Alpha Build 18297 Datamining

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Stenhaldi
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Re: Alpha Build 18297 Datamining

Post by Stenhaldi » Fri May 23, 2014 4:45 pm

Rayen wrote:So I guess we can throw the Shadowmeld+ Ravage discussion under the buss with the removal of Ravage?
Shadowmeld ravage is marginal. The issue is shadowmeld rake with
Improved Rake (a 2-3% overall damage gain)
Glyph of Savage Roar (a 1% or less overall damage gain)

Estimates based loosely on current damage values (with some expectation of a shift toward direct damage) and a 2-minute shadowmeld cooldown.

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Re: Alpha Build 18297 Datamining

Post by hullaballoonatic » Fri May 23, 2014 7:34 pm

I imagine it would be easy enough for blizzard to qualify the bonuses with the prowl buff specifically as to fix anything broken about shadowmeld. Although, given Blizzard's track record with racials and feral-spec-ignorance, I would not be surprised to see it stay in. Pawkets is right, though. Improved rake number is going to get adjusted or completely replaced.

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Re: Alpha Build 18297 Datamining

Post by zagtastic » Fri May 23, 2014 8:09 pm

Stenhaldi wrote:Yeah, it doesn't take you out of target dummy combat either, but it still lets you ravage. Is this not the case on bosses?
i wouldn't worry about it. shadowmeld has no gcd. i can absolutely see ferals macroing it in with rake to almost eliminate the chance that something will knock them out before the rake goes off. hell, i'd be pretty tempted to use that macro in pvp too, if still using both glyphs.

something like
#show rake
/cast [nostealth,combat] Shadowmeld(Racial)
/cast rake

the only real reasons not to do this in raiding, that i can see anyway, is to have the control avoid clipping an existing SR and perhaps having to hard cast an additional one later, or if you weren't timing stuff so that you reliably have the new DoC up when refreshing rake.

edit: forgot about tiger's fury. i guess will probably want this macro along with a plain rake button, just to make sure you don't burn prowl just getting a rake on when you don't have maximum other multipliers up, as well..

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Re: Alpha Build 18297 Datamining

Post by baver » Fri May 23, 2014 11:18 pm

They would not rebalance all racial then make NE this strong tho, not even blizzard would be that stupid :)

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Re: Alpha Build 18297 Datamining

Post by teddabear » Sat May 24, 2014 12:23 am


As far as I know this is the first time we've been able to make a choice on the way we play feral, the level 100 talents are all fundamental changes to the playstyle, which I think is great, and hopefully blizzard puts forth the effort to balance them all relatively well.
I believe that depends on your definition of choice. If Blizzard changes healing in the manner they said they would for WoD, then I expect Mythic Ferals will be forced into DoC for the extra healing. But outside of raids yes you would be free to choose a different playstyle.

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Re: Alpha Build 18297 Datamining

Post by Tinderhoof » Sat May 24, 2014 3:51 am

teddabear wrote:forced
"You keep saying this word. I do not think it means what you think it means...."
I think the only thing in all of MoP anyone was "Forced" to use was the glyph of cat form. Everything was a choice. If you choose to limit your choices because of some Sim that is on you. There is a lot more to being part of a raid then just DPS.

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Re: Alpha Build 18297 Datamining

Post by Kraineth » Sat May 24, 2014 6:22 am

teddabear wrote:

As far as I know this is the first time we've been able to make a choice on the way we play feral, the level 100 talents are all fundamental changes to the playstyle, which I think is great, and hopefully blizzard puts forth the effort to balance them all relatively well.
I believe that depends on your definition of choice. If Blizzard changes healing in the manner they said they would for WoD, then I expect Mythic Ferals will be forced into DoC for the extra healing. But outside of raids yes you would be free to choose a different playstyle.
DoC is part of the level 90 tier which is now all healing utility and no DPS increases, He is referring to the passive SR/Bloody Talons/Moonfire talent choices, which have no effect on healing.

Now as far as the level 90 utility tier goes, I feel DoC isn't going to be mandatory, HotW will still essentially double our healing, on top of removing the mana cost, allowing us to blanket the raid with Rejuvs while also continuing our DPS rotation. DoC, is more of a personal survivability talent, celestalon confirmed that it just casts an extra rejuv/HT on you and and subsequent rejuvs just reset the duration of the one currently on you. NV will also be a pretty nice AG copy, think about being able to pull roughly 120k hps for 30 seconds at a time every 90 seconds. That sounds pretty powerful to me, especially under the new health pool values meaning people won't always be either topped off or dead like they are currently.

I think each talent has it's merits, and NV will be a nice addition to a healing CD rotation.

