Alpha Build 18297 Datamining

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Satrion
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Alpha Build 18297 Datamining

Post by Satrion » Thu May 22, 2014 1:53 am

The datamining info from the latest alpha build is up on MMO Champion. The usual caveats are in place. This is Datamining from an alpha build which means everything can and probably will change before it goes live. That being said, here is the feral related stuff:

1. A bunch of damage spell changes that don't mean anything without context.

2. Rake Rake the target for 0 Bleed damage and an additional 0 Bleed damage over 15 sec. Awards 1 combo points. If used while stealthed, the target will be stunned for 4 sec. Requires Cat Form. 35 Energy. Melee range. Instant.

Bolded part is the major new thing. I assume that is to go along with number 4.

3. Shred Shred the target, causing 365% 245% damage to the target and reducing the target's movement speed by 50% for 12 sec. Damage increased 35% while stealthed, and increased 20% against bleeding targets.

Bolded part is the major new thing. I assume that is to go along with number 4.

4. Incarnation: King of the Jungle An improved Cat Form that allows the use of Prowl while in combat, and removes the positional requirement of Ravage causes Shred and Rake to function as if stealth were active. Lasts 30 sec. You may shapeshift in and out of this improved Cat Form for its duration. Druid - LvL 60 Talent. Instant. 3 min cooldown.

Looks like they are giving feral a ghetto vanish and a fairly spammable 4 sec stun on a 3 min CD. Very interesting PvP implications. We will have to see how the damage breakdown looks to see if Incarnation will still be terrible for PvE. It looks like it will be tuned to be a legitimate contender with SotF and Ents.

5. Talent Bloodtalons (was Bloody Thrash) Casting Healing Touch causes your next two melee abilities to deal 30% additional damage. Druid - LvL 0 Talent.

I saved what will likely be the most controversial change for last. It looks like they are bringing back the damage functionality of DoC and scrapping the rake spreading. I for one am super excited for this as I really enjoyed what DoC did for the rotation this expansion. I know there are many on this site and other places that would disagree with me. It leaves us still a bit lacking in the cleave department, but I think the Combo Point change will actually make a pretty big difference there by itself.

6. Glyph of Savage Roar When using Pounce or Ravage while Prowling, you are granted Savage Roar as if it were used with 5 combo points. Major Glyph.

Actually one more thing. There was a small rewording for the new Glyph of Savagery.

So what does everyone think?

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Re: Alpha Build 18297 Datamining

Post by teddabear » Thu May 22, 2014 2:14 am

Satrion wrote: I saved what will likely be the most controversial change for last. It looks like they are bringing back the damage functionality of DoC and scrapping the rake spreading. I for one am super excited for this as I really enjoyed what DoC did for the rotation this expansion. I know there are many on this site and other places that would disagree with me. It leaves us still a bit lacking in the cleave department, but I think the Combo Point change will actually make a pretty big difference there by itself.
I disagree, the combo point change won't even be a poor man's cleave. It's better than a poke in the eye but Feral will still be very bad at most add fights.

That 50% nerf to Shred is pretty harsh. They do know we are losing snapshotting right?

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Re: Alpha Build 18297 Datamining

Post by Treeba » Thu May 22, 2014 2:15 am

Not super in love with getting DoC back, but the rest all sounds awesome.

Satrion
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Re: Alpha Build 18297 Datamining

Post by Satrion » Thu May 22, 2014 2:30 am

teddabear wrote: I disagree, the combo point change won't even be a poor man's cleave. It's better than a poke in the eye but Feral will still be very bad at most add fights.

That 50% nerf to Shred is pretty harsh. They do know we are losing snapshotting right?
Combo points on us means it should be easy to keep a rip, rake, and thrash (and maybe moonfire depending on how good the talent is) up on 2 targets, and doable on up to 4 targets. That is a pretty good chunk of damage. Any more targets than that or if they won't live that long and thrash/swipe still works fine. I'm not saying feral will be great at cleave, I'm just saying we won't be quite as bad as we traditionally have been.

I really wouldn't worry about any of the damage numbers. With the changes to weapon damage/AP formulas and the Draenor Perks and general scaling stuff, none of those numbers have any relation to what is currently in game. There is plenty of time to fine tune the numbers once the functionality is locked in.

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Tinderhoof
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Re: Alpha Build 18297 Datamining

Post by Tinderhoof » Thu May 22, 2014 2:38 am

teddabear wrote: That 50% nerf to Shred is pretty harsh. They do know we are losing snapshotting right?
Ya going to put a stop to this right here. No whining about data mined changes. They are reworking how everything fits together. We are going to be fine.

