How and where do I learn from good ferals?

Face-rippin fun.

Moderator: Forum Administrators

Post Reply
iamcat
Posts: 8
Joined: Fri Nov 22, 2013 11:00 am

How and where do I learn from good ferals?

Post by iamcat » Sun Nov 24, 2013 12:04 am

Hi druids

Im a new feral intrested in learning how to dps

What should I look at in a log if I want to know if i did good or not? roar+rip+rake uptimes are the obvious ones but what about damage spread? Ie how many % of my total dmg comes from rip/rake/melee? I usually sit at 25-30% rip depending on how focused i am and if i get a good blood in the water rip i go up to above 30%. thats more than the r1 logs have from rip.. why is that? am i focusing too much on refreshing rip? basically i refresh it whenever it becomes green in my affdots-feral, regardless of ticks remaining. i guess things like multistrike trinket and thrash makes rip a bit lower %wise. also no i dont have rune

where can i get to know the basics of spell priority in different situations? like, how many targets for rake tabbing and when do i swipe spam? efficient rotation on 3 targets? just small tips and tricks that usually come with time but a little push in the start cant hurt =)

So far I've had to change a few things in my playstyle coming from my rogue and monk. My rogue and monk are 570~ ilvl and I raid with them every week. Mostly on my rogue for heroics but sometimes on my monk. That said I no longer worry about haste ever. However now when starting up a feral Ive noticed a few things.

1. I have trouble regurarly pulling of 5 cp doc rips because the insta touch buff run off before I reach 4cp or just after i get 4cp when im global locked. Im trying to sit at high energy most of the time but I feel I almost need TF everytime I want to doc rip.

2. I starve on energy whenever there is aoe. I mean reallly really starve. rake tabbing makes me never able to pull of any big savage roars and just drains me of energy every 10 sec.

3. Is it worth it to extend the rips with mangle before going to a new target on fights like fallen protectors? I rake on anything close to me but I really dislike rake tabbing because it feels like wasting combo points all the time, although i guess i just have to deal with that since its obv a massive dps gain but still.

4. is TF used on CD aggressively? ie as soon as it comes off and not a second later? i feel i want to delay TF most of the time for timing it with a doc rip to make it bigger, but sometimes that means waiting upwards of 5-10 seconds. is it really worth it to use and just rake mangle spam? :p


thanks =) any question answered and any help given is much appreciated =)

inferiorlol
Honored
Posts: 50
Joined: Wed Aug 21, 2013 12:24 pm

Re: How and where do I learn from good ferals?

Post by inferiorlol » Sun Nov 24, 2013 12:14 am

I try to infer how people play by something that looks like this expression:

http://worldoflogs.com/reports/agduvszo ... SUCCESS%29

The single target fights are sort of straight forward but that expression feels really useful for me to look at for example how people play on Fallen Protectors since I seem to rank lower on that one than on single target fights. You sort of go throught the fight in your head and think how you would play compared to the guy you are analyzing.

Then you can use Comparebot to get a good view how your uptimes and damage distribution looks compared to other.

Regarding question 3 I tried to get some discussion going here but it didn't really take off http://fluiddruid.net/forum/viewtopic.p ... 275#p20358

Helistar
Honored
Posts: 102
Joined: Tue Sep 18, 2012 4:01 pm

Re: How and where do I learn from good ferals?

Post by Helistar » Mon Nov 25, 2013 6:48 am

I'm not sure I'm up to date on everything, so don't hesitate to double-check my answers.

It's difficult to infer stuff from WoL: getting top DPS means refreshing DoT at the right time, and this is not easy to see on WoL where you cannot see exactly when auras are refreshed and the CPs. Apart from the uptimes, you should look at the dot tick hit/crit damage, which indicates refreshing at the right time (or extreme luck with trinket procs... :)).
It's even harder to infer stuff on multi-target fights....

1. DoC is harder that HotW gameplay-wise. If you're starting with feral, get used to HotW gameplay first. When keeping everything up with HotW becomes automatic then you can switch to DoC, which requires better energy management. Personally, I've ended up sticking to HotW for the survival and versatility, I also find DoC very clunky to play.

