Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Post by Cetlysm » Sat Apr 26, 2014 10:55 am

At least 1/3 of a rip's dmg instead of 0.3/3
reduce the extra dmg energy thing or remove it?
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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Post by Alpheus » Sat Apr 26, 2014 1:29 pm

Cetlysm wrote:At least 1/3 of a rip's dmg instead of 0.3/3
reduce the extra dmg energy thing or remove it?
If we don't have to play defensively concerning energy then keeping the extra damage conversion isn't such a bad thing (assuming we'll reasonably prioritize FB in our rotation.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Post by ShmooDude » Sat Apr 26, 2014 1:51 pm

Cetlysm wrote:At least 1/3 of a rip's dmg instead of 0.3/3
reduce the extra dmg energy thing or remove it?
Current Rip formula
[ 1,713 + 24.2% of AP ] * Mastery % (per tick) or [ 18,843 + 266.2% of AP ] * Mastery % (over 22 seconds)
Current FB formula
[ 4,125 + 98% of AP ] to [ 4,495 + 98% of AP ] * ~0.66 for armor * 2 for excess energy * 115% for extra crit chance (assumes 50%+ crit chance)
If you ignore snapshotting, which is what gives rip its massive advantage today, Ferocious Bite does come to about 1/3 of a Rip if you use it at 50 energy.

Alpha Rip formula
[ 75% of AP ] * Mastery % (per tick) or [ 825% of AP ] * Mastery % (over 22 seconds)
[ 178.5% of AP ] * 120% Leveling Perk * 2 for excess energy * ~0.66 for armor * 120% for extra crit chance (assumes a base crit chance of 25%)
We'll say ~60% mastery for ~1320% of AP over 22 seconds for Rip
Vs 342.72% of AP which is about 1/3.85. Higher mastery from gear will favor rip more but we don't know if we'll be stacking mastery in the XP.


So really we're not that far off from what you want except it seems like you want it to also be for 25 energy for the same damage? Don't really see that happening

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Post by Cetlysm » Sat Apr 26, 2014 11:28 pm

Maybe they can make the extra 25 energy apply a bleed proportional to the FB dmg? A slow, long dot. I've seen this idea float around before.
Or give you a free OoC.
or if used with 50 energy it in addition to the damage triggers a bleed multistrike based on your haste rating
anything at this point but boring inefficient extra dmg per energy.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Post by ShmooDude » Sun Apr 27, 2014 3:20 pm

Cetlysm wrote:Maybe they can make the extra 25 energy apply a bleed proportional to the FB dmg? A slow, long dot. I've seen this idea float around before.
Or give you a free OoC.
or if used with 50 energy it in addition to the damage triggers a bleed multistrike based on your haste rating
anything at this point but boring inefficient extra dmg per energy.
How is it inefficient? Its the same Damage Per Energy (double the energy for double the damage) no matter the energy usage (used to be worse, but they fixed it). Ferocious Bite is our 3rd best DPE ability (after Rip and Rake) which is how it should be since its not a DoT.

I really don't want a bleed attached to it unless its super short duration (like <5 seconds; something akin to Explosive Shot which isn't technically a DoT) otherwise its just yet another bleed to maintain.

Honestly, I think the best change imo would be to up its crit chance bonus from 25 to 50% since we're going to have a way lower crit chance in WoD. Even completely stacking crit, its unlikely we'll get much past 50% crit in WoD. IIRC it used to be 50% but they lowered it since we had so much innate crit anyhow.

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Post by Tinderhoof » Sun Apr 27, 2014 7:46 pm

Cetlysm wrote:Maybe they can make the extra 25 energy apply a bleed proportional to the FB dmg? A slow, long dot. I've seen this idea float around before.
Or give you a free OoC.
or if used with 50 energy it in addition to the damage triggers a bleed multistrike based on your haste rating
anything at this point but boring inefficient extra dmg per energy.
As with some of the prior suggestions how does any of these suggestions change game play? In essence we are still going to use FB the same way we did before. We aren't going to use it more because it gives us an OOC proc, or of it applies a dot. In the end all this change does is modify the tool tip. Would it really be more exciting to push FB if it added a different kind of damage on your combat text?

