Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Face-rippin fun.

Moderator: Forum Administrators

User avatar
Stenhaldi
Exalted
Posts: 591
Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2011 4:49 am

Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Post by Stenhaldi » Thu Apr 24, 2014 1:38 am

Based on wowdb's coefficients, 50-energy ferocious bite does about as much damage as 1.8 to 2.4 rip ticks (depending on mastery/crit levels).

I'm not sure if those coefficients are correct, though. They might be taking feral base mastery into account. Wowhead reports a 20% smaller coefficient, which would put 50-energy ferocious bite at 2.3 to 3 rip ticks.

If the wowdb coefficient is indeed incorrect in this manner, then this also lowers the estimate of rip's change relative to live to just a ~4% buff -- essentially unchanged.
Last edited by Stenhaldi on Thu Apr 24, 2014 2:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Stenhaldi
Exalted
Posts: 591
Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2011 4:49 am

Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Post by Stenhaldi » Thu Apr 24, 2014 2:29 am

If anyone else wants to play with/check my numbers, here are my toy spreadsheets.

feral wod 18164 (now using wowhead's coefficients, meaning rip no longer shows a significant buff)
feral 5.4

file -> "make a copy" or file -> download to edit. Just be warned it's merely something I use for my own calculations, and wasn't intended to make ready sense to other people. "hit" columns show noncrits. "per use" column includes crits and glancing blows and sums all the ticks. It's using pre-squish numbers (but this shouldn't matter) and level 90 rating conversions. I have moonfire there, but am just using its spellpower coefficient for now (and there's not necessarily a reason to believe its attack power coefficient will be the same). The table at the bottom was just for comparing CP builders in various situations (on live) and isn't really of much use right now.

User avatar
aggixx
Exalted
Posts: 2292
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2011 7:49 pm
Contact:

Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Post by aggixx » Thu Apr 24, 2014 9:35 pm

Glyph of Savagery is renamed to Glyph of Savage Roar in the newest build.

Yay!
ImageImage

Whitepaw
Honored
Posts: 130
Joined: Fri Jul 08, 2011 1:00 am

Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Post by Whitepaw » Fri Apr 25, 2014 2:27 am

Our dps rotation will be less complicated post-6.0, by intent and design. I believe we all agree on that.

One of the most lacking areas in our rotation is our finishers. We have four finishers (listed by importance in a PvE scenario, i.e. what gives more dps to keep up/on target):
1. Savage Roar (SR). Self-buff.
2. Rip. Damage over time.
3. Ferocious Bite (FB). Direct damage finisher.
4. Maim. Stun.

I'd like to discuss what can be done to these finishers to make the gameplay more interesting. The premise is that these finishers will stay in WoD and deliver the same effect as they do now in WoD Alpha.

When we look at SR, Rip and FB, they have limited synergy. SR is mandatory (and latest patch made it even more so) and neither optional nor situational. At the same time, it lasts for a fairly long time and can be made completely passive with a talent. This, in my opinion, makes it less interesting, but since Blizzard seems fixed on it's current functionality, we could borrow a page from Assassination rogues and have it auto-refresh during dps rotation. So, instead of a new Rip extending the "old" Rip (Pandemic-mechanic), Rip could extend SR.

This would allow more FB (not a lot more, but FB could become a normal part of our PvE rotation - and below 25%, FB would refresh both Rip and SR, so we sould have some added burst) and it would free up a level 100 talent slot. Passive SR seems a tad uninteresting to me. This change would promote active, aggressive gameplay; it would still punish players not watching if SR is up; and it would change our rotation to a more bursty one when the target is below 25%.

We also have Maim. With less CC, Maim becomes more important - but only if the PvE encounters encourage the use of CC. The developers really should build PvE encounters around the fact that all dps specs now have viable CC (this was not the case in TBC, which lead to rivers of tears in the harsh new Heroic instances in TBC). So, we just need mobs which hit hard and are stunnable. Then Maim will, once again, be needed. This would make our rotation on such mobs more difficult, but still doable.

User avatar
Tinderhoof
Exalted
Posts: 2234
Joined: Mon May 24, 2010 10:21 pm

Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Post by Tinderhoof » Fri Apr 25, 2014 4:28 am

Whitepaw wrote:Passive SR seems a tad uninteresting to me. This change would promote active, aggressive gameplay; it would still punish players not watching if SR is up; and it would change our rotation to a more bursty one when the target is below 25%.
I agree that the Savagery talent is very uninteresting. The problem is the auto refreshing mechanic you describe for Savage Roar IS just making it passive with out the talent. Open with the stealth glyph and never have to pay attention again. Because Rip only lasts for 22 seconds (officially) and SR is 43 there is no way you are going to need to care unless you are off the boss for over 30 seconds. Because SR is fire and forget for the whole fight we would already be using those extra combo points for FB. That means sub 25% we would continue to be casting the same number of "extra" FB's for not refreshing SR.