2. If AoE is the problem, that's one more reason to take HotW: Hurricane-spam is absolutely insane, even more so if you can arrange your stats to that RoRO becomes a haste proc.... The energy starving is normal, Thrash and Swipe are very expensive and unless you stay a lot on one target it's hard to get long SRs. If the AoE phase can be pre-planned you can try to get a 5-CP SR from the start. The rake-swipe switch used to be very high (8 targets), but tab-rake can be very aggravating, so switching earlier may be better. Thrash remains a high priority anyway, as its DPR, which is already good in single target, gets multiplied by the number of targets. BTW for AoE it's very important to be hit/expertise capped: you get refund for miss/parry on single-target ability, but NOT on AoE abilities, so if you start to miss, the DPR of the AoE abilities goes down a lot.

3. I don't know if it has been simmed extensively. A completely random guess would be yes, since Rip's damage is enormous, and it also allows you to gain CPs for a SR refres should you need it. For this kind of scenario (few targets) Symbiosis Soul Swap + 4pcT16 is great, since it allows you to almost chain-land the two Rips.

4. Yes: TF is to be used on cooldown, it's a DPS loss to delay it for DoT refresh/application.

Simbba
Posts: 41
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 6:01 pm

Re: How and where do I learn from good ferals?

Post by Simbba » Wed Dec 04, 2013 4:42 pm

DoC might be harder but it sims higher than HoTW

User avatar
Steakbomb
Revered
Posts: 290
Joined: Fri Dec 24, 2010 1:57 pm

Re: How and where do I learn from good ferals?

Post by Steakbomb » Wed Dec 04, 2013 7:41 pm

Simbba wrote:DoC might be harder but it sims higher than HoTW
DoC is higher damage IF you play it correctly. If you are new to feral then you won't be playing it right and therefore your DPS will be lower than HotW
Image

User avatar
Alpheus
Revered
Posts: 327
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2012 4:19 am

Re: How and where do I learn from good ferals?

Post by Alpheus » Thu Dec 05, 2013 4:26 am

Steakbomb wrote:
Simbba wrote:DoC might be harder but it sims higher than HoTW
DoC is higher damage IF you play it correctly. If you are new to feral then you won't be playing it right and therefore your DPS will be lower than HotW
If you're new to feral, you'll play HotW badly as well. It's still better as long as you make an effort to actually dps.
Image

iamcat
Posts: 8
Joined: Fri Nov 22, 2013 11:00 am

Re: How and where do I learn from good ferals?

Post by iamcat » Fri Dec 06, 2013 8:29 am

thanks for answers guys. dont worry i would never go hotw for st :p so dull

im still not sure on one thing though. the opener. what is the best opener really? ive tried a million things but cant really figure out how to get dat sick burst :>

Neverpullout
Posts: 17
Joined: Wed Nov 06, 2013 1:24 pm

Re: How and where do I learn from good ferals?

Post by Neverpullout » Fri Dec 06, 2013 2:23 pm

Depends on your trinkets and whether or not you have 4pc but here is how I normally start.

Single Target

Pre Pull
HT (DoC proc)
Pre Pot
Cat Form
Prowl
Dash (I use this to get into position asap)

Pull
SR (just before you go to ravage)
Ravage
Pop CD macro (TF, Berserk, Berserking, etc)
Rake 3-5cp
Rip

(If you have 4pc the below will be easier)

Rake
HT at 4cp
DoC
Rake 5cp
Rip

And that ends my opener. If you have extra time before your SR wears off try to get a DoC thrash off at the end. Hope that helps

Good Luck
-Never

User avatar
aggixx
Exalted
Posts: 2292
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2011 7:49 pm
Contact:

Re: How and where do I learn from good ferals?

Post by aggixx » Sun Dec 08, 2013 10:24 pm

iamcat wrote:thanks for answers guys. dont worry i would never go hotw for st :p so dull

im still not sure on one thing though. the opener. what is the best opener really? ive tried a million things but cant really figure out how to get dat sick burst :>
If you're playing with players that are at least close to you in skill, it's normal to get beaten in burst damage (DPS in the first 10-20 seconds of the pull, at least) unless you get absurdly lucky with trinket procs. The strength of our DPS is our sustain so you should be able to pull up towards the top of the meters as the fight goes on.

