WoD Beta General Discussion

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Tremnen
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Re: WoD Beta General Discussion

Post by Tremnen » Fri Aug 22, 2014 8:27 am

Satrion wrote: how bad a throughput stat is Versatility compared to the better stats?
this is what i am looking forward to most. with the amount of downtime inherent in our build I was wondering what a Versatility > Crit build would look like compared to a Crit > Mastery build compared to a Mastery > Crit build or even a Crit > Versatility build. someone in my guild was looking at beta simcraft profiles I'll see if I can find it.

Obviously I would expect Versatility > Crit to do less damage compared to either Crit>Mastery and Mastery>Crit but I would like to compare the damage reduction and the healing output to see if the trade off would be worth it.

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Steakbomb
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Re: WoD Beta General Discussion

Post by Steakbomb » Fri Aug 22, 2014 3:26 pm

Even with most of Snapshotting gone, I am going to assume our builds are still going to be Mastery > Anything because once tuning goes through, our bleeds are still going to hit like a truck, just nothing like it does now because of the loss of snapshotting.

I would assume that in the end we will be looking at something like Agi>Mastery>Crit>Versitility>Haste>other side stats

I could be completely wrong as I am not in the beta yet but even though we are getting more direct dmg instead of bleeds, bleeds are still the fundamental gameplay of our spec.
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Re: WoD Beta General Discussion

Post by Mooninites » Fri Aug 22, 2014 3:58 pm

New set bonuses posted:

2 set - Dealing bleed damage restores 3 energy

4 set - While Berserk active, special attacks deal an additional 15% bleed damage to the target over 6 seconds.

http://beta.wowdb.com/items/115544-livi ... nusIDs=566


thoughts?

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Re: WoD Beta General Discussion

Post by Tremnen » Fri Aug 22, 2014 4:11 pm

I think the 4 piece is interesting but the 2 piece is boring and will further devalue haste for us.

@steakbomb Agility is basically a nonfactor as no enchants or gems will have it so you can basically forget about it as a stat priority. and last i looked Crit was ever so barely ahead of mastery for us (probably because with agility no longer giving crit we are going to start at much lower crit percentages than we previously had going into this expansion)

Bleeds definitely are our highest damage abilities but from what I saw on the last simcraft profile weaving thrash isnt even a thing for OoC procs anymore single target. multistrike is also very good stat. But the point I am trying to make is how much of a DPS loss will I take if I try and maximize my hybrid healing? We will have a ton of downtime in our rotation to spam rejuvs out on the raid how can I maximize that healing? Mastery does absolutely nothing as a stat for that aspect of our gameplay. Versatility multistrike crit haste all do. Obviously I would want to refrain from trying a max haste build as the dps loss will likely to be to large a trade off but if a Crit > Versatility build is only 2-3% behind a Mastery>Crit build I'd take the damage trade off for the healing and damage reduction especially pushing mythic content. Its why I also want to see how claws of Shirvallah will sim vs bloody talons on a dps and healign perspective perspective.

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Re: WoD Beta General Discussion

Post by Mooninites » Fri Aug 22, 2014 4:17 pm

agree, the 2 set piece is boring, but they synergize together which is pretty nice

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Stenhaldi
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Re: WoD Beta General Discussion

Post by Stenhaldi » Fri Aug 22, 2014 5:57 pm

Tremnen wrote:...thrash isnt even a thing for OoC procs anymore single target.
Well, thrash isn't even worth using for (most) AoE right now. I imagine it'll be much stronger once Blizzard bothers to look at multitarget balance.

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Re: WoD Beta General Discussion

Post by Tremnen » Fri Aug 22, 2014 10:35 pm

I think thrash will likely make a comeback for OOC procs unless shred gets a major buff. I feel liek Blizz gave up on ever making haste valueable for us as our entire niche amongst the energy based specs is we have 3 abilities and a talent that give us back extra energy or reduce energy costs. Adding a 4th ability to regen energy is I think a concession that they realize we wont be picking up haste (well except we will have to on 2 pieces at least because our tier has 3 pieces with haste on it and no versatility at all on any piece which as the most hybrid of hybrid classes i think is a mistake.)