I do like the idea of actually needing to use Maim, and the combo point change would make using it much more practical as a quick back up stun if Mighty Bash is on cooldown. I think managing bleeds on multiple targets is where the new challenge/new game play is going to be focused on.

Whitepaw
Honored
Posts: 130
Joined: Fri Jul 08, 2011 1:00 am

Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Post by Whitepaw » Fri Apr 25, 2014 4:59 am

I agree that the Savagery talent is very uninteresting. The problem is the auto refreshing mechanic you describe for Savage Roar IS just making it passive with out the talent. Open with the stealth glyph and never have to pay attention again. Because Rip only lasts for 22 seconds (officially) and SR is 43 there is no way you are going to need to care unless you are off the boss for over 30 seconds. Because SR is fire and forget for the whole fight we would already be using those extra combo points for FB. That means sub 25% we would continue to be casting the same number of "extra" FB's for not refreshing SR.
With these changes, SR duration would have to be shortened. How low should we go on SR max duration? That's a good question, but something between 20-30 seconds seems appropriate.
I think managing bleeds on multiple targets is where the new challenge/new game play is going to be focused on.
Agreed. The point of having Rip extend SR is to further support this type of gameplay - in both PvE and PvP. But also to change up our rotation somewhat. Right now, we just Rip and SR until 25%, then we FB and SR. With Rip extending SR, we would be doing more FB (below 25%, a LOT more), which would reward use of dps cooldowns/consumables (both own and raid wide) more than now. With a shorter SR, we would have to maintain SR by being aggressive on target(s), instead of pooling combo points and energy in order to get the best possible bleeds as we do now.

On a sidenote: My proposed changes should also make crit and haste more valuable, as FB would do more damage.

Instead of the Savagery talent, I'd like something that could copy DoTs/HoTs/Threat between old target and new target. So, for a Feral, that would copy all your bleeds to a new target, same for a Moonkin DoTs, Resto would have HoTs copied over, and Guardians would have DoTs and Threat copied over (easing a pick up of a new add). Obviously, there should be a cooldown on this talent :P

User avatar
Stenhaldi
Exalted
Posts: 591
Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2011 4:49 am

Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Post by Stenhaldi » Fri Apr 25, 2014 5:11 am

Whitepaw wrote:With these changes, SR duration would have to be shortened. How low should we go on SR max duration? That's a good question, but something between 20-30 seconds seems appropriate.
That still makes savage roar meaningless. If savage roar lasts shorter than rip, then you'll just cast rip that much more frequently.

If you're going to make savage roar automatically refresh, then you might as well just remove it. And if you want to remove it, there's a talent for that. The roar-rip-bite balancing act has been a staple of the spec since it first got a rotation more complicated than "rip, mangle, shred to 4-5 CP, repeat (insert powershifting)" and I don't see, and would not want, Blizzard taking that away.

It's also not the case that we only cast savage roar and rip above 25%. You cast ferocious bite to bleed off extra combo points -- and that will be especially true once we no longer need to keep combo points pooled all the time for the purpose of snapshotting.

User avatar
Stenhaldi
Exalted
Posts: 591
Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2011 4:49 am

Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Post by Stenhaldi » Fri Apr 25, 2014 5:16 am

A tangential remark regarding maim:

Maim is actually a very interesting spell from a damage perspective because it deals the same amount of damage regardless of combo points. This means if it were worth casting for its damage, then ideally you'd cast it at 1 combo point, which means you'd want to juggle your combo points so that you only have 1 when its cooldown comes up.

Not saying it's necessarily a good idea to make maim worth casting. This sort of CP management is kind of nonintuitive and could get annoying. Just noting it as an interesting thing to think about.

User avatar
Stenhaldi
Exalted
Posts: 591
Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2011 4:49 am

Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Post by Stenhaldi » Fri Apr 25, 2014 5:31 am

Also, maim is never going to be useful as a stun in (20-man) raids on any regular basis for the simple reason that there are plenty of other players with access to cheaper yet equally strong stuns. DR is a much more significant issue than cooldown availability in this context -- there will almost always be stuns available. The only "expensive" stun that is ever regularly used is Kidney Shot, since it a) lasts longer than other stuns and b) increases damage taken by the target from all sources.