@Never: You're wasting 1 second of your pot by doing it before cat form, it should be immediately before Prowl instead. You're also wasting about 30 energy by using your CDs after your Ravage.

Here's a more complete post I made a while ago on opener:
http://fluiddruid.net/forum/viewtopic.p ... ner#p17274

NS is gone now so obviously you can't use it. The major difference is that your goal is to put up your first 5 CP Rip as fast as you possibly can, TF/Berserk should be used as soon as you drop below 40 energy and, if you have 4 pc, if you reach 5 CP before that happens your must use it at that point so that your Feral Rage buff is up. After that Rip, you want to get to 5 CP a second time, using your Healing Touch when appropriate, and then get that second DoC'd Rip in before your TF and trinket procs end. You can generally then follow up with a Rake and Thrash (the Thrash won't be DoC'd but it'll still be pretty beefy because unless something goes wrong you can get it in before the trinkets end). If you did the 15 second SR thing and timed it well, in addition to getting decent filler crit RNG, you can get to 5CP a third time before SR ends (although sometimes you'll have to refresh it with 0 CP, which isn't the end of the world).
ImageImage

User avatar
aggixx
Exalted
Posts: 2292
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2011 7:49 pm
Contact:

Re: How and where do I learn from good ferals?

Post by aggixx » Sun Dec 08, 2013 10:55 pm

To answer the original questions (since Helistar is the only ones who touched on them in full):

1. This is normal to some degree, some of your Rips (the minority, but it will happen sometime) just won't be able to be DoC buffed. Just used the PS proc as it's about to end, sometimes you'll get a lucky crit that will help you out anyway. If you do apply a non-DoC'd rip then you'll generally want to clip it as soon as you get to 5 CP with DoC up (unless it was applied with a bunch of trinket procs, obviously). Overall it gets less of an issue with gear.

Also, if you're not doing this, you want to be waiting til high energy when you don't need to apply Rip or SR immediately, that way once you use your finisher you have an energy lead into the next CP cycle, that should almost guarantee that you have the DoC buff at 5 CP.

2. That's pretty much normal. On something like Fallen Protectors we're extremely energy starved, that's just how it is.

3. No, not if there's another target that will lose Rip uptime while you're doing so. Those 3 fillers you cast to extend it could've been 5 CP you already would have on a different target.

4. Yes, you should use it as aggressively as possible unless you have no target to hit. It's fine to delay applying your Rip a second or two for TF, but not the other way around. The notable exception here is when you see an opportunity to lineup a glorious execution Rip, then you should do anything you can (within reason) to make it happen. For example, if you know your RPPM trinket hasn't procced in forever, it's proc multiplier has been ramping up for a bit so you know it's going to proc soon, and your Assurance is about to come off of ICD as well, then it may be reasonable to hold onto your TF for a bit and hope everything lines up in your favor. If it pays off it'll be more than worth it.
ImageImage

Tremnen
Revered
Posts: 478
Joined: Wed Jul 31, 2013 10:50 pm

Re: How and where do I learn from good ferals?

Post by Tremnen » Mon Dec 09, 2013 2:28 am

aggixx wrote:
iamcat wrote:thanks for answers guys. dont worry i would never go hotw for st :p so dull

im still not sure on one thing though. the opener. what is the best opener really? ive tried a million things but cant really figure out how to get dat sick burst :>
If you're playing with players that are at least close to you in skill, it's normal to get beaten in burst damage (DPS in the first 10-20 seconds of the pull, at least) unless you get absurdly lucky with trinket procs..
Is this true? I usually find that only our enhancement shaman and boomkin reliably burst higher than me on the pull + bloodlust (also our rogue if he goes Sub).

Edit: and even then I would say its not surprising to me that it is one of us three not necessarily me or the boomkin or the enhancement shaman but sometimes me sometimes the owl and sometimes the shaman.

Simbba
Posts: 41
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 6:01 pm

Re: How and where do I learn from good ferals?