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Cetlysm
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Re: WoD Beta General Discussion

Post by Cetlysm » Sat Aug 23, 2014 12:11 am

What's so wrong about making haste affect bleeds anyways?
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Re: WoD Beta General Discussion

Post by Kraineth » Sat Aug 23, 2014 1:43 am

Cetlysm wrote:What's so wrong about making haste affect bleeds anyways?
Because it would set a bad precedent. Haste for melee has affects swing speed and resource generation, while for ranged it affects dots and cast speed.

If haste started affecting melee dots it would be doing too much all at once for melee and either our swing speed or our resource generation would have to be disconnected
Tremnen wrote: our tier has 3 pieces with haste on it and no versatility at all on any piece which as the most hybrid of hybrid classes i think is a mistake.)
I don't really think it is a mistake, Blizzard should avoid forcing an experimental stat onto people's tier pieces.

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Meaningless
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Re: WoD Beta General Discussion

Post by Meaningless » Sat Aug 23, 2014 8:30 am

So far on mythic testing I've been running full crit build ( with gems ;)) and RoRo. So basicly when RoRo procs I'm sitting at 101% crit, and RoRo seems to have an avg 50% uptime on the beta.

I'm doing roughly 15k HPS just throwing rejuvs and healing touch at tanks and other ppl in the raid. As far as my damage goes it's currently (playing without Bloodtalons):

1. Melee
2. Rip
3. Rake
4. Shred
5. Ferocious Bite

So even without any mastery our bleeds still does alot of damage.

I'll gladly try something else out for the next mythic testing if anyone has any ideas =]
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Re: WoD Beta General Discussion

Post by Sacredknight » Sat Aug 23, 2014 8:37 am

Kraineth wrote:
Cetlysm wrote:What's so wrong about making haste affect bleeds anyways?
Because it would set a bad precedent. Haste for melee has affects swing speed and resource generation, while for ranged it affects dots and cast speed.

If haste started affecting melee dots it would be doing too much all at once for melee and either our swing speed or our resource generation would have to be disconnected
I think that's more of a guideline than a rule, haste definitely effects my ember generation on my warlock. Now I have not looked at stat values at all on beta yet but if haste is still really low I can't see letting it stay there cause of a guideline. Granted there are other ways to increase hastes value like making our resources more valuable.

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Re: WoD Beta General Discussion

Post by ShmooDude » Sat Aug 23, 2014 1:57 pm

Meaningless wrote:So far on mythic testing I've been running full crit build ( with gems ;)) and RoRo.
Yeah, but that's nothing anyone will be able to rely on for live. Rune is getting ilvl buffed to raid ilvl causing its proc rate to skyrocket. Many of the SoO trinkets cause funny scaling like that too (the amp ones for sure, might be others). Its nothing that will be viable on live (though probably tons of fun on beta :) ).

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Meaningless
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Re: WoD Beta General Discussion

Post by Meaningless » Sat Aug 23, 2014 2:25 pm

ShmooDude wrote:
Meaningless wrote:So far on mythic testing I've been running full crit build ( with gems ;)) and RoRo.
Yeah, but that's nothing anyone will be able to rely on for live. Rune is getting ilvl buffed to raid ilvl causing its proc rate to skyrocket. Many of the SoO trinkets cause funny scaling like that too (the amp ones for sure, might be others). Its nothing that will be viable on live (though probably tons of fun on beta :) ).
The trinket will cause my damage to skyrocket yes, but because of the high uptime(sometimes up towards 80-90%), it makes my haste and mastery complete poo. I used it to see if our bleeds would still do reasonable damage without me stacking any mastery at all :D (For anyone interested, my bleeds did on avg 43,79% of my damage with this setup).

