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FoN vs SotF

Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 1:23 am
by Ulthwé
I was wondering, now that 5.4 is live... How does Force of Nature stand vs Soul of the Forest for Feral?

Re: FoN vs SotF

Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 5:36 am
by Synesis
I personally tried it out earlier today on Immerseus and I find FoN is competitive if not better in terms of dps. The amount of burst you can dish out is pretty noticeable (this is with a 530 RoR) but the main issue I had is keeping in mind to trigger it during an RoR proc.

Feral's rotation is clunky enough as is(I do have DoC so... added difficultly as is) and trying to note an RoR proc with FoN, while doing raid mechanics and avoiding everything is a little much. Even on a fight as easy as Immerseus I had trouble with keeping tabs on RoR + FoN. I reverted back about 6 tries in to SotF and my dps didn't really move too much; I'd say, with the right usage of FoN, is maybe ~2% increase at best. For the amount of gain you get, it's not worth it IMHO, but if you're able to keep it up while not messing up during an encounter, all the power to ya.

Re: FoN vs SotF

Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 6:34 am
by Qualiti
Synesis wrote:I personally tried it out earlier today on Immerseus and I find FoN is competitive if not better in terms of dps. The amount of burst you can dish out is pretty noticeable (this is with a 530 RoR) but the main issue I had is keeping in mind to trigger it during an RoR proc.

Feral's rotation is clunky enough as is(I do have DoC so... added difficultly as is) and trying to note an RoR proc with FoN, while doing raid mechanics and avoiding everything is a little much. Even on a fight as easy as Immerseus I had trouble with keeping tabs on RoR + FoN. I reverted back about 6 tries in to SotF and my dps didn't really move too much; I'd say, with the right usage of FoN, is maybe ~2% increase at best. For the amount of gain you get, it's not worth it IMHO, but if you're able to keep it up while not messing up during an encounter, all the power to ya.
The problem isn't so much RoR + FoN it's RoRo + FoN + DoC. But I've been using FoN since patch, I've been getting mixed results from 6.5-8.5% of my DPS being FoN. I'm sure a lot of that plays into the complexity that it adds, but it's not too bad as long as you try to sit on 1 FoN for rune procs, and try to keep up the FoN rake you should gain DPS.

Is there a mod that will properly track FoN rake + personal rake my current tracker is having conflicting issues.

Re: FoN vs SotF

Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 12:01 pm
by cg1351
I personally enjoy fon now that i've got use to it and my dps has gone up nicely. Fon does about 6-7% of my overall damage and it allows us to get some burst in.

Re: FoN vs SotF

Posted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 3:44 pm
by Tempo
is fon only any good with a rune?

how are u macroing it?

Re: FoN vs SotF

Posted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 6:32 am
by raffy
I've yet to use it in raids (I've had to tank a bunch of fights due to conflicting raider schedules) so I'm purely speaking from what I've seen in sims:

FoN is a decent DPS improvement over SotF on Patchwerk, which basically means it's the best choice in general. But that DPS isn't guaranteed and has a bunch of strings attached, similar to DoC, but lower frequency.

FoN is very dependent on good execution. Obviously if you forget to cast FoN completely, it's worth 0 DPS. FoN requires alignment with the tail end of trinket procs (to maximize overlap), which might make it undesirable for progression. Personally, now that we're working on heroics, I will be using FoN for normal encounters.

FoN is easier to execute (as a human) with higher RPPM values. High ilvl Rune and Renataki are ideal in practice, but almost all of the trinkets work (because they provide agility procs.)

To get an idea about FoN damage scaling, download Catus and import your Kitty (and adjust the remaining settings to mirror your raid). I offer a feature down near the bottom, "Computable Statistics > FoN", which will generate a table of FoN damage breakpoints specific to your gear, buffs, procs, etc.

FoN probably works best with HotW (especially if you use a Rune.)