Post by Simbba » Mon Dec 09, 2013 2:57 pm

yea I feel when both Haromm's Talisman and RoR proc back to back during bloodlust on H thok i'm able to keep up with burst against my guilds enhance shamans/locks.

User avatar
aggixx
Exalted
Posts: 2292
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2011 7:49 pm
Contact:

Re: How and where do I learn from good ferals?

Post by aggixx » Mon Dec 09, 2013 2:59 pm

We don't get beat by everyone of course, but if you're shooting to top the meters in your opener your expectations are probably unrealistic.

It also can be very hard to gauge where you stand skill-wise compared to your fellow raiders so it's possible my (or your) perceptions are off on the matter.

Yes, you can top meters when you get chain trinket procs, but so can everybody else.
ImageImage

Tremnen
Revered
Posts: 478
Joined: Wed Jul 31, 2013 10:50 pm

Re: How and where do I learn from good ferals?

Post by Tremnen » Mon Dec 09, 2013 4:26 pm

I still think with Rake spam and RoRo we have some of the best opening burst dps. For instance last night I peaked as 3rd highest in my group and was in the top 5 for damage in the first 20 seconds of the pull.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-o ... =263&e=283

*We were clearing these 2 bosses on normal because we were missing to many mains to do seigecrafter and Thok on Heroic and wanted to be able to work on paragons all night tonight.

**I also think I am a a subpar feral and I could be much much better.

User avatar
Sibylle
Revered
Posts: 477
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2012 6:51 am
Location: Ireland

Re: How and where do I learn from good ferals?

Post by Sibylle » Tue Dec 10, 2013 3:04 pm

Sub-par, eh? With nearly 400k dps on Thok of all the accursed, un-dps-able, anti-melee bosses. Wonder what that would make me. On second thought, don't answer that! :lol:
-Sibylle

"Not a shred of evidence exists in favor of the idea that life is serious." (Brendan Gill)

Tremnen
Revered
Posts: 478
Joined: Wed Jul 31, 2013 10:50 pm

Re: How and where do I learn from good ferals?

Post by Tremnen » Tue Dec 10, 2013 3:12 pm

If you check closer on that log I had both trinkets proc 7 times over a 4 minute fight. both trinkets are around 1 RPPM so i got really lucky on procs ontop of that we killed him in 4 minutes. Meaning I should have around 8-10 trinket procs total and I got 14. Killing him in only 4 minutes also inflates bloodlust dps and still lets me get in a 2nd berserk before the kill. I also follow him through the first 3 fixates using dash.

Honestly this is a case of my being lucky more than skillful at the spec.

Also I heavily out gear you :P. I am nearly heroic BIS I should be able to do more damage than I am doing.

User avatar
Kroníc
Posts: 46
Joined: Mon Sep 24, 2012 1:07 am

Re: How and where do I learn from good ferals?

Post by Kroníc » Wed Dec 11, 2013 1:36 am

Best attempt 4% Heroic Thok this week (Cried myself to sleep)

Had both trinkets proc at ~32% + Potion + Tricks : http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-kjc4r ... 57&e=12878

As for Feral Openers, I really don't think we're the most bursty of dps. My opener is still: HT, Catform, Pre-pot, Stealth, SR, Ravage, Rake, SR (Force a PS proc), Mangle, TF+Berserk, Shred to 4/5 Combo, HT, Rake/Rip (Depending on Combo), Thrash (End Trinket Procs), Normal rotation.

Tremnen
Revered
Posts: 478
Joined: Wed Jul 31, 2013 10:50 pm

Re: How and where do I learn from good ferals?

Post by Tremnen » Wed Dec 11, 2013 2:15 am

My opener (I dont use DoC) is normally.

2 seconds before pull pre pot + Shattering throw.
Faerie Fire + Savage Roar (O CP)
Rake x2
Berserk + Berserking + TF
Rake to 5CP
Rip
Thrash
Rake x2
Savage Roar 5CP
Rake until trinkets drop off
Proceed to normal rotation

Helistar
Honored
Posts: 102
Joined: Tue Sep 18, 2012 4:01 pm

Re: How and where do I learn from good ferals?

