Best opener for multi-target fight?

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istanu
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Best opener for multi-target fight?

Post by istanu » Fri Jun 06, 2014 2:27 am

Like Fallen Protectors you have 3 targets and Dark Shamans you have 4.
I am usting Haromm's Talisman and RoRe. So in the beginning, during the precious 10 seconds of trinkets uptime, what is the best execution sequence to maximize DPS?

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raffy
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Re: Best opener for multi-target fight?

Post by raffy » Fri Jun 06, 2014 4:22 am

HotW/FoN
1. Melee and/or Thrash
2. (all procs are now up)
3. 3x Treants
4. if Thrash'd above w/o procs, Thrash again
5. Rake everything (TF and Berserk during this)
6. Thrash again (before procs fade)

You can test this with Catus: use the Cleave encounter, "2" Adds (for 1+2=3 targets), [x] At Start, Level: +3
-- Use "Simulator: Combat Log" to see what abilities it's using.
-- Use "Simulator: Distribution" to see the damage breakdown.

Edit: oops, the min cleave size setting is busted, and seems to be stuck at 3 regardless of the interface setting.

Edit: with that setting fixed, it even appears that vs. 2 targets, 100% uptime on Thrash and Rake with terrible Rip uptime beats the single-target rotation (with Thrash cleave) by a large margin (3-4%+) for various combat times.

Edit: If you do the normal rotation but mix in some off-target Rakes, they're closer. But at 3+, maintaining Rip isn't worth it. Unfortunately, the simulator doesn't have an action list for dual BitW Rip maintenance nor is it using Soul Swap/Redirect (it's coded but I never wrote the action list to utilize it.) However, at current item levels, not much time is spent in BitW phase.

Edit: Soul Swap kind of screws up my analysis :\ This requires some more thought.

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Stenhaldi
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Re: Best opener for multi-target fight?

Post by Stenhaldi » Fri Jun 06, 2014 4:50 am

Yeah I was going to mention soul swap. In the opener with 4pc and soul swap you can apply -- if you don't get too unlucky with crits -- two rips, two rakes, and a thrash inside the opening trinket procs. Rake to 5 CP, rip (4pc refunds 3 CP), mangle back to 5 CP (to extend the rip a bit), soul swap, rip, rake. Also insert thrash somewhere (preferably early on).

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Cetlysm
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Re: Best opener for multi-target fight?

Post by Cetlysm » Fri Jun 06, 2014 11:14 am

Have anyone ever had soulswap rip not extend correctly, or not extend at all when there was a rip already on the target you swaped to?
I thought rip extensions were global.
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Paloro
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Re: Best opener for multi-target fight?

Post by Paloro » Fri Jun 06, 2014 1:56 pm

Cetlysm wrote:Have anyone ever had soulswap rip not extend correctly, or not extend at all when there was a rip already on the target you swaped to?
I thought rip extensions were global.
Rip extensions aren't locked to the individual Rip.

For instance you apply Rip to target 1 and extend it 3 times. After getting 5 cp, you soul swap the first Rip that has already been extending to target 2 and then re-apply a Rip to target 1.
Now the extensions for the new Rip can be put on either target 1 or 2, even though target 2 had its Rip extended thrice.
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Untamable
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Re: Best opener for multi-target fight?

Post by Untamable » Fri Jun 06, 2014 3:23 pm

so is HoTW better in fights like protectors or shamans?

Also, since you mentioned FoN, do they snapshot or are they dynamic? I read different things in different places and I'm not sure anymore
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Tinderhoof
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Re: Best opener for multi-target fight?

Post by Tinderhoof » Fri Jun 06, 2014 4:20 pm

The Rake the tree's apply as soon as they are summoned is snapshotted. The physical swings they do for the duration of their summon are dynamic.

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raffy
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Re: Best opener for multi-target fight?

Post by raffy » Fri Jun 06, 2014 4:40 pm

@Untamable, it depends on the question: are we trying to maximize the damage we can do in the first 10-seconds (at the expense of the rest of the fight) or just maximize our overall damage by correctly performing when more targets are around?

Thrash and Rake cleave with Rune + Yellow gems dominates for multiple targets. I say HotW/FoN because 100% Thrash uptime will reduce the number of finishers and Rake cleaving will increase the number of lost combo points (which reduces DoC charges and SotF benefit.) I simulated a bunch of these setups for various combat times.

Soul Swap screws everything up because two triple-extended uber Rips during the first 10sec is extremely strong (and somewhat complex.) But the value of this decreases with more targets available (because your first TF is wasted.) I was mainly comparing doing the single-target rotation and getting Thrash ticks on two targets vs. near-100% Thrash/Rake uptime on both targets with only Swipe as generator and very reduced Rip (and finisher) use.