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Stenhaldi
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Re: Alpha Build 18297 Datamining

Post by Stenhaldi » Thu May 22, 2014 3:24 am

teddabear wrote:That 50% nerf to Shred is pretty harsh. They do know we are losing snapshotting right?
Weapon damage abilities got cut across the board -- look at the other classes like DK, rogue, hunter, shaman, warrior. I wonder if this is indicative of another systems change with regard to weapon damage.

Edit: oops, it's not just weapon damage. Spellpower coefficients were reduced across the board as well.
Last edited by Stenhaldi on Thu May 22, 2014 5:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Stenhaldi
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Re: Alpha Build 18297 Datamining

Post by Stenhaldi » Thu May 22, 2014 3:33 am

Also, since it hasn't been mentioned yet, it seems pretty obvious that pounce and ravage are getting removed from the game, with rake and shred gaining stealth (and incarnation) bonuses to compensate.

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Stenhaldi
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Re: Alpha Build 18297 Datamining

Post by Stenhaldi » Thu May 22, 2014 3:40 am

Oh and another notable change that wasn't mentioned yet:

Dream of Cenarius - "Your Healing Touch and Rejuvenation also heal you as well, when you heal someone else."

This is in addition to its old +20% healing effect.

I wonder how this will work with rejuvenation. At first glance I would have guessed it would simply apply the rejuvenation effect to you whenever you cast it on someone else -- but the wording actually suggests that maybe each time rejuvenation ticks on someone else, it also ticks on you.

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Moosie
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Re: Alpha Build 18297 Datamining

Post by Moosie » Thu May 22, 2014 8:22 am

Let's be fair here, we all expected them to 1) remove the talent completely or 2) nerf it so much that it would only be good in very special cirumstances.

I'm glad they are bringing DoC back, coupled with RoR, those 2 things made feral so fun ToT/SoO, and now that DoC is duplicating the healing on ourselves when cast on someone else, ferals will be able to provide some really nice offhealing too.

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Re: Alpha Build 18297 Datamining

Post by Felics » Thu May 22, 2014 8:53 am

Doc/Bloodtalons changes the way you play feral and permanent SR will change the way you play feral.
Moonfire looks like the odd one out on that tier now. its a small change to gameplay but i cant see when we would use it yet obviously any upcomming changes could fix that.

The new DoC coupled with the high HP pools, improved SI and new reduced damage feral takes will make us pretty study next xp. We are a class that is not GCD locked so putting rejuv up on both tanks and macroing HT to be cast on tank when using it for BloodTalons will be a nice boost to the healing.

Incarnation coupled with improved berserk will give us some good burst damage on fights that need it. hopefully they will balance that row out so we can pick and choose whats best for us/fight as i use FoN on 12/14 fights atm because of RoRo.

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Re: Alpha Build 18297 Datamining

Post by Zstriker » Thu May 22, 2014 9:09 am

Moosie wrote:
Let's be fair here, we all expected them to 1) remove the talent completely or 2) nerf it so much that it would only be good in very special cirumstances.

I'm glad they are bringing DoC back, coupled with RoR, those 2 things made feral so fun ToT/SoO, and now that DoC is duplicating the healing on ourselves when cast on someone else, ferals will be able to provide some really nice offhealing too.
I don't care what is now, as expansion is finished and content is closed for almost everyone, I'm looking for future and want comfort interesting spec, thats is valiable all types of fights not below the middle line
for some it's `fun`, for some it's really furstrating
so why you need a retarded 3 choice tiers when it can't be used for those special cases
and as time has shown that patchwerk style are only few in the whole tier, a huge portion are also adds and cleave fights where that talent logicaly should wins ahead, and those special cases leads to difference in playstyle. Also AoE talent could bring us on pairs with top aoe classes

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Re: Alpha Build 18297 Datamining

Post by Moosie » Thu May 22, 2014 9:21 am

Zstriker wrote: Also AoE talent could bring us on pairs with top aoe classes
Exactly why they are removing it. We are known for our high sustained single target DPS, and ontop of that you want it to compete with the top AoE dps too? Why take anything else then? Feral would cover all areas, no need for any other classes. We are a hybrid class, pure DPS classes get the luxery of being able to play multiple roles, whether it be high single target dps, multi-dotting or insane burst damage. Very few specs have them all, and those that do, are deemed overpowered and will likely be nerfed. If you are looking for the option to fill all DPS roles, sorry to say, but you are likely playing the wrong class.

