Alpha Build 18297 Datamining

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Tinderhoof
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Re: Alpha Build 18297 Datamining

Post by Tinderhoof » Mon May 26, 2014 10:33 pm

The second half of HotW is making those Rejuv's free. They are still going to cost mana outside of that cooldown. Using DoC we can toss out some rejuv's but it won't be many before going OOM.

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Re: Alpha Build 18297 Datamining

Post by Stenhaldi » Mon May 26, 2014 11:05 pm

Quick note on our mana limitations.

Between passive regen (2%/5 sec if it's similar to live) and leader of the pack (8% per 8-9 seconds at lower crit rates), we'll be able to cast a rejuvenation (currently 10.5% mana) every ~8 seconds in the steady state, with the possibility of chaining up to 11-12 from a full mana bar.

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Re: Alpha Build 18297 Datamining

Post by teddabear » Tue May 27, 2014 7:59 am

Kraineth wrote:Feral has enough free GCD's in the rotation to fill in a lot of Rejuvs during HotW.

I've seen this said a few times. I have very few free GCD's as Feral. Bear sure, but Feral not many at all. For DoC you wouldn't need many, but trying to DPS and spam Rejuv would not work at all.


It seems to me the people that take Savagery would probably take NV. For everybody else it will be DoC. I can't envision any scenario where HotW is a good choice. You have to stop DPS. It is a 6 minute cooldown, and it is very unlikely you would need to heal for 45 seconds. With DoC you essentially get a permanent rejuvenation on yourself and 1 other, probably the tank.

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Re: Alpha Build 18297 Datamining

Post by Athen » Tue May 27, 2014 9:22 am

teddabear wrote: I can't envision any scenario where HotW is a good choice.
But I can. Hotw is the only choice that provides some offspecc utility besides healing. You can start spamming hurrican/wrath or offtank for 45 sec. Two of our firstkills ended with me tanking the last seconds after our Tank died. And while doing so you can still cast rejuvs if neccesary. Hotw is maybe not the best choice from a pure Hps perspective but i believe we will find some situations where it will be usefull.

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Re: Alpha Build 18297 Datamining

Post by Whitepaw » Tue May 27, 2014 9:43 am

Stenhaldi wrote:Quick note on our mana limitations.

Between passive regen (2%/5 sec if it's similar to live) and leader of the pack (8% per 8-9 seconds at lower crit rates), we'll be able to cast a rejuvenation (currently 10.5% mana) every ~8 seconds in the steady state, with the possibility of chaining up to 11-12 from a full mana bar.
Forgive my ignorance, but I thought that Rejuv would be castable in cat form - and thereby with no mana cost?

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Re: Alpha Build 18297 Datamining

Post by aggixx » Tue May 27, 2014 9:56 am

Whitepaw wrote:
Stenhaldi wrote:Quick note on our mana limitations.

Between passive regen (2%/5 sec if it's similar to live) and leader of the pack (8% per 8-9 seconds at lower crit rates), we'll be able to cast a rejuvenation (currently 10.5% mana) every ~8 seconds in the steady state, with the possibility of chaining up to 11-12 from a full mana bar.
Forgive my ignorance, but I thought that Rejuv would be castable in cat form - and thereby with no mana cost?
No, spells in Cat Form can cost mana. Just because the default UI doesn't show a mana bar doesn't mean its not there or not usable. It just happens to be that the only ways we've had to cast spells in form have always also made the spell free, but that's not the case with the Rejuvenation perk.
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Re: Alpha Build 18297 Datamining

Post by AsgardFM » Tue May 27, 2014 12:24 pm

No doubt it will give us the ability to cast stronger Rejuvs (and HTs for that matter) during the 45 sec window but blanket rejuv/HTing is still a total loss of damage output (vs NG where we can still carry out a rotation as normal). And yes, you can continue to DPS while throwing stronger heals out as Predatory Swiftness procs / GCD's allow but, personally, I feel that a passive 20% boost from DoC will outweigh that in most situations.
My point was not to say that HotW will be unable to provide a healing cooldown, just that I feel its effectiveness will be limited against todays HotW options.
As a slight aside, has there been news on weapon switching? Digging out a healing staff for HotW duration is something I would really like to see vanish.

Admittedly,the extra 'panic tank' button will make up for some of my perceived downsides but my post was more focused on the healing aspect of that tier.