Additionally, combat duration plays a huge role in this decision because longer fights favor BitW maintenance. With multiple targets available, keeping two ridiculous Rips is definitely doable (especially with Soul Swap.)

Edit: w/r/t Treant snapshotting, the fact that the Rake snapshots but the swings live-update is the logic behind using FoN at the end of your Rune proc (assuming no other procs fall off as well) since you get a strong Treant Rake + normal melee swings that get Crit/Haste benefit (Mastery doesn't contribute to swing damage.)

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Untamable
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Re: Best opener for multi-target fight?

Post by Untamable » Fri Jun 06, 2014 6:19 pm

Thank you guys for answering, and your answers do make sense.

I think I will try using FoN/HoTW this week and see the results.

Take care!
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Cetlysm
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Re: Best opener for multi-target fight?

Post by Cetlysm » Sat Jun 07, 2014 1:10 am

I was trying advance opener for Fallen Protectors without soulswap tonight, was pretty much:
Regular advance opener, HT, rake main target, rake second target, rake third target, SR at 4 cp, HT, rake last target again now with DoC and thrash also with DoC.

http://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/HAp ... Bh#fight=1
worked ok for having no swap
if I were to do a regular opener I don't think I could get so many stuff out DoC buffed.
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Untamable
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Re: Best opener for multi-target fight?

Post by Untamable » Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:17 pm

Cetlysm wrote:I was trying advance opener for Fallen Protectors without soulswap tonight, was pretty much:
Regular advance opener, HT, rake main target, rake second target, rake third target, SR at 4 cp, HT, rake last target again now with DoC and thrash also with DoC.

http://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/HAp ... Bh#fight=1
worked ok for having no swap
if I were to do a regular opener I don't think I could get so many stuff out DoC buffed.
How did you go from a rake to a 4 cp SR? did you mean you were mangling in between?

And did you manage to do all of that during the trinkets proc?
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Cetlysm
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Re: Best opener for multi-target fight?

Post by Cetlysm » Sat Jun 07, 2014 8:27 pm

Well after the initial rip, I HT, I do 1 rake to the first 2 targets each then rake twice on the last one, or maybe it was a 3SR I honestly don't remember, and apply the a new rake now with DoC buff and a thrash for all targets both with DoC, I'd do thrash first because at this point trinkets are on the decimals.

But I don't think this opener is good if you have soul swap, you can easily get 2 rips out, 1 thrash and maybe 0-2 rakes depending on how many bleeds you buff with DoC with swap.
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Untamable
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Re: Best opener for multi-target fight?

Post by Untamable » Sat Jun 07, 2014 9:55 pm

ahh I see. Thank you for clarifying that.

I also happened to not have soul swap this week although it was 25 man xD. I guess we need more locks!
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Athen
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Re: Best opener for multi-target fight?

Post by Athen » Sun Jun 08, 2014 8:47 am

Our trinkets trigger after our first hit. So we got 11 global cooldowns to get two buffed rips. the chance to get 5cp after 3 rakes equals : 3 * critchance^2 * (1-critchance) + critchance^3

Assuming our critchance is 51% we have a chance to get 5cps with only 3 rakes is 3*0,51^2*0,49+0,51^3 = 0,515.
And to get at least 4 cp with the same critchance (that means at least one hit strikes criticaly) is (1-0,49^3)=0,88.

So we start with 3 rakes one trash and one rip ( with tf before ) 5 gcd's to get our first rip with 4-5 cp. We get 3 cp after this rip due to our 4pc bonus. We have no soul swap so we will savage roar to extend its duration or just waste them and swap to our next target. Here again 3 rakes and one rip. Depending on if we wastes our 3 cp on our last target we have one global left to trash again.
I know this execution means we will have to put rip sometimes with only 4cp's but i think a 4cp rip is better than one extra rake on the third target.

And there is another option but i am not sure if it will work. I got this 2-3 times on Protectors but i am not sure if it was a bug or i was just to confused: If you mouseover your first rip while you already targetswapped to your second target, your 4pc will get you 3 cp on that target.

If i am wrong with something tell me but i usually get 2 buffed rips up at protectors, shamans and Klaxxi (our tactic wants to let the adds face rik'kal first) and i never be able to use soulswap.

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Cetlysm
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Re: Best opener for multi-target fight?

Post by Cetlysm » Sun Jun 08, 2014 1:13 pm

I've seen stuff like that happen, never figured how it happened, maybe I was also not paying attention, but when it did happen it was rare as hell, like 0cp roar PS proc right on 1 sec left on countdown rare, which by the way is a goddamn godsend specially if it happens on protectors or shamans.
Easy 2 DoC buffed rips and 2 rakes plus thrash without breaking a sweat.
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