Unless I'm mistaken the only ability that actually doesn't get a fair trade in this is FB because the overwhelming amount of crit makes the bonus on FB useless.

On another note, has anyone heard anything about Savage roar changes coming up? Or are they sticking with the strict 42 seconds :(?
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Tremnen
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Re: WoD Beta General Discussion

Post by Tremnen » Sat Aug 23, 2014 5:55 pm

Kraineth wrote: I don't really think it is a mistake, Blizzard should avoid forcing an experimental stat onto people's tier pieces.
You mean like multi strike which is one a piece of our tier gear?

Versatility is going to be better than haste for us unless they drastically change stat weights from what they are right now. I think it makes far more sense to have 1 piece of gear have it on it than 3 pieces have haste. Remember you don't have to take the piece of tier with versatility on it if you don't want to make it your off piece.

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Re: WoD Beta General Discussion

Post by teddabear » Sat Aug 23, 2014 11:07 pm

Kraineth wrote:
Cetlysm wrote:What's so wrong about making haste affect bleeds anyways?
Because it would set a bad precedent. Haste for melee has affects swing speed and resource generation, while for ranged it affects dots and cast speed.

If haste started affecting melee dots it would be doing too much all at once for melee and either our swing speed or our resource generation would have to be disconnected
Tremnen wrote: our tier has 3 pieces with haste on it and no versatility at all on any piece which as the most hybrid of hybrid classes i think is a mistake.)
I don't really think it is a mistake, Blizzard should avoid forcing an experimental stat onto people's tier pieces.
The effect of Haste on dots and cast speed is substantial, the effect on energy regeneration is not. Blizzard could improve Haste for Feral by increasing energy regeneration but that would be a poor fix. The delta in combo point generation between first tier and last tier is already too large. Having Haste effect bleeds makes more sense from a design perspective. I don't think you can really generalize that way regarding melee vs ranged anyway, the mechanics are too different for different specs.

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Cetlysm
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Re: WoD Beta General Discussion

Post by Cetlysm » Sun Aug 24, 2014 2:34 am

  • Ideas to make haste not complete garbage and versatility better.
  • Allow haste to give bleeds the chance to proc OoC with each tick, and let OoC to store 2 charges max.
  • Let haste increase max energy.
  • Add an additional effect to versatility that also reduces the GCD on utility and heal spells.
  • Give versatility an effect similar to current live NV, so healing also does damage but not the other way around.
  • Make haste a multistat for ferals, giving you a bit of everything, crit, mastery, multistrike.



    All the ones below are asking for trouble, but if implemented right it could be good.
  • Allow haste to increase bleed duration, on cast, no extensions.
  • Allow haste to refund energy on finishers, like SotF.
  • Allow haste to reduce CP generator cost.
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Re: WoD Beta General Discussion

Post by Athen » Sun Aug 24, 2014 9:57 am

For me haste should be in a spot where spirit is for healer. Get enough to be comfortable with resourcemanagement. And at the moment haste does exactly the same. It gives us more energy and OoC-procs. To buff haste (which i don't think they need to) they can just increase our damage/energy-proportions which they already did by buffing fb. Haste does not affect our bleeds directly but it makes our "rotation" smoother.
Not any stat should give the same amaunt of damage. Versatility gives more ulitily, mastery gives more damage to bleeds and haste is a stat which allows us to do more skills on our target. We can decide what we want and thats how stats should be. And i see haste to be a good stat for people who aren't that used to feral because due to higher energy reg they don't get that punished for pressing a wrong button.

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Re: WoD Beta General Discussion

Post by AsgardFM » Sun Aug 24, 2014 12:12 pm

Meaningless wrote: On another note, has anyone heard anything about Savage roar changes coming up? Or are they sticking with the strict 42 seconds :(?
I've not heard anything about it for a while. Unfortunate as having to refresh SR early has always felt like a waste, despite making an easier rotation. I had hopes that Pandemic would solve this one for me.

