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Alpheus
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Re: Alpha Testing

Post by Alpheus » Sat Jul 12, 2014 2:16 pm

Incarnation + Shred/Rake seems to be bugged at the moment, awarding 5CPs every time so you can just shred -> finisher repeatedly until it runs out. Also not sure if this was server-related but when I had incarnation up the 5CP's seemed to have a 2-3sec delay before they appeared. Might just be the broken UI though. This seems to be caused by Glyph of Savage Roar.

Edit: I was expecting Glyph of rake to extend the range of rake when Incarnation is active but this doesn't seem to be the case. Not sure whether this is a bug or not.
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Re: Alpha Testing

Post by Alpheus » Sat Jul 12, 2014 6:21 pm

raffy wrote:The prior 2pc bonus was weak, whereas this bonus depends on how much we can abuse it. Rake/Rip/Thrash on one target give 3/3 + 3/2 + 3/3 = 3.5 energy/sec. Add in Bear Thrash and a few more targets and it's way overpowered. Venom Zest (L100 Rogue) caps out at 3 targets. Maybe there's an ICD.
Edit: misread Rogue talent
Cat thrash doesn't work for guardians for generating rage on tick. It will likely not work the other way around for energy (although you never know, we've had these kinds of fuckups before).
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Re: Alpha Testing

Post by Lynxx » Sat Jul 12, 2014 10:12 pm

Anyone else think this may be a bit busted or am I reading it wrong. Especially for guardian druids. Any ideas why they would give barkskin back to all except feral? I've not been lucky enough to get into beta yet so I dont know how solid our survivability is feeling.

Feral & Guardian
Survival Instincts Reduces all damage taken by 70% for 12 sec. Max 2 charges. Instant. 12 sec cooldown. Druid - Feral & Guardian Spec. Instant. 12 sec cooldown.

Guardian, Balance, Restoration
Barkskin The Druid's skin becomes as tough as bark, reducing all damage taken by 20% for 12 sec. Usable while stunned, frozen, incapacitated, feared, or asleep, and in all forms. Druid - Guardian Balance, Restoration Spec. Instant. 30 sec cooldown.
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Re: Alpha Testing

Post by Monopedia » Sun Jul 13, 2014 5:04 am

Lynxx wrote:Anyone else think this may be a bit busted or am I reading it wrong. Especially for guardian druids. Any ideas why they would give barkskin back to all except feral? I've not been lucky enough to get into beta yet so I dont know how solid our survivability is feeling.

Feral & Guardian
Survival Instincts Reduces all damage taken by 70% for 12 sec. Max 2 charges. Instant. 12 sec cooldown. Druid - Feral & Guardian Spec. Instant. 12 sec cooldown.

Guardian, Balance, Restoration
Barkskin The Druid's skin becomes as tough as bark, reducing all damage taken by 20% for 12 sec. Usable while stunned, frozen, incapacitated, feared, or asleep, and in all forms. Druid - Guardian Balance, Restoration Spec. Instant. 30 sec cooldown.
I don't PvP so my opinions rarely take in PvP in to account.

Balance and Resto gained Barkskin but lost Survival Instincts
The idea is that Balance and Resto have Barkskin the low reduction with the short cooldown while Feral has the large reduction with the longer cooldown. I'm assuming Barkskin is still the baseline 30 second cooldown as it says in the patch notes, not just for guardian now. Guardian obviously has both for obviously obvious reasons.

Survival Instincts is a 70% reduction for 12 seconds on a 12 second cooldown between charge uses with a 2 minute recharge time. It has 2 charges meaning back to back use (total of 24 seconds) but if used back to back you must wait for the first charge to recharge before the 2nd will start its 2 minute recharge timer. If you are not in beta and wondering how it works, it should work just like Deterrence does for hunters on live right now.

Glyph of Survival Instincts reduces the cooldown by 40 seconds but the duration to 6 seconds. There is currently a bug (maybe even intended) that causes the glyph to not allow back to back use as it does not reduce the 12 second cooldown between charge uses. This means there is a 6 second "wait" before being able to use your second charge. The 40 sec reduction to cooldown is flat out bugged currently and does not change the recharge time or the cooldown.