Whitepaw
Honored
Posts: 130
Joined: Fri Jul 08, 2011 1:00 am

Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Post by Whitepaw » Fri Apr 25, 2014 5:57 am

If you're going to make savage roar automatically refresh, then you might as well just remove it.
That's only true if you stay on target. As soon as you' don't - and SR duration is shortened - then you'll still need to keep an eye on it.

Right now, we're juggling 3 finishers with 0 synergy. When on target, it's just a selfbuff you need to manually refresh every 42 seconds; there's really nothing to it, except that it lowers our burst damage and feels unrewarding. With Rip refreshing it, our rotation would have some added burst, but we would still have to watch SR when leaving our target.
The roar-rip-bite balancing act has been a staple of the spec since it first got a rotation more complicated than "rip, mangle, shred to 4-5 CP, repeat (insert powershifting)" and I don't see, and would not want, Blizzard taking that away.
Yep, that's the way it's been since we hit level 75 in WotLK back in November 2008, but Blizzard has changed SR several times. The best implementation was undoubtedly in Cataclysm, when it buffed our auto attacks (by 50/80/100%). Now, it's becoming so important that there's no choice: You just renew it, no matter what. It doesn't help that FB does so little damage per combo point/energy.

So, unlike you, I don't really see what's won in added and fun gameplay by keeping SR as it is now - without synergy to other finishers. My muscle memory is now so attached to my left pinky that I press the mapped key on my G19 out of reflex, when needed. I'd rather press my Rip and FB key more often, tbh :lol: Instead of a selfbuff, I see a parking brake that I need to release ever so often. I know that my proposed changes would cause balancing changes, but at least we'd be able to frontload some damage, instead of backloading it between several gates (SR being the biggest of those, but 3/4 DoTs and a debuff AND a double ressource system handle the gating pretty well already).

And yes, Feral is a dot-based and backloaded spec now - but we've been much better balanced between frontloaded and backloaded damage in previous expansions. We started in TBC with Mangle/Shred letting us frontload (also in bear - Mangle was king until nerfed!), we then became backloaded in WotLK until Armor Penetration became king in patch 3.2/3.3, with Cata we became somewhat balanced again (SR became more optional as it only buffed auto-attacks), and in MoP we have become extremely backloaded (and snap-shotting only supports that).

I'd rather move from a laid-back cat fite style to more frontloaded damage. Right now, it feels contrary to our lore: We're these viscious druids, shifting to an animal form that's rightfully feared - until we need several hundred energy points to slowly build up our damage.

It's somewhat of the same problem with Guardians: They charge into battle and quickly use their accumulated Rage to...dodge moar :oops:
Also, maim is never going to be useful as a stun in (20-man) raids on any regular basis for the simple reason that there are plenty of other players with access to cheaper yet equally strong stuns. DR is a much more significant issue than cooldown availability in this context -- there will almost always be stuns available. The only "expensive" stun that is ever regularly used is Kidney Shot, since it a) lasts longer than other stuns and b) increases damage taken by the target from all sources.
That depends on what you stun, how many targets you need to stun and why you need to stun. But yes, Kidney Shot will probably continue to be the superior stun. Personally, I'd much prefer the Maim from WotLK, with added damage on the target from Shred (via a glyph, iirc). But there are several reasons why the devs will never go back to that kind of CC/interrupt.

PS: I am fully aware of the PvP aspect. All dps specs have some kind of ramp-up to avoid globalling opponents. We're just too far from being able to frontload at the moment. We can't really perform finishers that kill a target; instead, they slowly bleed out. It's more a question of negating healing to our target than performing a coup de grace.

User avatar
Stenhaldi
Exalted
Posts: 591
Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2011 4:49 am

Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Post by Stenhaldi » Fri Apr 25, 2014 6:26 am

I'm not sure what you mean when you talk about synergy between finishers. Having actual synergy between finishers -- where one finisher makes another stronger -- would only worsen ramp-up, since you'd need to cast both (in fact you could say that's the case now with savage roar, though that's a little deceptive since it also buffs all other attacks).

Having one finisher automatically cast another is not synergy. It's actually the opposite. Synergy is when casting one spell makes the other one stronger. In that system, casting one spell makes the other one worthless.

User avatar
Stenhaldi
Exalted
Posts: 591
Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2011 4:49 am

Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Post by Stenhaldi » Fri Apr 25, 2014 6:39 am

Also, tiger's fury solves most issues with backloaded damage. You can have roar, rip, and rake up in 5-6 seconds with just a full energy bar and TF. I've never considered feral to have poor ramp-up on first engagement. It can have poor ramp-up on target switching (since TF might not be available) but that's mostly solved by the CP change, and isn't affected by savage roar anyway.