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Re: Alpha Build 18297 Datamining

Post by hullaballoonatic » Sat May 24, 2014 9:14 am

I think removing pounce and ravage is a step in the right direction. I still think ferals could stand to lose Might of Ursoc, Hibernate (and scare beast please!) and Soothe (possibly merged into Faerie Fire)

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Re: Alpha Build 18297 Datamining

Post by teddabear » Sat May 24, 2014 12:55 pm

Actually I was referring to the DoC/ Bloodtalons combo. I assumed if you take one then you would definitely take the other. I should rephrase my comment accordingly. If DoC/Bloodtalons is the top healing combo and does at least equivalent DPS to the other Level 100 talents, then Ferals will be expected to play that if they want to do Mythic raiding. However I have no idea how the new DoC compares to the new HotW. However I do think Blizzard said they were going to severely curtail heavy raidwide damage in WoD which would appear to limit HotW's usefulness.

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Re: Alpha Build 18297 Datamining

Post by Tinderhoof » Sat May 24, 2014 1:19 pm

teddabear wrote:I should rephrase my comment accordingly. If DoC/Bloodtalons is the top healing combo and does at least equivalent DPS to the other Level 100 talents, then Ferals will be expected to play that if they want to do Mythic raiding.
Mythic Raider here calls bullpuckie. I expect that I am going to use different combo's of level 100 and level 90 talents based on fight mechanics.
teddabear wrote:However I do think Blizzard said they were going to severely curtail heavy raidwide damage in WoD which would appear to limit HotW's usefulness.
They are reducing "Sudden Spike Raid Wide Damage". This is to remove the need for stacked ground based smart heals. If there is constant damage (but not burst) across the raid DoC will not be as useful as HotW or NV will be. DoC will be more helpful if only the tank is taking damage. NV will be great for the rare stack up and bursty damage.

And really when was the last time you had an officer that knew enough about Feral that told you how exactly to spec?

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Re: Alpha Build 18297 Datamining

Post by Cetlysm » Sat May 24, 2014 2:59 pm

Tinderhoof wrote:
And really when was the last time you had an officer that knew enough about Feral that told you how exactly to spec?
They do know HotW is the one that does tranqs and DoC is the one that does not.
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Re: Alpha Build 18297 Datamining

Post by Tinderhoof » Sat May 24, 2014 3:58 pm

Cetlysm wrote:They do know HotW is the one that does tranqs and DoC is the one that does not.
Tinderhoof wrote:There is a lot more to being part of a raid then just DPS.

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Re: Alpha Build 18297 Datamining

Post by hullaballoonatic » Sat May 24, 2014 4:21 pm

teddabear wrote:Ferals will be expected to play that if they want to do Mythic raiding.
Ferals are not gcd locked. You can still use predatory swiftness to heal even without Blood Talons. Strictly in terms of healing merits, each of the level 90 talents is a worthwhile choice depending on the situation. I don't think DoC + Blood Talons is synergy greater than the sum of its parts or outweighs the benefits that HotW would have on some fights, etc.

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Re: Alpha Build 18297 Datamining

Post by Stenhaldi » Sat May 24, 2014 7:03 pm

Dream of Cenarius and Bloodtalons are actually slightly antisynergetic because the latter makes it harder to use heals when they're needed. It's probably not too significant though.

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Re: Alpha Build 18297 Datamining

Post by AsgardFM » Sat May 24, 2014 8:08 pm

teddabear wrote:
And really when was the last time you had an officer that knew enough about Feral that told you how exactly to spec?
My guild's raid leader frequently tells me exactly what to do in raids....mainly because I'm the one leading. It's a nice way around annoying raid leaders.


BackOT:

I would find it a little unusual to have two talent rows linking into each other but you've got to remember that the two talents serve different functions. I've stopped using DoC over the past month or so because it means I can now use those HTs for targeted healing as/when people need it, rather than wanting to save procs to boost my damage. Same logic will apply in Warlords, though the likelihood of being the essential heal decreases with the health changes.

However, I feel the main choices will be between DoC and NV - without Tranq I think that HotW will lose its purpose.

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Re: Alpha Build 18297 Datamining

Post by hullaballoonatic » Sat May 24, 2014 10:59 pm

Stenhaldi wrote:Dream of Cenarius and Bloodtalons are actually slightly antisynergetic because the latter makes it harder to use heals when they're needed. It's probably not too significant though.
Certainly negligible if Blizzard is capable of ensuring the healing model where raid members are not nearly as often topped off, especially tanks.

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Re: Alpha Build 18297 Datamining

Post by teddabear » Sun May 25, 2014 1:11 am

Tinderhoof wrote: And really when was the last time you had an officer that knew enough about Feral that told you how exactly to spec?
All of them in MoP, I didn't play enough Cataclysm to do much raiding. For example on Thok everybody specs for max raid CDs. On Siegecrafter All Hunters must play BM. That's the way it is on my server although Cataclysm pretty much killed it. There are less than a handful of choices if you want to do heroics.