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DomGF
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Re: Alpha Build 18297 Datamining

Post by DomGF » Thu May 22, 2014 9:46 am

Guess I'm the only one that does not like changing talents 6 times per night? >.> Either way, I was happy they removed DoC mechanic, guess I am back to being sad :C.

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Re: Alpha Build 18297 Datamining

Post by Felics » Thu May 22, 2014 10:16 am

You're making the assumption that DoC will be top dps by the same amount it is today.
There's plenty of time for balancing and even though it is likely that, if performed perfectly, it will be top dps the other 2 talents could be close enough that you don't feel forced to take it. Even now HotW is pretty close to DoC people just over estimate it.

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Re: Alpha Build 18297 Datamining

Post by AsgardFM » Thu May 22, 2014 10:20 am

Zstriker wrote:what a dick move nerfing AoE in cost of fucking Doc mechanic returns...
I know alpha/ unfinished/balancing but if you look at bloody thrash by numbers it was horribly powerful for aoe. Assuming 10 adds you would get equivalent damage of 350 energy from a single thrash at 45 energy. Then consider the % of damage Rake does and, with current SoO numbers, we'd be unstoppable in aoe fights.
I liked the idea but it was a bit too much.

As it is, we have different skill levels available in talents. Or talents for leeway in complex encounters. Passive SR at one side, DoC (new name will take getting used to) at the other or a ranged option in the middle.
DomGF wrote:Guess I'm the only one that does not like changing talents 6 times per night? >.> Either way, I was happy they removed DoC mechanic, guess I am back to being sad :C.
I would rather change talents between bosses (depending on what works better) than keep the same ones for 95% of encounters.

As an unrelated thought, does new Incarnation mean that it doesn't need comboing with berserk for good output now Ravage is gone. Just means we weave Prowl into rotation where we can for damage boosts, stuns and SR renewal.

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Re: Alpha Build 18297 Datamining

Post by Felics » Thu May 22, 2014 10:39 am

I believe the intention of Incarnation now, for pve atleast, is mainly to spam shred with the increased 35% stealth damage. Comboing with improved berserk at this stage seems like the best choice.

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Re: Alpha Build 18297 Datamining

Post by hullaballoonatic » Thu May 22, 2014 10:45 am

I'm so so happy. We get our DoC back, and pounce and ravage are cut, but this has some crazy implications. Since shred and rake cost a lot less energy than Ravage and Pounce, this is a very significant buff to Incarnation (read: overpowered?) not to mention that you could just start throwing 4 second stuns out on every one in range without losing your combo points anymore.

Would have been nice to play DoC with the moonfire talent. Would have made for interesting choices, I believe.

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Re: Alpha Build 18297 Datamining

Post by Elamari » Thu May 22, 2014 11:15 am

Stenhaldi wrote:Also, since it hasn't been mentioned yet, it seems pretty obvious that pounce and ravage are getting removed from the game, with rake and shred gaining stealth (and incarnation) bonuses to compensate.
Ravage is still mentioned in the Incarnation tooltip. That said, I think you are probably correct + glyph of pounce -> glyph of rake.
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Re: Alpha Build 18297 Datamining

Post by aggixx » Thu May 22, 2014 11:47 am

While I'm a little sad Bloody Thrash is gone I'm overall happy with the change, for subjective reason obviously but also objectively was well. Bloody Thrash was just too difficult to balance and it also offers a bit more dumbing down of the spec than I think most people would prefer (we already have a 2nd talent in the tier for that, after all). It is a little unfortunate for those that aren't a fan of the playstyle but really you run that risk regardless of what the talent is, its just that people already have made their decision in this case. I like the name of the talent too despite it not really making all that much sense, can cats even be considered to have talons? 0.o

Dream of Cenarius change is nice, definitely an improvement over its previous unimpressive state. I'm not looking forward to changing my healing touch macro back to hitting the tank and then getting screwed when once in a blue moon the tank is out of range (fuck you Garalon! D:).

Incarnation changes are definitely a step in the right direction for making it a viable PvE talent. Regardless of if the current numbers are over or underpowered (as I imagine bringing it in line will be fairly easy, aside from the spammable stun thing for PvP) I'm excited to be potentially be able to have kitty armor =P. It does make me really hope that they add the talent tier to readiness, having it desync from Berserk despite them both having a 3 minute cooldown would be awkward and unfun. And yes, I realize Soul of the Forest doesn't have a cooldown but they could just have Readiness scale the energy regen (10% readiness would bosst the energy gain from 4 to 4.4); it would be a somewhat clunky solution but I feel it would be a better one than the alternative of no readiness scaling.