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Re: Alpha Testing

Post by aggixx » Sun Jul 13, 2014 7:26 pm

Alpheus wrote:Incarnation + Shred/Rake seems to be bugged at the moment, awarding 5CPs every time so you can just shred -> finisher repeatedly until it runs out. Also not sure if this was server-related but when I had incarnation up the 5CP's seemed to have a 2-3sec delay before they appeared. Might just be the broken UI though. This seems to be caused by Glyph of Savage Roar.
Its Glyph of Savage Roar, nothing else. When you trigger it it grants you 5 CP and then casts SR; when you trigger it repeatedly the SR cast starts failing because of duration, so you start getting 5 CP every time you cast Rake or Shred. There's really not much point in using the glyph until they fix it at least a little.
Alpheus wrote:Edit: I was expecting Glyph of rake to extend the range of rake when Incarnation is active but this doesn't seem to be the case. Not sure whether this is a bug or not.
It might be intended for it to, but going strictly from the wording its not a bug. The glyph clearly states it only takes effect when Prowl is active, and Incarnation only grants stealth, not Prowl.
Alpheus wrote:Cat thrash doesn't work for guardians for generating rage on tick. It will likely not work the other way around for energy (although you never know, we've had these kinds of fuckups before).
Those are completely different animals so I wouldn't count on it either way. Cat Thrash and Bear Thrash are distinctly different spells, they just have the same "parent" spell that is used to manage keybinding and casting the right spell in the right form. The rage on tick effect is exclusive to the bear spell so it can't really effect the cat spell unless they fucked things up pretty seriously.
Lynxx wrote:Anyone else think this may be a bit busted or am I reading it wrong. Especially for guardian druids. Any ideas why they would give barkskin back to all except feral? I've not been lucky enough to get into beta yet so I dont know how solid our survivability is feeling.
Pretty sure its intended. They want guardian to have cooldowns, since its a tank spec, so of course its getting the ability to use both. For every other spec, they only want them to have 1 personal CD; it makes sense to give Feral SI since it's always been a Feral exclusive spell, and then give Barkskin to Resto and Balance. It just seems awkward in the meantime because right at this moment it comes across as "hey they gave everybody but feral barkskin back!", but realize that Balance and Resto lost SI to make the change (which is arguably the superior defensive CD, for now at least).
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Re: Alpha Testing

Post by Lynxx » Mon Jul 14, 2014 5:41 am

Ok so the 2 min internal cooldown just isn't mentioned in the tool tip then for SI. Yeah I can see why barkskin is given to those three, perhaps I am just still a bit of a sad panda (ha!) About losing barkskin. Such an iconic spell, I know I will be mashing that keybind for a bit before I realize it's gone.
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Re: Alpha Testing

Post by hullaballoonatic » Mon Jul 14, 2014 11:14 am

Originally I was very disappointed when considering that Combo Points would now be stacking on the player instead of the target, because I figured this was abandoning the most defining limitation of the system, and would have rather seen the mechanics the player can utilize to mitigate it improved. This sort-of blinded me to the important implications for better gameplay that the new take on combo points implies: mostly that of an increased lateral thought process. That is to say, whereas originally combo points by their very nature previously supported a very tunnelvisiony approach, now with them easily transferable that's eliminated. Of course, there was a significant amount of forethought utilized by very good feral players in how they were going to overcome the loss of combo points when situations necessitated target switching, the new system encourages the player to be constantly aware of other targets, and opening the possibility of rolling our complex finishers on multiple targets is not making the game easier for us, but expanding the depth of the spec rather significantly.

Pvp might be the area in which this is most important. The ability to CC other targets through Maim is hard to oversell. Not only does this mean everything stated above but in the control environment as opposed to merely the damage one (which also is immensely useful in pressuring healers in pvp), but has a very neat effect on the value of some talents, namely increasing the value of feral charge in order to accommodate maim's short range, but also, more importantly, maybe toppling the king of the level 75 talent tier. And lastly, it gives invigorated purpose to the inherent mobility of cats.

The second best criticism I originally had for this change in how Combo Points functioned was their increased similarity to other resource systems like rage, holy power, and chi; however, I neglected to consider perhaps the most important distinction between these systems, which is not how they fundamentally function on their own, but instead the abilities they allow the player to use. Combo Point finishers are simply much more versatile and powerful. This shouldn't mean that allowing rogues and furls to wield these abilities with the same flexibility as warriors, monks, and paladins is overpowered, but instead it's important to realize the immense impact it has on how we play these specs, and the shifting of the focus when doing so. In MoP, indisputably, the most powerful utility of the feral druid was being the king of single target dps; stick the feral on anything that needs to die fast, that doesn't die too fast. In WoD, expect this to be completely shifted.