In any situation where savage roar is unavoidably down, tiger's fury is necessarily up.

Whitepaw
Honored
Posts: 130
Joined: Fri Jul 08, 2011 1:00 am

Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Post by Whitepaw » Fri Apr 25, 2014 7:05 am

I'm not sure what you mean when you talk about synergy between finishers. Having actual synergy between finishers -- where one finisher makes another stronger -- would only worsen ramp-up, since you'd need to cast both (in fact you could say that's the case now with savage roar, though that's a little deceptive since it also buffs all other attacks).
Merriam-Webster:
Synergy (noun): the increased effectiveness that results when two or more people or businesses work together
Replace businesses/people with finishers :D

So, it's increased effectiveness - not that they should buff each other.

The idea of Rip buffing SR is ofc borrowed from Assassination rogues' Envenom refreshing Slice and Dice (S&D). The rotation of an Assassination rogue just seems more elegant and more rewarding than a Feral's. Rupture delivers damage and speeds up energy regeneration, Envenom refreshes S&D and adds a short poison damage buff. Assassination rogues have the same number of finishers, but the relation between these are more interesting and carry a lot more synergy.

A Feral, on the other hand, just have these 3 finishers that sometimes even work against each other. Pressing SR is just a precondition to do any kind of viable damage. For an Assassination rogue, S&D is refreshed by Envenom - which, when used, is buffed by S&D! It's an elegant solution and it makes spending the combo points feel more rewarding and exciting.
Also, tiger's fury solves most issues with backloaded damage. You can have roar, rip, and rake up in 5-6 seconds with just a full energy bar and TF. I've never considered feral to have poor ramp-up on first engagement. It can have poor ramp-up on target switching (since TF might not be available) but that's mostly solved by the CP change, and isn't affected by savage roar anyway.
That's true, especially for encounters in the "Patchwerk" genre (single target, both boss and Feral is fairly stationary). But the more chaotic the encounter, the more prevalent ramp-up time will become. Examples of fights in MoP that are or can be quite chaotic: Horridon, Norushen, Galakrass, Dark Shaman, Garrosh. I hope for more of these fights - the point of a BOSS moving into battle without adds just seems more than a tad unlikely to me :shock:

The combo point change will alleviate this somewhat - together with the removal of snapshotting. But we'll still be too gated and backloaded in my opinion.

User avatar
Stenhaldi
Exalted
Posts: 591
Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2011 4:49 am

Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Post by Stenhaldi » Fri Apr 25, 2014 7:55 am

Whitepaw wrote:So, it's increased effectiveness - not that they should buff each other.
Right. That's the same thing. Synergy is the situation where the combination is more powerful than both actors separately. If rip refreshed savage roar, then you'd have an anti-synergetic situation where the combination is not only no more powerful than both actors separately -- it's no more powerful than just a single actor, Rip.

Semantics aside, there is a worthwhile point here. The purpose of adding real synergy between spells is to make them more interesting to use. Synergy between unleash elements and flame shock complicates the decision on when to refresh flame shock. Synergy between envenom and mutilate adds a planning element to your envenom timing. Synergy between TF and bleeds; between enrage, colossus smash, and storm bolt (or other attacks); between devouring plague and mind flay (insanity) -- all of these add elements to consider in executing a rotation, making the class more interesting to play.

Making rip refresh savage roar does the opposite: it removes a rotational element altogether, reducing interest.
Whitepaw wrote:The idea of Rip buffing SR is ofc borrowed from Assassination rogues' Envenom refreshing Slice and Dice (S&D). The rotation of an Assassination rogue just seems more elegant and more rewarding than a Feral's. Rupture delivers damage and speeds up energy regeneration, Envenom refreshes S&D and adds a short poison damage buff. Assassination rogues have the same number of finishers, but the relation between these are more interesting and carry a lot more synergy.

A Feral, on the other hand, just have these 3 finishers that sometimes even work against each other. Pressing SR is just a precondition to do any kind of viable damage. For an Assassination rogue, S&D is refreshed by Envenom - which, when used, is buffed by S&D! It's an elegant solution and it makes spending the combo points feel more rewarding and exciting.
And assassination rogues are losing Slice and Dice in Warlords of Draenor for precisely that reason. It's not a meaningful button for them because they just cast it once on engaging the target and it's up for the rest of the fight. It's not rewarding or exciting. It's essentially just a passive effect that happens to require a button and a timer just to handle the extremely rare circumstance where it might fall off.