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Re: Alpha Build 18297 Datamining

Post by teddabear » Tue May 27, 2014 3:20 pm

Athen wrote:
teddabear wrote: I can't envision any scenario where HotW is a good choice.
But I can. Hotw is the only choice that provides some offspecc utility besides healing. You can start spamming hurrican/wrath or offtank for 45 sec. Two of our firstkills ended with me tanking the last seconds after our Tank died. And while doing so you can still cast rejuvs if neccesary. Hotw is maybe not the best choice from a pure Hps perspective but i believe we will find some situations where it will be usefull.
Blizzard purposely nerfed HotW + Wrath so its unlikely that it will be a DPS gain in WoD. I can't remember the last time I used Hurricane on something other than trash. My experience with HotW tanking is it's not much better than Might of Ursoc + SI. I can't recall any occasions in MoP where you needed more than 20 seconds of healing, usually less. We do know the heavy damage phases in WoD will be less severe we just don't know the degree. If it was a 2 minute cooldown and lasted 15 seconds it might have some uses but giving up 12.5% of your DPS is a pretty stiff penalty.
Last edited by teddabear on Wed May 28, 2014 9:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Alpha Build 18297 Datamining

Post by Stenhaldi » Tue May 27, 2014 3:53 pm

aggixx wrote:No, spells in Cat Form can cost mana.
(Try Cenarion Ward for an example of this.)

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Re: Alpha Build 18297 Datamining

Post by Rayen » Tue May 27, 2014 10:47 pm

Very interesting...

Will night elves be able to make use of the Rake perc of boosted damage in stealth by using Shadow Meld while in combat?
Yes. It's still based on being 'in stealth', not Prowl specifically. (Celestalon)
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Re: Alpha Build 18297 Datamining

Post by Tinderhoof » Tue May 27, 2014 11:06 pm

As my question to Celestalon was exactly that one would tend to think his answer was "yes". Will it stay that way for launch? Who knows.

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Re: Alpha Build 18297 Datamining

Post by musashibo » Wed May 28, 2014 5:51 pm

Satrion wrote:
5. Talent Bloodtalons (was Bloody Thrash) Casting Healing Touch causes your next two melee abilities to deal 30% additional damage. Druid - LvL 0 Talent.

I saved what will likely be the most controversial change for last. It looks like they are bringing back the damage functionality of DoC and scrapping the rake spreading. I for one am super excited for this as I really enjoyed what DoC did for the rotation this expansion. I know there are many on this site and other places that would disagree with me. It leaves us still a bit lacking in the cleave department, but I think the Combo Point change will actually make a pretty big difference there by itself.
This makes me really happy. I would've preferred it to replace the passive SR talent as I was also looking forward to Thrashrake spam for fights that favored cleaving over single target... but I'm just thrilled DoC isn't being removed entirely from the game.

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Re: Alpha Build 18297 Datamining

Post by Kraineth » Wed May 28, 2014 7:13 pm

teddabear wrote:
Kraineth wrote:Feral has enough free GCD's in the rotation to fill in a lot of Rejuvs during HotW.

I've seen this said a few times. I have very few free GCD's as Feral. Bear sure, but Feral not many at all. For DoC you wouldn't need many, but trying to DPS and spam Rejuv would not work at all.


It seems to me the people that take Savagery would probably take NV. For everybody else it will be DoC. I can't envision any scenario where HotW is a good choice. You have to stop DPS. It is a 6 minute cooldown, and it is very unlikely you would need to heal for 45 seconds. With DoC you essentially get a permanent rejuvenation on yourself and 1 other, probably the tank.
You're assuming all of this under the old healing model, we have no idea how raid encounters will function with the new model. We could very well have fights like Thok with constant raidwide damage that kills people slowly if there aren't enough heals instead of killing people in just 2 casts. There will certainly be fights where HotW has a use, whether it be the healing or tanking benefit.

Also, why would savagery users take NV more often than anyone? If anything Bloody Talons users will be the most likely to use NV because you can't hold onto your free HT's for spot healing with DoC unless you want to lose DPS.

As far as free GCD's, we have tons, more than any other dps spec probably, even in 580+ gear there is a lot of waiting around for energy, there will be even more during the early WoD tiers, especially if FoN/Incarnation are used instead of SotF.

Also not sure how you think bear has more free GCD's than cat, bear is GCD capped if you are doing the proper rotation.....