Now I have been pointing out issues with suggestions not because I think people's ideas are bad, or stupid. I would like to try and shed some light on the difficultly that the design team goes though every time we reason this spot in development of a new expiation. "How can we add a new twist to game play while still keeping the flavor of the spec? How can we also keep it stable and have it grow with player progression?" And then do it 42 more times. They aren't perfect. We have seen some things that really just didn't work out, or weren't fully fleshed out until after it went live. That's software for you.

What I would like to see more of in this thread is instead of "why don't we add this", is "this is game play I didn't like in MoP, and here is why". This type of feed back is much more useful for the design team than ability wish lists. This can tell them the area's that people want to see a change in, and they can look at that with a full context of changes (which we are never privy too). When we start to see some of us get invited to the alpha and mess with game play we can take the pain points we collect here and start posting things up on the alpha forums where we can make an impact.

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Post by Stenhaldi » Sun Apr 27, 2014 9:31 pm

While increasing ferocious bite's power (through damage or other means) wouldn't really change our priorities, it would make it more rewarding when you do manage to squeeze out ferocious bites. That might be a fun thing, because historically it tends to be a lot of risk for minimal reward.

It would also improve our on-demand burst damage capabilities. If you need to kill something quickly or take advantage of a burst-damage window (even something like a trinket proc), you could pool combo points for ferocious bite and maybe it would actually be meaningful.

On the other hand, I would note that since ferocious bite is something you only use against a single target, strengthening it (and accordingly taking damage away from other abilities) would likely weaken our multiple-target damage. It's also kind of fun to have rip be so strong compared to ferocious bite because that makes it so much more rewarding when you manage to maintain two rips.

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Post by Tinderhoof » Mon Apr 28, 2014 2:17 am

Stenhaldi wrote:While increasing ferocious bite's power (through damage or other means) wouldn't really change our priorities, it would make it more rewarding when you do manage to squeeze out ferocious bites. That might be a fun thing, because historically it tends to be a lot of risk for minimal reward.
I was commenting on changing the effect of FB for the sake of changing the effect, not it's actual damage output. Even if they buffed FB a lot we would still keep up SR, and Rip so it wouldn't change the frequency of it being cast. If the feedback is just "FB has been so weak this expac that I feel like its a filler and not a finisher" say that.

It is boring right now to hit FB. Totally ends up feeling like "well I got nothing else to do with these combo points and the result isn't very satisfying". I don't think finishers should feel like that. It's something I would like addressed.

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Post by aggixx » Mon Apr 28, 2014 9:05 am

Tinderhoof wrote:It is boring right now to hit FB. Totally ends up feeling like "well I got nothing else to do with these combo points and the result isn't very satisfying". I don't think finishers should feel like that. It's something I would like addressed.
It will be a lot less boring when we don't have 60% crit and 50% haste. Maybe an okay solution would be to have intentionally crank up the scaling so that it stays how it normally would be at the beginning of the expansion, but as the expansion progresses it's relative DPET would rise to keep it compelling (since its much easier, and less risky, to fit several FBs in).
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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Post by Tinderhoof » Mon Apr 28, 2014 11:46 am

aggixx wrote:It will be a lot less boring when we don't have 60% crit and 50% haste.
I do feel happy when with low crit I can pull an FB off. However it doesn't feel very meaningful because the output is still so low vs how often it gets used/and how much it costs. Most of any FB damage in the first tier came from sub 25% which isn't exactly exciting either.

I am not sure I understand your suggestion. Could you expand on what you mean by
aggixx wrote:so that it stays how it normally would be at the beginning of the expansion,
?