That all is to say that while on the surface, the loss of things like snapshotting might appear to be a dramatic caving-in of the proudly-touted roof of this spec may be preventing you from noticing an equal obliteration of its floor.

Also important to note: the natural downtime in our spec's rotation has never been better defined now that instant cast healing from the spec has never been more powerful. Rejuv from cat form and better healing touches expands the player's focus not only to more enemies in the case of combo points, but to his entire raid.

There are two more ideas I'd like to bring forth. The first is a short argument for putting Entangling Roots back into Predatory swiftness. Let's just bullet point this one (I think I'm getting a bit wordy):
  • Retains the formerly most-laterally-thinking ability we had in expansions prior to WoD.
  • Eliminates the lackluster and overly-complex qualities into Predatory Swiftness that its limitation in the next expansion to merely healing touch embeds.
  • Perhaps a weak enough CC that it justifies its instant cast quality despite the game-wide reduction in these.
Finally, a suggestion. Instead of Cyclone, Ferals would use Hibernate. Hibernate would have a reduced range (to maintain the importance of the druid's spacial awareness and continue the emphasis on cat-mobility that cyclone does), but would work on all living targets, and it would not be tied to predatory swiftness. This would bring perhaps some additional identity to the spec, but more importantly support a distinct counter to the combo point change. Although ferals can now spread bleeds and multidot like never before, it would limit the number of targets for our crucial CC; obviously you can't hibernate a target with dots on it, so you would have to be careful.

The loss here - and the biggest counterargument I can conceive - is the unique gameplay value of cyclone. Unlike many other CCs, cyclone can hurt your cause as much as it can help it. And while I adore this system, I'm not sure if it's best suited to feral, and maybe the hibernate idea is more defining of cats - not only in aesthetic, but fundamental gameplay.

I'd love to hear your thoughts on any of this, and I apologize greatly for the wall of text.

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Re: Alpha Testing

Post by Tinderhoof » Mon Jul 14, 2014 12:32 pm

hullaballoonatic wrote:That all is to say that while on the surface, the loss of things like snapshotting might appear to be a dramatic caving-in of the proudly-touted roof of this spec may be preventing you from noticing an equal obliteration of its floor.
This in essence is what I have been trying to communicate to people who have been complaining about how we have nothing new. I am getting kinda sick about hearing "nothing new/recycled talents" complaint. We are going to play a lot differently now and I am not seeing that as a bad thing. I still think we have some problems (like ignored talent levels), but I don't think we will be bland or boring this expac.

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Re: Alpha Testing

Post by Cetlysm » Mon Jul 14, 2014 1:49 pm

I think its more of a "They could be doing a lot of stuff for feral right now, but they're not"
But this sort of holds true for every other spec.
Hopefully this "new stuff" patch comes out once they're comfortable with the pruning and the scaling down.
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Re: Alpha Testing

Post by Tinderhoof » Mon Jul 14, 2014 2:05 pm

I wouldn't hold my breath. For the most part they said from the start this expac was more about streamlining classes. That is why the "percs" exist instead of new abilities. They aren't looking to prune down the ability lists just to add more right away. Other then talents I doubt we are going to see any new major additions unless they replace Savagery (please please please).

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Re: Alpha Testing

Post by Alpheus » Mon Jul 14, 2014 5:32 pm

Bear thrash hits like a truck at the moment since it scales with our kitty mastery. I did an extra run on a mythic dummy (raid buffed) where I used bloodtalons (what was formerly DoC) on thrash/rip and rake and shifted to bear form after I burned my energy to keep thrash running.

Check it out:

http://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/mxL ... e&source=1
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Re: Alpha Testing

Post by aggixx » Mon Jul 14, 2014 5:35 pm

Yup, its about a 5% DPS gain in SimulationCraft. A player can probably eek a little bit more out of it since they can be better at identifying when they will or won't cause resource waste. I already poked Celestalon about it, but I assume they don't care to fix it until balancing starts happening.

Nice job on actually logging it though, your uptimes are certainly better than mine are on default UI :D Dat TF CD is a killer, though.
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Re: Alpha Testing

Post by Alpheus » Mon Jul 14, 2014 5:45 pm

aggixx wrote:Yup, its about a 5% DPS gain in SimulationCraft. A player can probably eek a little bit more out of it since they can be better at identifying when they will or won't cause resource waste. I already poked Celestalon about it, but I assume they don't care to fix it until balancing starts happening.