Re: FoN vs SotF

Posted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 10:14 am
by Alpheus
raffy wrote:I've yet to use it in raids (I've had to tank a bunch of fights due to conflicting raider schedules) so I'm purely speaking from what I've seen in sims:

FoN is a decent DPS improvement over SotF on Patchwerk, which basically means it's the best choice in general. But that DPS isn't guaranteed and has a bunch of strings attached, similar to DoC, but lower frequency.

FoN is very dependent on good execution. Obviously if you forget to cast FoN completely, it's worth 0 DPS. FoN requires alignment with the tail end of trinket procs (to maximize overlap), which might make it undesirable for progression. Personally, now that we're working on heroics, I will be using FoN for normal encounters.

FoN is easier to execute (as a human) with higher RPPM values. High ilvl Rune and Renataki are ideal in practice, but almost all of the trinkets work (because they provide agility procs.)

To get an idea about FoN damage scaling, download Catus and import your Kitty (and adjust the remaining settings to mirror your raid). I offer a feature down near the bottom, "Computable Statistics > FoN", which will generate a table of FoN damage breakpoints specific to your gear, buffs, procs, etc.

FoN probably works best with HotW (especially if you use a Rune.)
I found FoN to be very useful on Immerseus Heroic, Norushen heroic and Iron Juggernaut Heroic. Haven't progressed further yet, but I'd be using it for Dark Shamans as well if I wasn't tanking (we're spreading them out). I'll probably use it on Malkorok as well. It might be worthwhile to use on Paragons as well but I'm probably tanking that one.

Re: FoN vs SotF

Posted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 7:01 pm
by cg1351
Literally just use it on every single fight does between 5-8% of my damage played properly normally around 7% single target and i'm doing really decent numbers atm :) Considered using sotf for aoe and shit but it still didn't feel like it was making as much of an impact as fon does.

Re: FoN vs SotF

Posted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 8:43 pm
by cg1351
raffy wrote: FoN probably works best with HotW (especially if you use a Rune.)
Doc buffs the fon rake damage and doesn't consume a stack? Surely that wins especially during rune procs.

Re: FoN vs SotF

Posted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 9:08 pm
by aggixx
cg1351 wrote: Doc buffs the fon rake damage and doesn't consume a stack? Surely that wins especially during rune procs.
Indeed, it's much better with DoC until they fix that bug. But afterwards, definitely HotW.

Re: FoN vs SotF

Posted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 9:34 pm
by raffy
I meant in terms of practical DPS: I feel like could play HotW/FoN more effectively than I could DoC/FoN, but I agree with you guys if you factor in the FoN+DoC bug.

Edit: has anyone reconfirmed this bug is still active? I kind of expected this would be fixed along with the other tweaks from today's tweaks.

Re: FoN vs SotF

Posted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 10:18 pm
by Tinderhoof
I just tested it and the bug is still there. No trinkets proc'd and SR not up hits for 9998. With DoC up and no trinkets proc'd hits for 14600.

Re: FoN vs SotF

Posted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:40 am
by aggixx
I also reconfirmed it earlier today before implementing it into SimC.

PS: Tinder, I don't think your numbers line up to be 30% =P

Re: FoN vs SotF

Posted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 8:23 am
by ShmooDude
Looks like this was hotfixed recently as DoC no longer applies to the FoN rake. Probably show up in today's hotfix list.

Re: FoN vs SotF

Posted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 8:27 am
by aggixx
Yep, definitely fixed.

Re: FoN vs SotF

Posted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 8:40 am
by berberos
My fluiddruid virginity goes here.
Hello for everyone.

Was just about to write about the fix and got stuck on all those signature avatar things. Been wondering couple days what to choose for todays first immerseus hc raid. Guess the tranquility doesnt heal the adds but with the small burst FoN offers, I think i'm going for that one but still not sure. So you good ppl think FoN and HotW would be the best at least on that fight? Done sims and dummy with all combos and still not sure.