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Re: Alpha Build 18297 Datamining

Post by Tinderhoof » Sun May 25, 2014 3:06 am

teddabear wrote:All of them in MoP, I didn't play enough Cataclysm to do much raiding. For example on Thok everybody specs for max raid CDs. On Siegecrafter All Hunters must play BM. That's the way it is on my server although Cataclysm pretty much killed it. There are less than a handful of choices if you want to do heroics.
You are proving my point. You said everyone specs for best raid cooldowns which means you aren't picking DoC. So even though DoC is the highest damage talent you aren't being forced into it. I do find it unlikely your raid leader was telling you which other talents to pick. If all they asked for was HotW for tranq, why make the jump to "I will be forced to spec 2 talents next time around".

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Re: Alpha Build 18297 Datamining

Post by teddabear » Sun May 25, 2014 6:36 am

I'm saying if healing turns out like Blizzard has said it will then you will be required to spec into the best healing talents, not the best DPS talents. Right now it sounds like DoC will be a much better healing talent in a raid where players are rarely topped off.

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Re: Alpha Build 18297 Datamining

Post by Stenhaldi » Sun May 25, 2014 6:53 am

Luckily, DPS talents aren't competing with healing talents.

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Re: Alpha Build 18297 Datamining

Post by Tinderhoof » Sun May 25, 2014 12:38 pm

teddabear wrote:I'm saying if healing turns out like Blizzard has said it will then you will be required to spec into the best healing talents, not the best DPS talents. Right now it sounds like DoC will be a much better healing talent in a raid where players are rarely topped off.
What is wrong with being asked to provide utility for the raid?

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Re: Alpha Build 18297 Datamining

Post by Satrion » Sun May 25, 2014 12:57 pm

I think Feral is in a good place mechanically right now (Celestalon would seem to agree judging from this: https://twitter.com/Celestalon/statuses ... 6234934273). Most of what people are talking about in this thread is tuning. If they can tune the talents to be pretty close in a patchwerk situation, that let's you take the one that is situationally strong or your preference. It is no easy feat to make a talent that feels like a meaningful choice but has no clearly right answer. That is what the 100 tier (and to a lesser extent the 90 tier) has the potential to be for feral. Tuning will still play a huge role, but I don't think any major mechanics changes are coming or are needed.

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Re: Alpha Build 18297 Datamining

Post by Kraineth » Mon May 26, 2014 5:09 am

teddabear wrote:I'm saying if healing turns out like Blizzard has said it will then you will be required to spec into the best healing talents, not the best DPS talents. Right now it sounds like DoC will be a much better healing talent in a raid where players are rarely topped off.
What makes you think NV/HotW won't been good as well? Both are very good healing CD's, much better for high damage phases where raid CD's are typically called for. I'm not sure why you refer to DoC/Blood Talons as a pair either. Blood Talons has 0 effect on the healing throughput of DoC.

Also worth noting that the level 90 tier has 0 dps value (outside of NV converting offhealing into damage, which can be fixed but is probably too negligible to be worried about) So having to choose the best healing talent has no effect on our dps, which is the biggest issue with the current level 90 tier on live.

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Re: Alpha Build 18297 Datamining

Post by AsgardFM » Mon May 26, 2014 9:10 am

Kraineth wrote:
teddabear wrote:I'm saying if healing turns out like Blizzard has said it will then you will be required to spec into the best healing talents, not the best DPS talents. Right now it sounds like DoC will be a much better healing talent in a raid where players are rarely topped off.
What makes you think NV/HotW won't been good as well? Both are very good healing CD's, much better for high damage phases where raid CD's are typically called for. I'm not sure why you refer to DoC/Blood Talons as a pair either. Blood Talons has 0 effect on the healing throughput of DoC.

Also worth noting that the level 90 tier has 0 dps value (outside of NV converting offhealing into damage, which can be fixed but is probably too negligible to be worried about) So having to choose the best healing talent has no effect on our dps, which is the biggest issue with the current level 90 tier on live.
Remember that we're losing Tranquillity in Warlords, it becomes Resto only. While HotW will allow for HT and Rejuv spam for 45 seconds...that would involve 45 seconds of 0 damage output. I can't see that being considered a good option for any spec as an extra healing cooldown (except the Resto version which increases healing done by 25%)

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Re: Alpha Build 18297 Datamining

Post by Kraineth » Mon May 26, 2014 5:54 pm

AsgardFM wrote: Remember that we're losing Tranquillity in Warlords, it becomes Resto only. While HotW will allow for HT and Rejuv spam for 45 seconds...that would involve 45 seconds of 0 damage output. I can't see that being considered a good option for any spec as an extra healing cooldown (except the Resto version which increases healing done by 25%)
No it won't, one of our leveling perks in WoD is being able to cast Rejuv in cat form, Feral has enough free GCD's in the rotation to fill in a lot of Rejuvs during HotW.

I've also blanket rejuv'ed on progression quite often the expansion, how is it a bad choice if it was what keeps people from dying?

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