--EDIT--
teddabear wrote: If it was a 2 minute cooldown and lasted 15 seconds it might have some uses but giving up 12.5% of your DPS is a pretty stiff penalty.
Healing for 15 seconds every 2 minutes is not 12.5% dps loss, it is 12.5% of your time sure, but bleeds still tick, CD's/trinkets still reset.

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Re: Alpha Build 18297 Datamining

Post by teddabear » Thu May 29, 2014 1:17 pm

Kraineth wrote: Also, why would savagery users take NV more often than anyone? If anything Bloody Talons users will be the most likely to use NV because you can't hold onto your free HT's for spot healing with DoC unless you want to lose DPS.
Because both are simpler but I don't disagree that Bloody Talons users may take NV. Especially since right now I don't see anybody taking HotW.
Kraineth wrote: Healing for 15 seconds every 2 minutes is not 12.5% dps loss, it is 12.5% of your time sure, but bleeds still tick, CD's/trinkets still reset.
Yes 12.5% was just a guesstimate. It may be less, but it may be more if your trinkets proc. Especially an ICD trinket.

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Re: Alpha Build 18297 Datamining

Post by Tinderhoof » Thu May 29, 2014 1:27 pm

I am failing to see the issue here. What is more important? The boss dying, or you not losing some small % of your damage? If you down a progression boss and you saved the raid who the hell cares if you lost 12% damage output during that time YOU WERE SAVING THE RAID?

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Re: Alpha Build 18297 Datamining

Post by teddabear » Fri May 30, 2014 5:36 pm

Compared to other Raid CDs that take 1 GCD it seems a little harsh.

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Re: Alpha Build 18297 Datamining

Post by Kraineth » Fri May 30, 2014 5:50 pm

teddabear wrote:Compared to other Raid CDs that take 1 GCD it seems a little harsh.
HotW is more flexible than other raid utility though.

I'm not saying its way better and will always be taken, since tranq is gone it is a bit less powerful.

But we have NV for burst HPS and DoC for personal healing/constant spot healing. It is okay for HotW to be a bit awkward, almost all of our talent tiers today have one that is used in wierd circumstances/only pvp. But almost all of them have helped me kill a boss in this expansion, and that is all that matters.

Fights like Tsulong/Dreamwalker (ICC) are great examples of good uses of HotW even without tranq. Or 2 tanking HGarrosh with a monk kiting adds, using HotW to tank for a small time during P3 to prevent the huge explosions from 1 tanking that phase.

HotW is bound to have a use, and MaxDps is not the only goal to aim for in a raid.

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Re: Alpha Build 18297 Datamining

Post by musashibo » Fri May 30, 2014 7:25 pm

If you use lvl100 DoC (cant remember new name), I have a hard time seeing lvl90 DoC being very useful.
When I look at logs, I see most ferals currently having 80% or more overhealing on HT casts. Many in the 90% range. Even using a mouseover macro and trying to be effective, best I can do is ~55% overhealing.
The nature of the rotation generally means you want to cast HT at a very specific moment in time. Even if I expect free gcds coming up... if I'm sitting on a PS proc with 5 CPs (or anticipate refreshing SR at less CPs) I'm usually casting HT that moment... and then waiting. DoC dmg buff lasts 30s so I'm never worried about it falling off unused. If an agility or OOC proc happens, I don't want to be waiting a gcd while casting HT. There is very little benefit to +20% heal to a spell that's almost always overhealing already. That just leaves the Rejuv effect which will probably be significantly overhealing as a HoT as well.
I'm still not thrilled with the gimicky nature of HotW either... yes, it could be used to save the raid... but in some way that would seem to suggest other people aren't pulling their weight ? If HotW had shorter cd / duration, but it's one-time-use nature and long duration lends it to gimmickry and inflexibility imo.
Maybe I'm reading NV wrong, but if we save our mana to cast Rejuv during every free gcd in that 30s window... doesn't it do some damage? Probably a pitiful amount of damage, but still free damage from no other talent in that tier and as a decent raid cd that more or less becomes a weaker/smaller form of Tranq that we don't have to weapon swap or channel... and with 33% uptime (30s duration, 1.5m cd ? Yes please.)

I've said before that I use NV on Thok stack phases ... and I'm really pleased with its performance there. No idea how the numbers will match up to WoD, but on first impressions it seems the most natural choice to me.