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Post by aggixx » Mon Apr 28, 2014 3:22 pm

I mean perhaps they could tune up the damage it does in the later parts of the expansion without much affecting the damage in earlier tiers. The fact that its harder to pull off FBs in worse gear makes the interaction more interesting, so you'd only need to increase the reward in better gear when it becomes easier. So for example's sake, if we were to do this expansion over again with this change it would go like this:

T14: Hits for about the same damage
T15: Hits for a bit more damage than it actually did. (+30%?)
T16: Hits for quite a bit more damage than it actually does. (+60%?)

That said I recognize there is a fundamental flaw in this suggestion, because as it stands now the "reward" is a constant throughout the expansion while the risk lowers as the expansion goes on, which means using FB isn't actually more rewarding earlier in the expansion, just more difficult. Therefore my suggestion would hinge on the whether or not you agree that raising the reward as the risk is lowered would allow you to maintain interest in the interaction. Personally I think it would for me, but I recognize that my opinion does not encompass the opinion of all feral players.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Post by Paloro » Mon Apr 28, 2014 4:27 pm

aggixx wrote: That said I recognize there is a fundamental flaw in this suggestion, because as it stands now the "reward" is a constant throughout the expansion while the risk lowers as the expansion goes on, which means using FB isn't actually more rewarding earlier in the expansion, just more difficult. Therefore my suggestion would hinge on the whether or not you agree that raising the reward as the risk is lowered would allow you to maintain interest in the interaction. Personally I think it would for me, but I recognize that my opinion does not encompass the opinion of all feral players.
I'm only hesitant about this because it might restrict us even more to stick to one target. I do enjoy FB weaving, but I also like having to make less decisions in a fight about keeping single target damage or helping the raid kill an add.
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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Post by trifrost » Tue Apr 29, 2014 11:19 pm

It will be a lot less boring when we don't have 60% crit and 50% haste. Maybe an okay solution would be to have intentionally crank up the scaling so that it stays how it normally would be at the beginning of the expansion, but as the expansion progresses it's relative DPET would rise to keep it compelling (since its much easier, and less risky, to fit several FBs in).
Blizzard cant really crank up FB damage too much for fear of 1 shotting in PVP . Maybe let FB buffs our energy regen for the next X seconds. Adjust the energy regen amount such that we will recover the 40 energy(?) used by FB in X seconds, that way it's like a free FB every couple of seconds and we can weave in FB into our rotation.

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Post by Whitepaw » Mon May 05, 2014 8:12 am

And assassination rogues are losing Slice and Dice in Warlords of Draenor for precisely that reason. It's not a meaningful button for them because they just cast it once on engaging the target and it's up for the rest of the fight. It's not rewarding or exciting. It's essentially just a passive effect that happens to require a button and a timer just to handle the extremely rare circumstance where it might fall off.
This decision could be used to argue that Ferals shouldn't have Savage Roar anymore. It's true that
You need to plan your resource usage around its timer.
...but that doesn't make it exciting or rewarding. There are several possibilities for Savage Roar:
- Just scrapping it completely would be viable. Then, we would have 3 finishers, which seems appropriate.
- Let Savage Roar buff our next X uses of Shred.
- Let Savage Roar give us a charge, which can be used to cast X number of Ravage with no Prowl requirement. This would remove the free Ravage from our PvP set bonus. I still like the free Ravage from using Feral Charge (now Wild Charge), but Blizzard seems disinclined to re-implement that :(

Regarding Ferocious Bite: I'd like it to buff our energy regen or our bleeds. The energy regen would be fun (more ability use for the next X seconds), while the buff to bleeds would fit with the current Feral theme (DoT based damage dealer).

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Post by Tinderhoof » Mon May 05, 2014 12:01 pm

Whitepaw wrote:Regarding Ferocious Bite: I'd like it to buff our energy regen
What would you do during berserk?

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Post by Stenhaldi » Mon May 05, 2014 3:50 pm

Whitepaw wrote:
And assassination rogues are losing Slice and Dice in Warlords of Draenor for precisely that reason. It's not a meaningful button for them because they just cast it once on engaging the target and it's up for the rest of the fight. It's not rewarding or exciting. It's essentially just a passive effect that happens to require a button and a timer just to handle the extremely rare circumstance where it might fall off.
This decision could be used to argue that Ferals shouldn't have Savage Roar anymore.
No, not really. If you have to press Slice and Dice (as assassination) it means something went very wrong in your rotation. That's not the case with savage roar. Savage roar is a meaningful button (even if it's not exciting).