Nice job on actually logging it though, your uptimes are certainly better than mine are on default UI :D Dat TF CD is a killer, though.
Did one with HotW wrath spam as well just for lols http://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/7Jh ... y&source=1

Played a bit worse on this one, shifting is quite annoying with 300ms. Bit worse than the other one but it has potential with bloodlust.

This is also in crit gear and crit enchants. Gonna try a couple runs with mastery.
aggixx wrote:Dat TF CD is a killer, though.
Ah I completely forgot it dispelled Tiger's Fury >.< Should've been a bit more careful.

Edit: did one with mastery as well: http://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/Jkt ... e&source=1

And this is me just spamming thrash for 4 minutes: http://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/X8p ... 3&target=4

Honestly, I'm so fucking done :D
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Re: Alpha Testing

Post by Alpheus » Mon Jul 14, 2014 6:33 pm

Looking at that, I'd say there's no way that's going to go live.
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Re: Alpha Testing

Post by aggixx » Tue Jul 15, 2014 6:57 am

Alpheus wrote:Ah I completely forgot it dispelled Tiger's Fury >.< Should've been a bit more careful.
I wasn't talking about Bear Form removing TF, I was talking about how hard it is to use TF exactly every 30s with the vanilla UI along with tracking everything else. I don't think cancelling TF really matters much if you're out of energy already anyway.
Alpheus wrote:Did one with HotW wrath spam as well just for lols
I'm guessing you didn't weapon swap judging from the numbers? You'd get a lot better results if you did, I don't think its worth it if you don't (similar to live).
Alpheus wrote:And this is me just spamming thrash for 4 minutes
Yeah I actually sim'd/optimized a profile that would just blow all of its CDs and then spam thrash, and maintain Rip during execute while spamming more thrash. It does surprisingly okay damage:
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Re: Alpha Testing

Post by Alpheus » Tue Jul 15, 2014 12:54 pm

aggixx wrote: I'm guessing you didn't weapon swap judging from the numbers? You'd get a lot better results if you did, I don't think its worth it if you don't (similar to live).
Hrm, I haven't actually. Haven't used hotw for so long that I actually forgot about it. Having no weak auras is no help either :/
aggixx wrote: Yeah I actually sim'd/optimized a profile that would just blow all of its CDs and then spam thrash, and maintain Rip during execute while spamming more thrash. It does surprisingly okay damage:
Considered doing something along those lines as well. Will try a scenario which burns CDs, applies a TF'd rip and goes on spamming thrash.
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Re: Alpha Testing

Post by Telkor » Wed Jul 16, 2014 6:37 pm

Anyone else having issues with hit boxes as feral? It may just be an issue with looking everywhere on the terrible UI but I feel like I need the graphic of my kitty needs to be buried nearly to the shoulders in the graphic of mobs to be counted as hitting them.

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Re: Alpha Testing

Post by Whitepaw » Thu Jul 17, 2014 6:35 am

hullaballoonatic wrote:Originally I was very disappointed when considering that Combo Points would now be stacking on the player instead of the target, because I figured this was abandoning the most defining limitation of the system, and would have rather seen the mechanics the player can utilize to mitigate it improved. This sort-of blinded me to the important implications for better gameplay that the new take on combo points implies: mostly that of an increased lateral thought process. That is to say, whereas originally combo points by their very nature previously supported a very tunnelvisiony approach, now with them easily transferable that's eliminated. Of course, there was a significant amount of forethought utilized by very good feral players in how they were going to overcome the loss of combo points when situations necessitated target switching, the new system encourages the player to be constantly aware of other targets, and opening the possibility of rolling our complex finishers on multiple targets is not making the game easier for us, but expanding the depth of the spec rather significantly.
I totally agree with you, Hulla. And I even believe that Savagery will accentuate what you are describing.

I do believe that we Ferals have been too focused on the single target rotation and how that could be made more fun - primarily because the boss fights have been fairly limited (1 target, stationary boss, a few attacks to be avoided, few phases). However, the developers have already started to spice that up in MoP (multiple targets, very mobile bosses, simultaneous attacks to be avoided, several phases) and that trend will probably continue.