As for the haste discussion, I'd always assumed that haste had no affect on Bleeds because of how they work within the classes. Ferals, Rogues and Warriors are the only ones with bleed effects.
Warriors bleeds are currently a very minor element of damage, either passive through Deep Wounds or active through Bloodbath. Both spells would change little with the addition of haste.
For Ferals and Rogues, however, we have bleeds are applied as a finisher effect (Rip and Rupture). If you start having haste affect bleeds then you shorten the duration of these DoTs. A shorter duration then goes to dramatically altering way your rotation works; you suddenly need to apply a new Rip every 20 seconds rather than every 24. While this method of DoTs works fine for casters (who can recast the DoT instantly) it starts to fall over when you have a CP requirement for casting.
If you then add Bloodlust into the mix and Rip duration could drop even lower, leading to a situation where you don't want to ever consider casting FB because you don't have the time to regain combo points. Having a stat that would reduce the amount that you use an ability (rather than increase as haste/crit levels currently do) is against the design for every other spec I can think of.

I don't think we'll ever have Haste making bleeds faster, or see it as 'the' stat that Ferals want, but I do feel the only change needed is to buff the amount of energy regen that Haste provides.

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Re: WoD Beta General Discussion

Post by Meaningless » Sun Aug 24, 2014 1:09 pm

Without the option to reforge away from haste I have the feeling we'll be having issue to spend all our energy when we get 2 set (and/or at higher ilvls), and considering the fact that 3 out of 5 set pieces has haste on them makes it even worse :( I hope incarnation is gonna be top dps...
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Re: WoD Beta General Discussion

Post by Whitepaw » Sun Aug 24, 2014 3:36 pm

I'd like more active gameplay. Upping Haste to regenerate Energy would be welcome. Auto-attacks should be nerfed accordingly. This would make for more engaging gameplay, but would probably be harder to balance.

This could leave Berserk in a difficult spot at higher ilvls. A redesign could be necessary. One possibility could be to make Berserk buff SR. Another for Berserk to let our attacks ignore Armor. A third could be to let attacks during Berserk always add extra Combo Points per attack - there are lots of options.

But a Haste buff to regenerating Energy would make the stat more desirable for us - and let us use our damage abilities more.

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Re: WoD Beta General Discussion

Post by AsgardFM » Sun Aug 24, 2014 4:12 pm

Whitepaw wrote:I'd like more active gameplay. Upping Haste to regenerate Energy would be welcome. Auto-attacks should be nerfed accordingly. This would make for more engaging gameplay, but would probably be harder to balance.

This could leave Berserk in a difficult spot at higher ilvls. A redesign could be necessary. One possibility could be to make Berserk buff SR. Another for Berserk to let our attacks ignore Armor. A third could be to let attacks during Berserk always add extra Combo Points per attack - there are lots of options.

But a Haste buff to regenerating Energy would make the stat more desirable for us - and let us use our damage abilities more.
High itemlevels is already a bit of a problem with energy regen. Bloodlust+Berserk leaves me constantly between 85-100 energy if Rune has not procced. While I agree that energy levels at the start of the expansion are almost painful (without 2set, admittedly) it does tend to reach the opposite end fairly quickly.
I think a Berserk redesign was discussed with Celalstalon over twitter a few months ago. Blizzard currently seems to hold the view that it's one of the more powerful cooldowns available. I don't think it'll see a redesign this expansion unless Energy-capping becomes a severe problem.

Also, does anyone know the the 2set will work with Thrash? Having 10 targets all with thrash and one target with Rip/Rake and thats going to be 70 odd energy over 6 seconds? I see a slight problem.