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Post by zagtastic » Mon May 05, 2014 7:42 pm

idea for Savage Roar. this is kind of riff'ing on some of the ideas already thrown out here-- but how about if SR was a mid-length CD that allowed our bleeds ticks to benefit from haste for a period that scales with CP?

something like:
savage roar
25 energy
instant
40 second CD

Finishing move that allows all your bleeds to benefit from haste. Only effective in Cat Form. Lasts longer per combo point:

1 point : 8 seconds
2 points: 12 seconds
3 points: 16 seconds
4 points: 20 seconds
5 points: 24 seconds

this does a number of interesting things:
1) it increases the value of haste, which is currently (and likely to remain) our least-valued offensive stat. curious whether around a 50% uptime of something like this would make haste competitive with mastery value to us, without overtaking it. if not, whereabouts that break-even point would be. any theorycrafters on this?
2) keeps savage roar "rotational" (as in, you will almost certainly want to use it often, when available), while remaining interesting (want to coordinate with other buffs/procs, bleed durations, etc), and not being something you can keep 100% uptime on
3) it's rewarding to push, but not *required* depending on ttk, dots present, etc
4) doesn't increase our ramp-up time and actually rewards more difficult multi-dotting gameplay. *might* even make target switching slightly less punishing.
5) fits in with our themes, existing rotation, etc.

thoughts?

--edit: just for clarity's sake, the pertinent differences from aggixx's suggestion earlier in the thread is that i am switching from CPs translating to increased percentage and it lasting a fixed duration to it having a dynamically variable benefit (based on current haste) and CPs translating to increased duration (with a maximum and cd that still prevent 100% uptime). duration and cd (and perhaps % of haste granted?) should be balanced such that haste (and perhaps readiness) becomes competitive with other secondary stats-- taking into account opportunity costs for CPs and energy used, of course.
Last edited by zagtastic on Mon May 05, 2014 9:21 pm, edited 6 times in total.

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Post by Tinderhoof » Mon May 05, 2014 8:04 pm

Celestalon has said in a tweet that bleeds will not benefit from Haste.

Just from a design point of view I can't tell if your SR idea is a snapshot mechanic or dynamic. Can you go into more depth about how you would expect this to work out with our rotation?

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Post by zagtastic » Mon May 05, 2014 8:17 pm

Tinderhoof wrote:Celestalon has said in a tweet that bleeds will not benefit from Haste.

Just from a design point of view I can't tell if your SR idea is a snapshot mechanic or dynamic. Can you go into more depth about how you would expect this to work out with our rotation?
yeah, i saw that. but i think that the point was that mechanically/globally non-magic dots would not benefit from haste. celes said that for those affected classes, the primary benefit of haste was resource recovery. however, that's how it is in game today and it seems that haste is undervalued for ferals. they will likely do something to address that-- though it might simply be increasing the damage contribution of our non-bleed abilities, which would up the value of energy regen... but i thought this might be another fun/interesting way to accomplish that, and it seems like it would be relatively easier to balance than any wider mechanic or class changes. also worth noting that both now and in WoD (from what we know anyway), it appears that haste will be the only secondary dps stat (maybe readiness, too?) that has effectively NO interaction with our mastery, which means that haste will necessarily lose ground relative to the other secondary stats toward the end of the xpac. this can help address that issue. and if readiness were to affect this new savage roar, its value would be increased as well.

to answer your other question, i'm definitely thinking dynamic. in other words, assuming that rotationally you are able to keep up all 3 dots over the 24 active seconds of this implementation of savage roar, you would have 24 seconds worth of hasted dot ticks per use.

