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Westerberg
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Re: Alpha Testing

Post by Westerberg » Sat Jun 28, 2014 9:48 am

Kraineth wrote: You actually don't even need to go into stealth to get the free SR and all other stealth benefits. Rake will also stun any time you use it during Incarnation and shred will do the extra damage.

Oh really, so basically the part of "Incarnation" that cause Shred and Rake to function as if stealth were active, will make your SR kept up during the duration?
That sounds even better!

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Tinderhoof
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Re: Alpha Testing

Post by Tinderhoof » Sat Jun 28, 2014 3:31 pm

That is provided you have the SR glyph.

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Major_Bones
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Re: Alpha Testing

Post by Major_Bones » Sat Jun 28, 2014 5:53 pm

Without any solid numbers or theory, what is your gut feeling on the diff. of BT vs Savagery? Think it's pretty clear BT will still be top dog, just curious how the others feel atm.

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Kraineth
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Re: Alpha Testing

Post by Kraineth » Sat Jun 28, 2014 9:23 pm

BT is just DoC, I never really liked DoC so meh, some people love it.

Savagery is crazy boring, praying I never have to use it.

Hoping Lunar Inspiration is competitive DPS because adding another DoT is a lot of fun.

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Tinderhoof
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Re: Alpha Testing

Post by Tinderhoof » Sun Jun 29, 2014 3:47 am

I think Savagery is a trap talent. It encourages new comers to not really learn how to play the class. If it's damage is on par with the other two talents there is no point to doing anything but the guaranteed damage which is bad. If it comes out to be less (like it should be) the people who use it limit themselves by not learning how the class should be played. No other class has a level 100 talent that not only reduces damage output while removing a core aspect of the spec. It isn't possible to balance properly because it will be either too good, or just bad.

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Kraineth
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Re: Alpha Testing

Post by Kraineth » Sun Jun 29, 2014 5:44 am

Tinderhoof wrote:I think Savagery is a trap talent. It encourages new comers to not really learn how to play the class. If it's damage is on par with the other two talents there is no point to doing anything but the guaranteed damage which is bad. If it comes out to be less (like it should be) the people who use it limit themselves by not learning how the class should be played. No other class has a level 100 talent that not only reduces damage output while removing a core aspect of the spec. It isn't possible to balance properly because it will be either too good, or just bad.
Yea it is still pretty bad, it was a lot worse when it was competing with the old Bloody Thrash. They may just relegate it to being a PvP talent, though I'm not sure it's even a good option for PvP either.

Also, not sure if these are new additions with the beta, but Faerie Fire now does not have a mana cost when used out of form, pretty nice. I used to take the faerie swarm talent when farming/on horridon since that made it free as well, but the slow is pretty annoying when just wanting to range pull a mob.

Berserk also has an update to it's animation, we get glowing eyes. These new animations for feral (Survival Instincts, Thrash, and now Berserk) are really nice!

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Kraineth
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Re: Alpha Testing

Post by Kraineth » Sun Jun 29, 2014 6:03 am

Also worth noting, that not only is savagery the only level 100 talent I know of that keeps players from learning the proper rotation, but most classes' level 100 talents have varied uses, most dps specs are getting at least 1 AoE and 1 single target talent, and then sometimes a burst CD/utility spell.

Essentially there are fights where other classes will change their talents because 1 is suboptimal (things like long duration dots/AoE) While the feral talents really all compete with one another. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, it allows us to customize our rotation, but it also means if a talent that we don't like is the highest dps option then we are sacrificing damage so we can play the spec how we want.

DoC/HotW sort of had this problem, but taking HotW over DoC was justified largely because HotW was such big utility, thankfully that has been sorted out of course.

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Major_Bones
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Re: Alpha Testing

Post by Major_Bones » Sun Jun 29, 2014 4:58 pm

I agree Kraineth. Being forced into one talent (for max dps) was annoying for all of MoP. HotW really loses it's value once the raid is way over geared and on non-progression fights. I haven't "needed" to use it for months.

Seeing how much Druids are getting pruned down now, I would prefer to see Savagery change. I don't mind easier SR use, but something along the lines of what Mut rogues used to do, like Biting a target with Rip up refreshes/extends SR, not just make it passive 100%.

As for LI. Idk man, everyone I've seen testing it so far says it hits like a wet noodle. Tuning might fix, I just don't think anything will compete with BT especially with the CP changes. Lots more CP to spend means more BTs to use. MAYBE if they capped the number of targets like old school Bomb and made it crush ST damage, it wouldn't be OP for multi-dot and useful for ST.

I personally hate DoC/BT mechanic but looks like were going to be stuck with it unless something crazy happens. However, WoD changes to game play will make it MUCH easier to stomach using BT than Live.