Savage roar, on the other hand, is a meaningful button for feral. You need to plan your resource usage around its timer. You need to plan its timer around your anticipated resource usage.
Whitepaw wrote:That's true, especially for encounters in the "Patchwerk" genre (single target, both boss and Feral is fairly stationary). But the more chaotic the encounter, the more prevalent ramp-up time will become. Examples of fights in MoP that are or can be quite chaotic: Horridon, Norushen, Galakrass, Dark Shaman, Garrosh. I hope for more of these fights - the point of a BOSS moving into battle without adds just seems more than a tad unlikely to me :shock:
Right, I agree there's an issue with ramp-up on target switching, but I don't see how savage roar affects it. Savage roar still lasts just as long no matter how often you have to switch targets.

ShmooDude
Exalted
Posts: 1077
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2011 5:51 pm

Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Post by ShmooDude » Fri Apr 25, 2014 8:54 am

My problem with Savage Roar is more with its effect. X% Physical Damage increase is like everyone says, just a maintain 100% of the time thing. The big difference is it has no other affect on our rotation (which is part of Whitepaw's complaint). The other pure X% damage increase from Ret paladins has been removed and their damage balanced around it. The last similar ability is Slice N Dice, which is 40% attack speed (not haste, so doesn't affect energy regen or proc rate for rppm), but this has other ancillary benefits for combat rogues. For Combat, it increases energy regen through Combat Potency.

What if instead, Savage Roar increased say, Haste and Crit by 20%. Or Savage Roar makes your multistrike crits generate a combo point (would make for some very interesting game play I would think as more bleeds would = more combo points in multitarget scenarios). If that's too powerful, it could be only certain abilities or only a % chance on ms crit. Others might be able to come up with some better ideas. My point is something other than "use before any other damaging ability" as its only thought process.

Vularo
Posts: 13
Joined: Sun Sep 01, 2013 9:15 am

Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Post by Vularo » Fri Apr 25, 2014 10:13 am

my idea is make savage roar a dmg cd for bleeds. like 100% more hasted bleeds, or increased crit /dmg for it. if we are still a so heavy bleed spec, why we dont have any dmg cd for our main dmg source?

User avatar
aggixx
Exalted
Posts: 2292
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2011 7:49 pm
Contact:

Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Post by aggixx » Fri Apr 25, 2014 11:55 am

ShmooDude wrote:What if instead, Savage Roar increased say, Haste and Crit by 20%. Or Savage Roar makes your multistrike crits generate a combo point (would make for some very interesting game play I would think as more bleeds would = more combo points in multitarget scenarios). If that's too powerful, it could be only certain abilities or only a % chance on ms crit. Others might be able to come up with some better ideas. My point is something other than "use before any other damaging ability" as its only thought process.
It's hard to make changes like that because it can have complex implications on scaling. I believe so far no DPS classes have any mechanics that interact with multistrike so giving us a synergy with it would probably make it our best stat (since it has to be tuned to be competitive for everyone else). The same can be said for crit to some degree, and I don't see increased haste being any more interesting than increased physical damage.
Vularo wrote:my idea is make savage roar a dmg cd for bleeds. like 100% more hasted bleeds, or increased crit /dmg for it. if we are still a so heavy bleed spec, why we dont have any dmg cd for our main dmg source?
I don't think I'd be a huge fan of this if it didn't cost combo points, it would basically be a significantly less interactive combustion and wouldn't affect our normal rotation.

That said, I think if it cost combo points it has potential to be pretty cool, for example:

Savage Roar
40 second cooldown
You roar savagely, intimidating the enemy and causing him to somehow take more damage from your bleeds. Affected enemies take damage from your bleeds more frequently, varying depending on the amount of combo points consumed. Last 10 seconds.
1 combo point: Enemies take damage 30% more frequently.
2 combo points: Enemies take damage 35% more frequently.
3 combo points: Enemies take damage 40% more frequently.
4 combo points: Enemies take damage 45% more frequently.
5 combo points: Enemies take damage 50% more frequently.

The rotational implications of this would actually be pretty similar to current Savage Roar. You would still be encouraged to maximize uptime, but in this case it would be by minimizing the amount of time it is off cooldown. This means you're encouraged to prevent the spell from coming off cooldown and your bleeds ending at the same time, similar to how you are now. It would have some cooldown play implications, but doesn't synergize with berserk (only tiger's fury) so you wouldn't have too much issues with cooldown stacking getting to absurdity. I suspect this wouldn't feel as punishing to less-skilled players as having a cooldown off cooldown for a bit or your bleeds falling off for a second mid-way wouldn't be as tangibly detrimental as maintaining a buff that hugely modifies all your damage.