rotationally, this would usually be the top priority finisher (when available) as long as all dots are currently on target and rip won't fall off soon, tho you might choose to delay for BL/hero/proc/icds/etc, or if you expected to be multi-dotting shortly. it would be somewhat like SR is now, except with some amount of strategy due to its CD and less than 100% uptime, and the fact that you want to use it AFTER your dots are on the target rather than before (this seems like a huge QoL improvement to me). it would also cause some interesting decisions about when to use with fewer than 5 cps as the CD makes that a real trade-off (only cost for using the existing SR at low CPs is energy). alternatively, in situations where you're resource-starved (low crit or bad luck or w/e) you might be best off using it on CD but with only as many CPs as you can spare without letting Rip fall off. lots of options.

i also find it interesting that this will provide synergy with procs and cds that don't usually interact with our bleeds and that SR's rotational priority will likely vary by gear/trinkets/enchants and even raid comp. that may be a negative to some, but seems like it adds depth and additional opportunities for the truly skilled ferals to stand out, without overly punishing the less skilled.

while i enjoy the dynamics of snapshotting on my feral, i understand that blizz wants to get away from that and this suggestion conforms to that goal.

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Post by Stenhaldi » Mon May 05, 2014 11:59 pm

I think a non-snapshotting temporary bleed buff is not very interesting because there's not much to optimize: all your bleeds are always going to be up, so you're always getting exactly the same benefit. The only difference is whether you stack it with another buff like TF (which, incidentally, does snapshot). A snapshotting temporary buff would be more interesting, which is why I suggested earlier that the Savagery talent change savage roar into a cooldown. Even a temporary direct damage buff would be more interesting, since direct damage is something you have control over. You don't have control over bleed damage.

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Post by zagtastic » Tue May 06, 2014 12:48 am

Stenhaldi wrote:I think a non-snapshotting temporary bleed buff is not very interesting because there's not much to optimize: all your bleeds are always going to be up, so you're always getting exactly the same benefit. The only difference is whether you stack it with another buff like TF (which, incidentally, does snapshot). A snapshotting temporary buff would be more interesting, which is why I suggested earlier that the Savagery talent change savage roar into a cooldown. Even a temporary direct damage buff would be more interesting, since direct damage is something you have control over. You don't have control over bleed damage.
i think you're looking at it way too simplistically. yes, it will almost always benefit all 3 bleeds. and yeah, it's not snapshotting, but its benefit is dynamic based on both the native bleed power (which is itself completely dynamic --excepting TF-- in the new world without snapshotting) and the user's haste. with a low uptime, there can be HUGE value in timing this so that it takes advantage of as many other buffs/procs as possible. it is quite clearly not going to have a constant benefit throughout the life of a single cast, much less over multiple casts, and this effect can be made more pronounced by reducing the uptime. for instance, maybe it applies 200% haste to your bleeds for half as long? i dunno where the balance is.

i am a huge fan of the fact that this would scale with multi-dotting _after_ application. but i'm even a bigger fan of the fact that this builds on our theme (bleeds) and can be used to bring an underwhelming secondary stat (haste) back to interesting. but i disagree strongly with the idea that there isn't much to optimize or that it's uninteresting. this can become the new snapshotting wherein you receive huge benefits for careful and proper timing, or do just ok by not paying attention. the difference is that rather than snapshotting a moment, you're attempting to predict/react to periods of higher bleed damage or increased haste with a variable-length window.

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Post by Stenhaldi » Tue May 06, 2014 2:02 am

I could see that argument for something like Haunt, which can be used on demand. You can save Haunt for trinket procs without wasting potential uses.

But the dynamics are very different for a cooldown ability. If you delay a cooldown, you simply lose uses of it, so it would take a very strong, very immediate incentive to be worth delaying such a cooldown. A trinket proc (except an imminent one, e.g. an ICD trinket off cooldown) is not such an incentive. Realistically, you're not going to hold this cooldown for trinket procs any more than a warrior can hold colossus smash for trinket procs.