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aggixx
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Re: Alpha Testing

Post by aggixx » Sun Jun 29, 2014 6:07 pm

Major_Bones wrote:Without any solid numbers or theory, what is your gut feeling on the diff. of BT vs Savagery? Think it's pretty clear BT will still be top dog, just curious how the others feel atm.
Since Savagery is a passive and Bloodtalons is active, they will almost definitely aim to tune Bloodtalons to be more DPS than Savagery when used properly as that is the precedent they have set.
Honestly if it wasn't for that reason alone I think there'd be a lot more complaining about Savagery as a talent. As it stands that gives people an excuse to never use it.
Major_Bones wrote:As for LI. Idk man, everyone I've seen testing it so far says it hits like a wet noodle. Tuning might fix, I just don't think anything will compete with BT especially with the CP changes. Lots more CP to spend means more BTs to use. MAYBE if they capped the number of targets like old school Bomb and made it crush ST damage, it wouldn't be OP for multi-dot and useful for ST.
Yes, LI currently hits like the wettest of noodles. If you're testing it, expect its damage output to be very, very underwhelming.


I would tend to agree that the 100 talents are overall mediocre at best. Recycling Dream of Cenarius as Bloodtalons is fine, clearly some people like it otherwise they wouldn't have brought it back, but if they want to make people happy with the tier then the other two talents have to be strong and well fleshed-out. The problem is that the talents in the tier are just far too polarizing. Objectively, Bloodtalons isn't that polarizing, but the fact that most ferals that have played in MoP have already tried it and formed their opinion on it means a good portion of players will know if they want to use the talent before they even spec into it.

Savagery, among its other issues, is just about as polarizing as you can get. The majority of ferals will most likely try the talent once or twice and decide that they either do want to use it as their "main talent" (even if its less DPS) or that they never want to use it all if they don't have to. This is certainly not what I would consider a quality you want to have in a talent.

For the people that dislike Bloodtalons but don't want to dumb down their gameplay by playing Savagery (I'd speculate that's maybe 10-40% of ferals? Not sure, but its definitely not a group you want to disregard) they're essentially shoehorned into Lunar Inspiration and if they don't enjoy that either they're going to be extremely dissatisfied. And even if they do enjoy Lunar Inspiration, playing one talent and being greatly averse to the other two isn't ideal either.
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Tinderhoof
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Re: Alpha Testing

Post by Tinderhoof » Sun Jun 29, 2014 8:16 pm

Pretty sure I am going to choke the next person to says anything like this:
aggixx wrote:Yes, LI currently hits like the wettest of noodles. If you're testing it, expect its damage output to be very, very underwhelming.
or
Major_Bones wrote:As for LI. Idk man, everyone I've seen testing it so far says it hits like a wet noodle.
LI doesn't work on Beta. It has NEVER worked on Alpha or Beta. If people are saying it hits like a wet noodle, they are either lying to you, or they are still taking the moonkin version of moonfire and trying to plug that into Feral and assume its going to be the same. No one knows what it's going to look like until there is actually a Feral Moonfire spell in the game (there isn't one yet).

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aggixx
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Re: Alpha Testing

Post by aggixx » Sun Jun 29, 2014 10:30 pm

Tinderhoof wrote:until there is actually a Feral Moonfire spell in the game (there isn't one yet).
There is. I just assumed they managed to get it working for some short period of time, perhaps that's not the case. I wouldn't have to make such assumptions, but alas, I have no beta access. Regardless, when people do finally get to try it out don't expect miracles.
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Kraineth
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Re: Alpha Testing

Post by Kraineth » Mon Jun 30, 2014 2:39 am

Tinderhoof wrote:Pretty sure I am going to choke the next person to says anything like this:
aggixx wrote:Yes, LI currently hits like the wettest of noodles. If you're testing it, expect its damage output to be very, very underwhelming.
or
Major_Bones wrote:As for LI. Idk man, everyone I've seen testing it so far says it hits like a wet noodle.
LI doesn't work on Beta. It has NEVER worked on Alpha or Beta. If people are saying it hits like a wet noodle, they are either lying to you, or they are still taking the moonkin version of moonfire and trying to plug that into Feral and assume its going to be the same. No one knows what it's going to look like until there is actually a Feral Moonfire spell in the game (there isn't one yet).
It definitely worked in Alpha when the level 100 talents worked at 92, which is why my first post mentions that it does in fact grant 2 cp's on crit

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Minibubble
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Re: Alpha Testing

Post by Minibubble » Mon Jun 30, 2014 5:22 am

Despite the critique over Savagery i think it has its niche. As everyone mentioned it could be the gateway skill for new and inexpirienced players. I could see myself using this talent for farming i.e. Frogs or Reputation in Timless Isle. The mobs doesn't live long enough to benefit from BT i guess. Also how will BT work with DoT's? Will it be snapshotting like SR and TF ?
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Kraineth
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Re: Alpha Testing

Post by Kraineth » Mon Jun 30, 2014 5:45 am

Minibubble wrote:Despite the critique over Savagery i think it has its niche. As everyone mentioned it could be the gateway skill for new and inexpirienced players. I could see myself using this talent for farming i.e. Frogs or Reputation in Timless Isle. The mobs doesn't live long enough to benefit from BT i guess. Also how will BT work with DoT's? Will it be snapshotting like SR and TF ?
Yes BT will snapshot with our bleeds

I wouldn't really call Savagery a "gateway skill" It is definitely a trap for newer players who initially can't handle the rotation. Other classes don't learn their proper rotation by leaving out a major component and then trying to add it back in later, that really isn't a good way to practice or learn anything.