Would like to flesh out this idea more but I've gotta go grab lunch. Interested to hear others' thoughts.
ImageImage

User avatar
Tinderhoof
Exalted
Posts: 2234
Joined: Mon May 24, 2010 10:21 pm

Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Post by Tinderhoof » Fri Apr 25, 2014 12:23 pm

aggixx wrote:ShmooDude wrote:What if instead, Savage Roar increased say, Haste and Crit by 20%. Or Savage Roar makes your multistrike crits generate a combo point (would make for some very interesting game play I would think as more bleeds would = more combo points in multitarget scenarios). If that's too powerful, it could be only certain abilities or only a % chance on ms crit. Others might be able to come up with some better ideas. My point is something other than "use before any other damaging ability" as its only thought process.It's hard to make changes like that because it can have complex implications on scaling. I believe so far no DPS classes have any mechanics that interact with multistrike so giving us a synergy with it would probably make it our best stat (since it has to be tuned to be competitive for everyone else).
Tinderhoof wrote:Having Savage Roar buff a secondary stat of any kind would likely make us favor that stat over all others. This would go against the goal of having all stats viable. This happened previously during the first iteration of Savage Roar which buffed our AP by 30%. All Ferals did was stack Strength because it gave the most AP.
It's like an echo in here :^ )
Vularo wrote:my idea is make savage roar a dmg cd for bleeds. like 100% more hasted bleeds, or increased crit /dmg for it.
The problem with any suggestion like this is 2 fold.
1. It changes nothing with our rotation what so ever. With buffs like that it would still be required to be up 100% of the time. All that would change would be the tool tip. It wouldn't make SR any better or any worse to have it drop off (as all secondary procs are dynamic).
2. While the rotation wouldn't change there would be a massive amount of work in the background to try and rebalance everything for no actual gain of the player.

This is what I have been talking about in a few places about SR being a perception problem. While it is important to the rotation no one feels excited to press it and sad if they don't. Making it flashy though would only change the perception and not gameplay.

User avatar
AsgardFM
Honored
Posts: 151
Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2011 2:28 pm
Location: England

Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Post by AsgardFM » Fri Apr 25, 2014 12:28 pm

aggixx wrote: Savage Roar
40 second cooldown
You roar savagely, intimidating the enemy and causing him to somehow take more damage from your bleeds. Affected enemies take damage from your bleeds more frequently, varying depending on the amount of combo points consumed. Last 10 seconds.
1 combo point: Enemies take damage 10% more frequently.
2 combo point: Enemies take damage 20% more frequently.
3 combo point: Enemies take damage 30% more frequently.
4 combo point: Enemies take damage 40% more frequently.
5 combo point: Enemies take damage 50% more frequently.

The rotational implications of this would actually be pretty similar to current Savage Roar. You would still be encouraged to maximize uptime, but in this case it would be by minimizing the amount of time it is off cooldown. This means you're encouraged to prevent the spell from coming off cooldown and your bleeds ending at the same time, similar to how you are now. It would have some cooldown play implications, but doesn't synergize with berserk (only tiger's fury) so you wouldn't have too much issues with cooldown stacking getting to absurdity. I suspect this wouldn't feel as punishing to less-skilled players as having a cooldown off cooldown for a bit or your bleeds falling off for a second mid-way wouldn't be as tangibly detrimental as maintaining a buff that hugely modifies all your damage.

Would like to flesh out this idea more but I've gotta go grab lunch. Interested to hear others' thoughts.
I'm all for keeping SR as part of our managed rotation (CP cost, manual refresh, etc) yet do feel the +damage% needs changing. We've all become used to seeing it in the current state but if you look at the Savagery talent it basically reads "Increases your damage by 45%". To me, that just highlights that almost half our damage is from a single ability. Nothing else in the game comes close to this level of importance in a rotation yet, without Savage Roar our priority list becomes inanely simple.
The downside is thinking of ways to make it both viable and interesting (not necessarily in the act of casting but ANYTHING is more interesting than a flat % damage boost).

