and tried to run the .jar as instructed but got stuck at a small loading bar for over a half an hour. If anyone can help me I'd appreciate it, I've tried the process multiple times and gotten the same result.

If anyone just wants to run me through their catus and post what they get back that'd be a great temporary fix. As always, thank you for your help.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/a ... his/simple

The first thing Catus downloads is a 10 MB file from simulationcraft.org -- 10MB/30min ... you're on a dial-up modem? I do not include this in the install as it would directly increase the size of the download. Just let it download.

I think Zephyrus has an issue with granting the Orc expertise bonus to both hands even if only one hand incurs the bonus.

I'm using TF Hand of the Dark Animus MH/Wu-Lai OH, and its counting the expertise that Wu-Lai gets for being a fist weapon towards HoDA, which means my main hand is missing a full 1% expertise.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/s ... ane/simple

Sorry, I had no idea how this works, I just blindly implemented it. Are you basically saying that if both hands don't match the racial, it's as if you don't have it? Because you need the smaller of the two to be >= the hit/exp target?

Edit: I will only apply the racial's if both weapons match the racial type. I'll update this tomrrow with the gem/enchant reforger changes. Thanks for the report.

[Arnathis]

Hey, Raffy, no I'm on high speed lol, 60 down, 8 up. I'll try letting it run.

[Arnathis]

Been running for 3 hours now, should i let it continue? lol

[Nahela]

I'm guessing he's having the same issue I'm having with Zephyrus. Catus runs fine for me, but Zephyrus gets stuck. It does the progress bar for Reforging, then goes to a 'cycling' bar that loops indefinitely and never comes back with results. Haven't been able to figure out why yet.

[Arnathis]

That's not quite what I'm experiencing, it sounds like you're at least able to open up Zephyrus, I can't even open catus. I run the .jar file and it opens up a small loading bar that keeps cycling over and over and is titled "Catus: Loading Data" with a link to "simulationcraft.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/engine/dbc/sc_item_data.inc" which I assume is where it's trying to gather data from. I've let it cycle for over 4 hours now lol.

[raffy]

That's not quite what I'm experiencing, it sounds like you're at least able to open up Zephyrus, I can't even open catus. I run the .jar file and it opens up a small loading bar that keeps cycling over and over and is titled "Catus: Loading Data" with a link to "simulationcraft.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/engine/dbc/sc_item_data.inc" which I assume is where it's trying to gather data from. I've let it cycle for over 4 hours now lol.

Can you download the file directly?
https://code.google.com/p/simulationcra ... m_data.inc (download raw file)
If that works, rename the file to "sc_item_data.txt" and place it inside a folder "simulationcraft.googlecode.com" inside the "Cache" folder inside Catus.
Also, you can try launching Catus from the command line, via "java -jar Catus.jar" and see if it spits out any kind of error message. I've never seen the boot/download process fail so I'm at a loss unless I have more information about what's happening.
Or maybe you have Java blocked from downloading external resources? What OS are you using?

Edit: I just checked this on both Vista and Win7, seems fine. Is it possible you are launching Catus from the compressed archive? Make sure you extract it to a directory. Catus needs to be able to write to the various included sub directories.

I'm guessing he's having the same issue I'm having with Zephyrus. Catus runs fine for me, but Zephyrus gets stuck. It does the progress bar for Reforging, then goes to a 'cycling' bar that loops indefinitely and never comes back with results. Haven't been able to figure out why yet.

How long have you waited? And what settings were you using? The algorithm runs in two pieces, but the progress bar only tracks the one part, since from my testing, it was the dominate one. The algorithm is still working, it's just busy working through the Mastery/Haste/Crit balancing for all the Hit/Exp solutions it found. Try reducing the search space by decreasing the Range. Also, please link your armory (or whatever profile was causing you issues) so I can test this stuff on my end.

[Nahela]

How long have you waited? And what settings were you using? The algorithm runs in two pieces, but the progress bar only tracks the one part, since from my testing, it was the dominate one. The algorithm is still working, it's just busy working through the Mastery/Haste/Crit balancing for all the Hit/Exp solutions it found. Try reducing the search space by decreasing the Range. Also, please link your armory (or whatever profile was causing you issues) so I can test this stuff on my end.

I left it running for about an hour on the default settings (Hit&Exp 2550 / Range 100 / Gap 0) and 'Automatic', though I've tried on 'All Cores' as well. It gets through the first part fairly quickly, maybe a minute or two. I'll try it with a decreased range and see what happens.

Here's my armory for reference: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/b ... a/advanced

EDIT: By the way, thanks for putting some time into a WW version of this. If I can get this working it's going to make those gear changes way way less of a headache.
EDIT2: Okay I just ran it at Range 50 and it finished completely in about 2 minutes o.O My post-reforge results for the 50 didn't quite end up right. Haste ended up around 10 points higher than the display showed, for some reason.
EDIT3: 75 finally ended after around 20 minutes. I suppose if the 100 runs exponentially longer, I could have simply not waited long enough. These results worked perfectly.

[raffy]

The next update will utilize all cores much more efficiently, it will also figure out the proper gems and enchants.

@Nahela
I'm finalizing the gem reforger part, but here is a reforging for you that's pretty good: 2551 Hit, 2551 Exp, 6791 Mastery, 6789 Haste, 6789 Crit
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/298 ... hyrus4.png

Code: Select all

Reforges: 9 differences
              Neck: None                                     => Hit > Haste
          Shoulder: None                                     => Hit > Haste
              Back: None                                     => Mastery > Haste
             Chest: Mastery > Haste                          => Expertise > Haste
             Wrist: None                                     => Haste > Mastery
             Hands: None                                     => Critical Strike > Hit
          Finger 1: None                                     => Critical Strike > Expertise
         Trinket 1: None                                     => Mastery > Critical Strike
         Main Hand: Mastery > Haste                          => None

Enchant: 2 differences
Back: Enchant Cloak - Superior Critical Strike => Enchant Cloak - Accuracy
Hands: Enchant Gloves - Greater Haste => Enchant Gloves - Super Expertise

Neck : HitRating -> HasteRating
Shoulders : HitRating -> HasteRating
Back : MasteryRating -> HasteRating
Chest : ExpertiseRating -> HasteRating
Wrists : HasteRating -> MasteryRating
Hands : CritRating -> HitRating
Legs : MasteryRating -> CritRating
Ring1 : CritRating -> ExpertiseRating
Trinket1 : MasteryRating -> CritRating

Edit:
The main advantage of exhaustive is you click the button once, and it finds you the best possible answer. The main disadvantage is that it's going to be slow if the space of possibilities is huge.

To get a massive speed increase, you can just uncheck a slot. It will reforge almost instantly if 1 or more slots are frozen.

[Nahela]

Good tip to know on the slot-freeze. Ended up using my 75 results which were: 2550 Hit/Exp, 6793 Mastery, 6791 Haste, 6787 Crit.

Looking forward to future updates and I appreciate the quick responses & continued work!