This is why I say your suggestion does not provide interesting play. Yes, it would be interesting to pick when to use it -- if you could afford to do so. In some cases it might even be worth holding the cooldown in preparation for particular encounter mechanics, just like any other class cooldown. But in normal cases, the way rotational cooldowns are used is that you play around the cooldown. A dynamically updating buff to our bleeds does not afford opportunities to adjust the rest of your play around its presence, absence, or remaining cooldown duration.

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Post by zagtastic » Tue May 06, 2014 8:47 pm

fair enough.

the one additional thing that i think might make it interesting is the combo point requirement and the fact that uptime scales based on the number of points used. if, between reduced crit and increased FB value, CP scarcity and value is such that it is difficult to pool CPs for using this SR, it seems that it would be theoretically possible to find a balance such that SR would be situationally either delayed or used with fewer than 5 CPs-- which, at least on the surface, seems somewhat interesting to me. this might mean that the average benefit of a single use of the CD is not terribly impressive (probably should slot higher than FB at 5 cps-- but not such that it's typically worth wasting CPs waiting on SR's CD), but that it scales particularly well with certain other temporary buffs. it seems like with careful balancing, the generic idea here could be made interesting. but i suppose that applies to any idea, doesn't it? i just want a way for bloodlust to work with our bleeds, is that so wrong? ;)

also i'm curious whether a variable-length CD (depending on the number of CPs consumed) would make this more or less interesting? maybe a sliding scale such that if you always used it on CD with 5 cps, you would have the maximum possible uptime (tho with expected resource constraints that make that impossible or nearly so)... but with the CD being something like < 2*duration + 20 sec >. thoughts? or am i just flailing around impotently because i like this idea too much?

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Post by Tinderhoof » Wed May 07, 2014 4:25 am

zagtastic wrote:thoughts? or am i just flailing around impotently because i like this idea too much?
Much like Symbiosis this idea seems neat on paper, but would take a massive reworking to implement and balance, but would still end up not changing our rotation. Pretty much no matter what you mess around with, the combo point generation it would still be beneficial to use on cooldown. It would be really weird to have a mechanic to hold combo points for a proc we have no idea when it will come. It would totally be possible to never be able to use SR because trinket procs come when you use your combo points for Rip, and don't have time to get enough + energy to cast SR while the proc is still active. That just doesn't sound like a fun mechanic because it relies so much on lucky timing with procs and not really any skill.

What I am interested to understand is why is bleeds benefiting from Haste so exciting? In the new system the length of any hasted DOT won't change at all, it will just do more damage. Why go for very complex mechanics when "Rip/Rake hit harder" does the same thing? I know Haste has been boring for us for some time now. Even with Rune we only care cause Mastery will proc higher. I agree I would like to feel good about getting a piece of gear with Haste on it. I think it sucks that our Mastery doesn't really interact with our only cooldown (TF is rotational not a cooldown according to Celestalon). Like I said earlier in the thread feed back of what you don't like about the class now is much more helpful. Instead of coming up with a mechanic just say the problem you would like to see solved. That is feedback we can take to the designers that they can use.

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Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Post by AsgardFM » Wed May 07, 2014 8:07 am

To just break it down into the problems is an easier task to me.
1) Worry that haste will remain a useless stat.
When it only boosts our white damage (currently, and likely to remain, very low % of total damage) and minor haste regen we'll be sad to see it on gear.

2) With the removal of snapshotting our rotation becomes dull.
SR glyph procs, rake, shred to 5 cp, rip. Thrash, shred to 5 cp, bite, repeat until dead (refresh as necessary).

3) SR being too necessary for any meaningful damage.
A lesser issue that we've dealt with via 0cp SRs. With this being removed we'll suffer more if we need to disengage for prolonged sections of a fight. Talent negates this yet makes rotation even more dull.

As an aside regarding FB, does it have higher than average scaling with agility, or something else? I see it crit for 900k during opening burst yet midfight it doesn't pass 400, even when it consumes maximum energy.
As has been said, feels a waste most of the time but if it reached those opening numbers more often then casting it actually feels like it was worth it.

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