Aggixx, I do think you're on to a good idea with having it as a non-permanent ability is a good one (cooldown based) but I feel 10 sec every 40 is a bit on the low side.
Perhaps an idea would be to look at something similar to Mage's Ignite. "For the next 15 seconds, 5/10/15/20/25% (CP based) of the damage done by your Shred and Ravage abilities is added to your current Rip ticks"
Rip ticking for 200.
Cast Savage Roar.
Shred hits for 100.
Rip ticks for 225.
Shred crits for 150.
Rip ticks for 262.5
It adds a bit of interplay between the two finishers yet stops uber stacking as Rip eventually has to be re-cast. Also makes us value haste & crit (more Shreds in this window), keeps mastery relevant, Readiness would reduce SR cooldown and Multistrike gives a chance of double-boost from a Shred.
Potential problem when FB is added <25% and you might indefinitely increase Rip damage a bit too much with that.

I got a bit carried away for what was meant to be a post just stating that current SR needs a change but what the hell.
TL:DR, I agree with aggixx. SR should not be rotation death if it fades without Rip already active.

User avatar
aggixx
Exalted
Posts: 2292
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2011 7:49 pm
Contact:

Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Post by aggixx » Fri Apr 25, 2014 12:37 pm

More comments on my Savage Roar idea:

After thinking about it some more, it would make more sense for it to be 25% + combopoints * 5% so it's less punishing to use it at few CP (but 5 CP would still be optimal in 99% of cases). Edited my post to reflect this.

As far as cooldown goes, there's two things to watch out for:
1. Changing Savage Roar from what it is now to something with a very long cooldown would mean that our "normal" rotation would have reduced complexity, for that reason I don't think I would want said cooldown to be any longer than 1 minute.
2. You have to be careful about how the cooldown lines up with Tiger's Fury so it doesn't turn in to "always use with tiger's fury" or "always use with every Xth tiger's fury". Assuming you want to prevent this (because it's boring), that rules out a cooldown of 25-35 seconds as well as one of around 50 or higher. That is why I chose 40 seconds (plus it mimics the current maximum duration of Savage Roar).

On an unrelated point, yes this change would increase the value of both mastery and readiness, but since those two both have spec-specific coefficients it can be tuned around relatively easily. Also worth mentioning, it wouldn't "accelerate" the bleed, it would just make tick more often, meaning that the duration of the bleed would not be affected.

Overall I'm pretty happy with the idea, I think it would be quite fun to play and I don't see any detrimental implications (yet).
AsgardFM wrote:Aggixx, I do think you're on to a good idea with having it as a non-permanent ability is a good one (cooldown based) but I feel 10 sec every 40 is a bit on the low side.
The goal isn't so much to maintain the same effectiveness, just to change the ability so that's more compelling and less punishing to less-skilled players, while being in the spirit of the current incarnation of the spell. It might only affect our bleeds for one quarter of the fight, but I'm positive that this would have implications on how you play for a lot more than just that.

Although maybe you meant 40 seconds was too low of a cooldown, not sure. If that's the case I would disagree for the reason I already stated above.
AsgardFM wrote:Perhaps an idea would be to look at something similar to Mage's Ignite. "For the next 15 seconds, 5/10/15/20/25% (CP based) of the damage done by your Shred and Ravage abilities is added to your current Rip ticks"

It adds a bit of interplay between the two finishers yet stops uber stacking as Rip eventually has to be re-cast. Also makes us value haste & crit (more Shreds in this window), keeps mastery relevant, Readiness would reduce SR cooldown and Multistrike gives a chance of double-boost from a Shred.
Potential problem when FB is added <25% and you might indefinitely increase Rip damage a bit too much with that.
My complaints with that would be:
1. I don't think there's any real reason for it to interact with Rip when it could just be an independent DoT.
2. It doesn't really have big rotational implications unless you have some other mechanic that interacts with that bleed.

But I'm glad you agree with my perspective of changing the ability.
ImageImage

Satrion
Posts: 34
Joined: Sun May 29, 2011 5:29 am

Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Post by Satrion » Fri Apr 25, 2014 4:00 pm

I don't understand why so many of you want to change feral to a different class. The people calling for SR to just go away want us to be rogues and Aggixx, you basically invented Feral Haunt. If I wanted to do that I would play a warlock.

I like that feral is a maintenance class. Many others are all about burst windows that make up the bulk of you damage and everything in between is relatively negligible. Feral is one of the few classes that is about making lots of little choices where your damage is based on your ratio of good choices to bad ones. Most of those choices come from deciding which of three finishers to use. Cutting it to two for whatever reason greatly diminishes depth, complexity, and (in my opinion) fun. Over the years, the times I have liked feral the least is when FB was tuned to be garbage and was almost never used outside of berserk.