Berberos-EU-Shattered Hand

Re: FoN vs SotF

Posted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 9:03 am
by Alpheus
ShmooDude wrote:Looks like this was hotfixed recently as DoC no longer applies to the FoN rake. Probably show up in today's hotfix list.
Sadface

Re: FoN vs SotF

Posted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 1:29 pm
by Tremnen
Synesis wrote:I personally tried it out earlier today on Immerseus and I find FoN is competitive if not better in terms of dps. The amount of burst you can dish out is pretty noticeable (this is with a 530 RoR) but the main issue I had is keeping in mind to trigger it during an RoR proc.

Feral's rotation is clunky enough as is(I do have DoC so... added difficultly as is) and trying to note an RoR proc with FoN, while doing raid mechanics and avoiding everything is a little much. Even on a fight as easy as Immerseus I had trouble with keeping tabs on RoR + FoN. I reverted back about 6 tries in to SotF and my dps didn't really move too much; I'd say, with the right usage of FoN, is maybe ~2% increase at best. For the amount of gain you get, it's not worth it IMHO, but if you're able to keep it up while not messing up during an encounter, all the power to ya.
FoN Is really nice in P2. Not only do the adds rake but they cast entangling roots so you can cast them as instant cast roots to hold back the adds.

Re: FoN vs SotF

Posted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 4:05 pm
by cg1351
Them fixing that bug sucks it went from 6-7% of my damage to 3-4% would that make sotf better?

Re: FoN vs SotF

Posted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 6:00 pm
by aggixx
No, and that's not possible. Look at a bigger dataset and you'll find they didn't lose even close to that much damage. If they were doing 6.5% before they should be doing at least ~5.65% now.

Re: FoN vs SotF

Posted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 9:58 pm
by cg1351
Maybe the rip buff makes a larger portion of our damage done from ourselves lowering the damage of the treants %. But it is what it is i could just be putting less focus on them because i aint trying to use them as well now.

Re: FoN vs SotF

Posted: Sat Sep 28, 2013 9:22 am
by Blyth
How do you even play FoN? Pop all 3 Treants @ Pull (with all trinket proccs and TF up) and use 1 Treant as soon as you have 3 Charges and save ~2 for a RoRo procc?

Re: FoN vs SotF

Posted: Sat Sep 28, 2013 12:21 pm
by AsgardFM
Blyth wrote:How do you even play FoN? Pop all 3 Treants @ Pull (with all trinket proccs and TF up) and use 1 Treant as soon as you have 3 Charges and save ~2 for a RoRo procc?
I think the idea is to never let yourself get to three charges (prevents wasted DPS) but to spam as many as you have within the last 2-3 seconds of a Rune proc. Their stats dynamically update with yours (so after Rune ends their crit/haste return to standard levels) but the Rake is cast on spawn and remains at the same damage.

Re: FoN vs SotF

Posted: Sat Sep 28, 2013 5:06 pm
by raffy
I recall testing this in simulation: it's a DPS loss to hold onto the first tree during the opener, and use them ~10 sec into the fight. This matters less and less as the fight time increases, but you only get 3 + Floor[fight_duration / 20] potential FoN charges per fight, so you lose 1/2 of a charge by sitting on the first one.

Code: Select all

3 + Floor[7min / 20sec] = 21
3 + Floor[(7min - 9sec) / 20sec] = 20
21/20 => 5% more DPS (from FoN)
This is heavily dependent on the fight duration, as obviously there are fight durations where this doesn't matter, and waiting that extra 9.5sec for 3 super Treant Rakes doesn't cost you a charge.

It's basically a 50/50 gamble that the remainder of (fight_duration / 20) > 10, and (N+1)/N goes to 0% gain as the fight_duration increases.

Currently, I've been using all 3 right before my Rune/Rena fade on the opener. Since our opener is pretty hectic, I find this easier to execute in practice.

Re: FoN vs SotF

Posted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 7:29 pm
by Grenache
I have been able to find the treant Rake stats in WoL but it is not included in my personal damage stats. Is there an easy way to see treant Rake and melee attacks as an actual percentage of my damage via WoL? Mainly just to help me improve my usage over time.