Post by Helistar » Wed Dec 11, 2013 7:28 am

Tremnen wrote:My opener (I dont use DoC) is normally.

2 seconds before pull pre pot + Shattering throw.
Faerie Fire + Savage Roar (O CP)
Rake x2
Berserk + Berserking + TF
Just a question for the other FoN users: it's after this action that you spam your treants, right? If I'm not mistaken this is when they should get the rakes up will all possible boosts (pot+TF+2x trinket).

BTW when using SotF I used to weave in the Thrash before the rip, since the energy payback you find yourself instantly energy capped.

Tremnen
Revered
Posts: 478
Joined: Wed Jul 31, 2013 10:50 pm

Re: How and where do I learn from good ferals?

Post by Tremnen » Wed Dec 11, 2013 8:15 am

Yes that is where you would dump Treants. I find I energy cap on the pull plus bloodlust even with thrashing first which is why I don't usually run SotF anymore.

User avatar
aggixx
Exalted
Posts: 2292
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2011 7:49 pm
Contact:

Re: How and where do I learn from good ferals?

Post by aggixx » Wed Dec 11, 2013 3:04 pm

Helistar wrote: Just a question for the other FoN users: it's after this action that you spam your treants, right? If I'm not mistaken this is when they should get the rakes up will all possible boosts (pot+TF+2x trinket).

BTW when using SotF I used to weave in the Thrash before the rip, since the energy payback you find yourself instantly energy capped.
They don't benefit from your buffs, only your stats, so TF does nothing for them. There's three options for charge usage in the opener:

No rune:
All charges as soon as all procs are up.

Rune:
1 charge when your procs are up and 2 when they're about to fade.
OR
3 when they're about to fade.

With rune you want to use them at the end of the ROR proc so the rake gets benefit from the mastery, and then it fades and their melee gets benefit from your normal haste and crit. The tradeoff with using 1 on pull versus not is you're basically gambling on whether or not that ~9 seconds will grant you 1 additional charge over the course of the fight, the two choices are about even on average.
ImageImage

iamcat
Posts: 8
Joined: Fri Nov 22, 2013 11:00 am

Re: How and where do I learn from good ferals?

Post by iamcat » Fri Dec 13, 2013 11:02 pm

hi again. i got my hc rune tonight so im officially a feral druid

ive got a 561 detonator that i picked up during an alt run with the guild and ive got so say how absolutely aids it is to play rune+detonator my goodness. but then again its better than rentaki+detonator which is what i used before i got my rune

anyway, i usually open with

ht for doc
catform
savage roar
pre pot
TF
savage roar (3 cp on target)
ravage (100% crit -> 5cp)
All trinkets proc since rppm <333333333333333 love <3
insta rip with 19 stacks of detonator+rune+tf+dancing steel
berserk+berserking
rake spam

im nto sure if i should rake spam or just get a rake up with doc and as many stacks of detonator as i can and keep shredding

thanks for all the replies to my thread guys, this is a lovely forum. im all new to feral and i appreciate all the help :)

im pretty comfortable in getting high rip dmg. got as high as 36% tonight on flex jugger. its really weird playing with detonator to just sit there at 5 cp and wait and waaaaaaait and waaaaait and then just apply it when energy caps because nothing procs. then 1 second later rune+detonator procs. i want to rip and rake my hair out

sucks that i only get to do alt runs haha :D feral is amazing compared to rogue. i would re roll instantly if it wasnt for the damn meta and cloak that im not even close to yet. yuckkkkk!!!!!!!!!

User avatar
aggixx
Exalted
Posts: 2292
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2011 7:49 pm
Contact:

Re: How and where do I learn from good ferals?

Post by aggixx » Sat Dec 14, 2013 6:45 pm

iamcat wrote:im nto sure if i should rake spam or just get a rake up with doc and as many stacks of detonator as i can and keep shredding
The difference probably depends a lot on how much gear you have, shred gets a lot worse vs rune rake's direct damage as you add more stats to your gear. Spamming Rake is probably a fine approach.

Glad to hear you're having fun!
ImageImage

Post Reply