I personally think the savagery talent is an excellent solution so long as it is balanced properly. Moonfire should be the single target / ranged multidot option, rake spread should be the cleave / sustained AoE option, and Savagery should be the middle of the road option. It would also be for people who are willing to take a small hit to theoretical dps because they either don't play well enough to do their full theoretical dps or just don't want to deal with the SR. It is nice for people like me who suck at pvp (plus you already have three finishers in pvp when you include Maim). It is also so nice for just running around and farming stuff or doing dailies.

I got a bit off topic, but my point is I think SR serves a good purpose as it is and none of the ideas proposed so far look good to me. Changing the effect for more "synergy" (as Tinder said) changes nothing but the tooltip. Making rip or FB refresh it is the same as removing it. Aggixx idea is at least interesting, but I think it is too much like haunt or Colossus Smash to be something I would enjoy. My feeling is the fundamental rotation isn't broken and there is no need to "fix" it with a SR overhaul.

User avatar
Stenhaldi
Exalted
Posts: 591
Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2011 4:49 am

Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Post by Stenhaldi » Fri Apr 25, 2014 6:33 pm

My thought would be to leave base savage roar as it is and to change the Savagery talent so that instead of outright removing savage roar, it changes savage roar into a cooldown ability along the lines discussed above (20-60 second CD, 5-15 second duration). Naturally, the talent could still also grant a passive damage multiplier -- just a smaller one.

Benefits:
- Makes Savagery do something interesting, as opposed to the present situation where it does nothing but remove an ability from the rotation.
- Gives Savagery a useful niche in that talent tier.
- Still appeases the "hate maintenance buffs" crowd. Actually they should be even happier about such a change, because their talent choice is no longer explicitly the "easy" one.

ShmooDude
Exalted
Posts: 1077
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2011 5:51 pm

Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Post by ShmooDude » Fri Apr 25, 2014 9:13 pm

aggixx wrote:It's hard to make changes like that because it can have complex implications on scaling. I believe so far no DPS classes have any mechanics that interact with multistrike so giving us a synergy with it would probably make it our best stat (since it has to be tuned to be competitive for everyone else). The same can be said for crit to some degree, and I don't see increased haste being any more interesting than increased physical damage.
Yeah, obviously we wouldn't want it to become the best. There are however, other classes that interact specifically with multistrike:
Alpha Patch Notes wrote:Windwalkers:
Tiger Strikes is now available to all Monk specializations, and has a chance to trigger on successful auto attacks and their Multistrikes. It has an 8% chance to trigger while using a two-handed weapon, and a 5% chance to trigger while dual wielding.
When triggered, Tiger Strikes now grants +50% to Multistrike for 8 seconds instead of +50% to attack speed and double attacks for 4 attacks.

Frost Mages:
Frost Armor now grants 15% chance to Multistrike instead of 7% Haste.
Glyph of Icy Veins now causes Icy Veins to provide 75% chance to Multistrike, instead of 20% Haste.
The Brain Freeze effect no longer makes Frostfire Bolt instant, but it can now stack to 2. It also no longer triggers from the Bomb Talents, and instead has a 10% chance to trigger from Frostbolt casts. Each Multistrike of Frostbolt increases that cast's chance by an additional 45%. (Total of 100% on double-Multistrikes).
That's kind of where I got the idea from. The way I put it (all multistrikes) is probably way too much, but if we did say, shred multistrike crits, it might work out as this would both increase the value of haste (which is traditionally low for us) and multistrike (generally about the same value as crit, but since it also interacts with crit, you'd want both to a degree most likely).

teddabear
Revered
Posts: 346
Joined: Tue Dec 25, 2012 6:56 am

Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Post by teddabear » Sat Apr 26, 2014 12:24 am

Stenhaldi wrote:Based on wowdb's coefficients, 50-energy ferocious bite does about as much damage as 1.8 to 2.4 rip ticks (depending on mastery/crit levels).

I'm not sure if those coefficients are correct, though. They might be taking feral base mastery into account. Wowhead reports a 20% smaller coefficient, which would put 50-energy ferocious bite at 2.3 to 3 rip ticks.

If the wowdb coefficient is indeed incorrect in this manner, then this also lowers the estimate of rip's change relative to live to just a ~4% buff -- essentially unchanged.
Now that Blizzard has started changing abilities for PvP I don't see why they can't make FB do comparable damage to Rip for PvE.

User avatar
Tinderhoof
Exalted
Posts: 2234
Joined: Mon May 24, 2010 10:21 pm

Re: Warlords of Draenor™ Alpha Testing Begins

Post by Tinderhoof » Sat Apr 26, 2014 10:32 am

Define comparable.

Post Reply