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Re: WoD Beta General Discussion

Post by ShmooDude » Sun Aug 24, 2014 4:38 pm

AsgardFM wrote:If you start having haste affect bleeds then you shorten the duration of these DoTs.
That's not how hasted DoTs/HoTs work in WoD (and the problem would have been negligible in MoP as you'd simply have haste breakpoints for extra ticks instead).

Duration doesn't change, they simply tick faster. If the DoT/HoT falls off without being refreshed, a partial tick based on how long it was since the last tick is given.

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Re: WoD Beta General Discussion

Post by AsgardFM » Sun Aug 24, 2014 6:43 pm

ShmooDude wrote:
AsgardFM wrote:If you start having haste affect bleeds then you shorten the duration of these DoTs.
That's not how hasted DoTs/HoTs work in WoD (and the problem would have been negligible in MoP as you'd simply have haste breakpoints for extra ticks instead).

Duration doesn't change, they simply tick faster. If the DoT/HoT falls off without being refreshed, a partial tick based on how long it was since the last tick is given.
Oh, my bad then. Shows how much attention I've been paying to caster mechanics for this expansion.

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Re: WoD Beta General Discussion

Post by Tinderhoof » Sun Aug 24, 2014 9:44 pm

AsgardFM wrote:I've not heard anything about it for a while. Unfortunate as having to refresh SR early has always felt like a waste, despite making an easier rotation. I had hopes that Pandemic would solve this one for me.
It's a bug (stated in twitter last week). I believe they broke it for almost everyone.
Whitepaw wrote:I'd like more active gameplay. Upping Haste to regenerate Energy would be welcome.
It already does. It has since Cata. It just does it really really badly. Also pushing Shred is not more active gameplay, and not interesting at all.
Whitepaw wrote:Auto-attacks should be nerfed accordingly.
Attack speed also gets very little from haste because we have a default 1 second auto attack speed. When you start with 1 and reduce that by 1% you get little difference. Now white attacks hitting to hard right is IS a problem, and it will get nerfed. It just won't have anything to do with Haste.
Whitepaw wrote:But a Haste buff to regenerating Energy would make the stat more desirable for us - and let us use our damage abilities more.
This is undesirable because it would have a cap. Once we hit a GCD cap Haste would become worthless and our gameplay model would be destroyed. "More Energy" isn't a good solution.

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Re: WoD Beta General Discussion

Post by Whitepaw » Mon Aug 25, 2014 3:02 am

Hi Tinder :D

Actually, I think Haste started to scale energy regeneration at the end of WotLK, when Armor Penetration got removed. When I write "upping", I mean buff that mechanic.

I agree that if Haste was buffed too much, we would risk capping energy, because we couldn't use it fast enough. So yes, GCD could limit this. But energy regeneration through Haste could be buffed while still not hitting that ceiling. The other solution to make Haste a better stat has been rejected many times by the devs (let our DoTs scale with Haste).

So what other options do we have to make Haste a better stat?

Besides, buffing Haste energy regen could make our spec more desirable to play. Right now, it's a spec with some downtime (and by downtime, I mean "time not used to press buttons because we are waiting for energy to regenerate"). Some of that downtime will disappear with the removal of snapshotting from procs - but buffing Haste could make a Haste build on-par with other builds. So, we would have more choice in how to gear and we wouldn't feel penalised for having Haste on our gear.

PS: Your opinion about Shred is subjective. I'm sure that some would prefer a Feral gameplay with more burst damage, more damage from our direct damage abilities and less damage from our DoTs and auto-attacks. In fact, this kind of gameplay would look and feel more like it did in WotLK, when we had Armor Penetration. I didn't like that stat, but I preferred the damage model we had back then when compared to the one we got in Cataclysm. And no, it's not because I'm "bad" at applying DoTs at the right time, overwriting them at the right time, debuffing with FF and keeping SR up (order of mention is NOT order of priority).
It's because it leads to this laid-back style of play, where we apply an ability and then wait for the effect on the target. I'd like our damage model to move more towards having that effect right away on our target.

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