So, instead of focusing on a very elaborate single target rotation, we should focus on how to play in a multi-target/multi-threat environment. One that demands high mobility, survivability and situational awareness. We already see this in MoP, where the bosses suddenly turn around all the time. They didn't do that nearly as often previously - but now, they rotate and pivot constantly. That almost negates Shred :( Personally, I don't like that, because Shred demanded more precise execution from me, but then I was rewarded by being able to do more damage. It also worked wonders in PvP. But these days, it feels archaic, because the gameplay has evolved away from the characteristics that used to make Shred shine.

Little by little, the gameplay changes and we adapt. But with the changes coming in WoD, Ferals will have to change more than we have since WotLK. The jump from TBC (where Ferals were not competitive damage dealers) to WotLK was gigantic - but it also started the reign of the single target champion that the Feral has been for the past 6 years.

That sort of pigeon-holed us. If the proposed changes in WoD Beta stay, we'll emerge as a multi-dotting and extremely mobile melee, with off-healing and off-tanking capability - and capable of casting ranged CC. The only downside to that would be if Blizzard suddenly decides to build single-target, non-moving boss fights in the instances and raids. I don't see that happening.

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Re: Alpha Testing

Post by teddabear » Fri Jul 18, 2014 10:39 am

Telkor wrote:Anyone else having issues with hit boxes as feral? It may just be an issue with looking everywhere on the terrible UI but I feel like I need the graphic of my kitty needs to be buried nearly to the shoulders in the graphic of mobs to be counted as hitting them.
That was a long term problem, as in 5+ years, that finally got fixed. It was fixed for horde by the cat form update in Lich King, and got fixed for Night Elves eventually. This is really easy to test. Attack a target dummy in caster form with your weapon at absolute max range. Then shift to cat and see if you can still attack.

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Re: Alpha Testing

Post by aggixx » Fri Jul 18, 2014 6:04 pm

LI Moonfire currently isn't being halved by Berserk on beta (clearly a bug and I've reported it as well).

On a related note, I was trying to make a macro that would only cast Moonfire when I'm in caster form or when I'm in Cat Form and specced into LI, but I couldn't get it to work. It doesn't seem like its possible to cast LI Moonfire via a macro, as I tried the obvious /cast Moonfire, /cast Moonfire(Lunar) and neither work. This is what I had:

Code: Select all

#showtooltip
/cast [noform][form:1,talent:7/1] Moonfire
Edit: Just "/cast Moonfire" works but as soon as you try to conditionalize it it doesn't.
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Re: Alpha Testing

Post by Tinderhoof » Fri Jul 18, 2014 6:20 pm

What are you trying to accomplish with that macro?

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Re: Alpha Testing

Post by aggixx » Fri Jul 18, 2014 6:49 pm

Make it so that if I hit the key when not specced into LI it won't try to cast caster form Moonfire and shift me out of Cat Form. Also I'll probably make it do something else when not specced into LI but thats beside the point.

PS: Now that I'm not using vanilla UI any more, Sten's definitely right that PF delay is gone.
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Re: Alpha Testing

Post by AsgardFM » Fri Jul 18, 2014 7:44 pm

aggixx wrote:Make it so that if I hit the key when not specced into LI it won't try to cast caster form Moonfire and shift me out of Cat Form. Also I'll probably make it do something else when not specced into LI but thats beside the point.
Can you imitate the HT macro currently used on live?
/run SetCVar("autoUnshift",0)
/cast Moonfire
/run SetCVar("autoUnshift",1)
Should prevent the unshifting while you don't have it specced.

Tier into my major gripe at the moment with bottom tier talents right now(function aside). One talent adds an ability, one removes an ability and one leaves it as base. Going to play havoc with my bindings going between the talents.


On an unrelated note, is Rejuvenation meant to be cast in Cat Form regardless of talents? Mine's been shifting me out at every cast recently.

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Re: Alpha Testing

Post by Cetlysm » Fri Jul 18, 2014 7:57 pm

Rejuv in cat is a perk I think.
It does work for me on 100lvl server.
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Re: Alpha Testing

Post by aggixx » Fri Jul 18, 2014 8:06 pm

Yeah its a perk, so you won't have it on a level 90.
AsgardFM wrote:Can you imitate the HT macro currently used on live?
I know I can do that but if LI moonfire doesn't work in macros, thats an issue. Was just wondering if anyone could get it to work the conventional way.

Edit: Encountered another bug, this time with Rake not generating combo points.
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