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Re: Alpha Build 18297 Datamining

Post by Kraineth » Fri May 30, 2014 11:49 pm

musashibo wrote:There is very little benefit to +20% heal to a spell that's almost always overhealing already. That just leaves the Rejuv effect which will probably be significantly overhealing as a HoT as well.
I see a lot of people making these assumptions, still ignoring the fact that player HP is doubled and healing is not. Blizzard intends for players to not always be either topped off or at 20%, this goes a long way to make offhealing very meaningful, which is a good boost to DoC.

musashibo wrote:I'm still not thrilled with the gimicky nature of HotW either... yes, it could be used to save the raid... but in some way that would seem to suggest other people aren't pulling their weight ? If HotW had shorter cd / duration, but it's one-time-use nature and long duration lends it to gimmickry and inflexibility imo.
Maybe I'm reading NV wrong, but if we save our mana to cast Rejuv during every free gcd in that 30s window... doesn't it do some damage? Probably a pitiful amount of damage, but still free damage from no other talent in that tier and as a decent raid cd that more or less becomes a weaker/smaller form of Tranq that we don't have to weapon swap or channel... and with 33% uptime (30s duration, 1.5m cd ? Yes please.)
NV already fills the short duration smart heal CD role and DoC already fills the constant hps role, what is wrong with an ability with a long CD that can have a ton of uses, some very integral to an entire strat for a boss kill.

NV is very likely to lose it's healing-->damage conversion, at least for feral. The talent tier is meant to be dps neutral, and this is an outlier that I intend to make sure gets fixed.

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Re: Alpha Build 18297 Datamining

Post by teddabear » Sat May 31, 2014 5:52 am

Kraineth wrote:
teddabear wrote:Compared to other Raid CDs that take 1 GCD it seems a little harsh.
HotW is more flexible than other raid utility though.

I'm not saying its way better and will always be taken, since tranq is gone it is a bit less powerful.

But we have NV for burst HPS and DoC for personal healing/constant spot healing. It is okay for HotW to be a bit awkward, almost all of our talent tiers today have one that is used in wierd circumstances/only pvp. But almost all of them have helped me kill a boss in this expansion, and that is all that matters.

Fights like Tsulong/Dreamwalker (ICC) are great examples of good uses of HotW even without tranq. Or 2 tanking HGarrosh with a monk kiting adds, using HotW to tank for a small time during P3 to prevent the huge explosions from 1 tanking that phase.

HotW is bound to have a use, and MaxDps is not the only goal to aim for in a raid.


You consider it a borderline talent, I consider it a useless talent. Imo it is so bad I doubt many posters here would take it if it was a 2 minute coooldown and lasted 90 seconds.

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Re: Alpha Build 18297 Datamining

Post by Elfreako » Mon Jun 09, 2014 3:20 pm

What's up everyone so I was thinking. If anyone has thought and what those thoughts would be about taking lunar inspiration and stacking haste for extra ticks would there could there be any benefits?

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Re: Alpha Build 18297 Datamining

Post by Tinderhoof » Mon Jun 09, 2014 4:07 pm

Just remember, with Reforging gone and Gem slots being very limited there won't be an easy way to "stack" anything anymore. I do hope it is going to end up making Haste more desirable if we end up getting a piece with Haste on it.

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Re: Alpha Build 18297 Datamining

Post by Elfreako » Mon Jun 09, 2014 5:41 pm

@ tinder ya I feel ya on the gear thing I'm pretty pumped to see what the gear is going to offer and how it will change things for us. I also know this isn't the post to talked about this but I was hoping to pick your brain about your gems in your current setup?

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Re: Alpha Build 18297 Datamining

Post by aggixx » Tue Jun 10, 2014 1:12 am

Moonfire via Lunar Inspiration (at least at the moment) does very little damage. With the addition of Bloodtalons I expect them to tune it and Savagery up a bit so they can compete, but even then its not going to be doing a ton of damage. Yeah, it will increase haste's value a little bit (and lower mastery's) when you take it but the other talents will have their minor impacts as well.
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Re: Alpha Build 18297 Datamining

Post by Jimbizzle » Wed Jun 11, 2014 11:02 am

Is snapshotting still going to be a thing if DoC isn't going anywhere? i.e. big rip with trinket procs and execute mode keeping up the big rip for the whole execute phase

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