Potential removal or phasing out of Pounce and Ravage is very cool, always had such a hard time finding a good keybind for Ravage and it was really pretty unnecessary all this time.

The across the board nerfing is a little strange, almost definitely not consequential but it does make you wonder. If I had to wager a guess I'd imagine they have a DPS target for all specs at a certain gear level and too many specs were above that value, but my guess is as good as anyone's.

Overall happy with these changes and I think they're moving in the right direction :D
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Re: Alpha Build 18297 Datamining

Post by Tinderhoof » Thu May 22, 2014 11:51 am

Zstriker wrote:what a move nerfing AoE in cost of Doc mechanic returns...
Last warning for everyone here. Constructive discussion is welcome, even if you don't like the changes. Angry rants are not acceptable and will be removed.

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Re: Alpha Build 18297 Datamining

Post by hullaballoonatic » Thu May 22, 2014 12:32 pm

can cats even be considered to have talons?
Humans don't really have claws either, but you wouldn't be too surprised to find an unarmed monk attack described as such, right? Just evoking the wrath of nature, I suppose. Or maybe they'll alter the cat model to have hypogriff talons if we take the talent! One can dream...

They must make that talent tier scale with readiness, but you're right that you run into problems with soul of the forest. Potentially blizzard could replace SotF with a different cooldown, but I do like the talent path that new players can take that makes the spec easier (sotf savagery) and wouldn't really want to see that removed. I suppose blizzard and the playerbase could accept that each of the talents in this tier will not scale perfectly equally across the board with every secondary, though of course you run into issues with a secondary applying to one and completely not another. On top of this, Force of Nature feels a bit lackluster, and maybe the entire tier could use some extra attention and possible rework.

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Re: Alpha Build 18297 Datamining

Post by aggixx » Thu May 22, 2014 12:38 pm

If Incarnation is getting some attention then I don't think the tier needs that much of a rework. Soul of the Forest is in a good place and has been since they implemented it at the start of the expansion; its really about as close to compelling as an entirely passive benefit can be.

I agree that Force of the Nature could use a little revisiting though, it's just not really compelling in any way. It really needs some interaction with the rest of our rotation instead of being 110% detached like it is now.
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Satrion
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Re: Alpha Build 18297 Datamining

Post by Satrion » Thu May 22, 2014 12:49 pm

There is no reason Incarnation would have to be affected by readiness. Many classes have CDs that don't line up. Also, if Incarnation and berserk automatically line up you might as well just make the talent Improved Berserk and avoid the need for a macro. They are much better off sticking with readiness not affecting talents and then balancing the talent accordingly.

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Re: Alpha Build 18297 Datamining

Post by Cetlysm » Thu May 22, 2014 12:49 pm

I'm not sure if I don't like this new talent because they first made DoC a very lazy healing talent by removing the damage component, or because they brought it back and removed a pretty good looking aoe talent, OR because asking us to still snapshot bleeds with the new talon thing while there is no more trinket snapshotting, feels like they're just clueless.

I currently like the (Live) DoC, but I don't seem to like its use in WoD once there is no more snapshotting, like whats the point?
Its like having a second savage roar, you need to have all your bleeds covered with savage roar, and also with bloodtalons, its not really hard because there is no reapplying on trinket procs or anything, you just do it, that's it, there's nothing else after that.

Might aswell just make the talent increase the damage of rip and rake by 30%, like they tried to do some patches ago, I don't see the point anymore with no proc snapshotting.

Now, if it was a "minor" talent like in the row 90 DoC that would be different.
Last edited by Cetlysm on Thu May 22, 2014 12:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Alpha Build 18297 Datamining

Post by AsgardFM » Thu May 22, 2014 12:50 pm

Does any class have a talent that scales with Readiness? So far they've been limiting Readiness to affecting 6 abilities per class and adding a talent to that either means you're having 5 affected (if you don't take that talent) or 7. Equally, it could really screw up how useful Readiness is if it will end up causing spells to desync.

I also have to wonder what is happening to Ravage. If Shred gains a 35% boost when used in Stealth (or Incarnation) then why does Ravage still exist? The only difference looks to be +50% crit chance over 80%.

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