Savagery is mainly aimed at new players, and while I can understand blizzard wants to help people ease into feral because it remains to be the least played DPS spec in the game(Even lower than Windwalker monks), but losing a talent slot to make the rotation easier is just bad, and so is blizzard making DPS talents that have to be inferior to everything else in the tier because they are passive/dumb down the spec.

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Re: Alpha Testing

Post by teddabear » Mon Jun 30, 2014 6:26 am

So far we have a recycled 90 talent, a bad EZ mode talent and a non-functional talent. So far it looks like the only thing they have devoted significant time to is removing as many Feral abilities as possible. How about a talent that focuses on the areas Feral is bad at? T If Bloody Talons was too strong just have Rake hit 2 targets. Make Ferocious Bite worthwhile. There is plenty of stuff they could fix if they would actually do the work. It shouldn't be that hard. They continuously remind us how much better their data is than what we have access to, so it should be child's play to figure out which areas need help.

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raffy
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Re: Alpha Testing

Post by raffy » Mon Jun 30, 2014 7:14 pm

I think it's bad design if our L100 talents mapped directly to different encounter mechanics -- what kind of choice is that? AoE fight uses the AoE talent, single-target fight uses single-target talent, burst fight uses burst talent, etc.

While many of you are considering Savagery as the "noob" choice, depending on how strong Bear thrash-weaving is (aggixx has been working on this), Savagery frees up a glyph slot for Master Shapeshifter, doesn't concern itself with SR opportunity cost (while in Bear), and allows for more damaging finishers. For AoE situations, Savagery + Bear Thrash + cleaving Rake/Rips onto as many targets as possible could be the high-skill cap rotation because the complexity comes from decision-making instead of mechanical execution. Another benefit is when you're pooling CP for a new target (like a burst mechanic) -- wut do if SR falls off? -- Savagery guarantees your combos can be dumped into a full-strength Rip, whereas Bloodtalons has both SR and "DoC" charge considerations. Lastly, situations like battlegrounds, dueling, questing, farming all synergize well with Savagery.

Lastly, don't forget about the combo-point change. This primarily helps us because Rogues already had multiple options in their toolkit. Just think of this as the invisible L90 talent. This change alone almost makes us a completely different beast. We've been a DoT spec relegated to single-target damage for 10 years and now we can wreck havoc on any target of our choosing. Although our DoTs require melee range for application (except Moonfire), our mobility makes it less awkward. And while Bloodtalons = DoC, Bloodtalons + combo-point freedom is DoC 2.0 because we can run BT in multi-target situations and not worry about wasted CP and poor PS generation.

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Tinderhoof
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Re: Alpha Testing

Post by Tinderhoof » Mon Jun 30, 2014 8:00 pm

teddabear wrote:So far it looks like the only thing they have devoted significant time to is removing as many Feral abilities as possible.
The negativity in parts of this thread is getting a little to toxic for my tastes. It's ok to dislike something. It's ok to give harsh feedback. The quoted line is not feedback, it's just complaining. Give feedback, and leave the whining out of it.
teddabear wrote:Make Ferocious Bite worthwhile.
•Ferocious Bite now has double the normal chance to critically strike against bleeding targets (instead of having an additional 25% chance to critically strike).
If you haven't noticed most of the changes have been making our direct damage more enticing to use.
teddabear wrote:If Bloody Talons was too strong just have Rake hit 2 targets.
On top of this being to OP, it was also mindless. You remove a button from our rotation and combine it with another. That isn't good gameplay. Making it hit less targets wouldn't change that, and also there isn't a good way to pick which target to put both Rakes on. It's not compelling at all.
teddabear wrote:There is plenty of stuff they could fix if they would actually do the work. It shouldn't be that hard. They continuously remind us how much better their data is than what we have access to, so it should be child's play to figure out which areas need help.
Not sure if you have been paying attention to anything but they have addressed out biggest shortcomings in HUGE ways. We can target swap for the first time EVER with out consequence. We have reasons to properly time our bleed refreshes to make the most use of their time. They are removing the bugged extension mechanic of Rip and making it longer. How are these not good changes? They are at the root of what we have been asking for YEARS. Even the people who hated SR all these years have an option. I think it's a bad one, but it's there. Sure I am not happy with some of the spells we lost, but I am super happy that they have already done a lot of work to make us better then we are now (which is pretty darn good).

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Re: Alpha Testing

Post by Tinderhoof » Mon Jun 30, 2014 8:06 pm

raffy wrote:While many of you are considering Savagery as the "noob" choice, depending on how strong Bear thrash-weaving is (aggixx has been working on this), Savagery frees up a glyph slot for Master Shapeshifter, doesn't concern itself with SR opportunity cost, and allows for more damaging finishers. For AoE situations, Savagery + Bear Thrash + cleaving Rake/Rips onto as many targets as possible easily could be the high-skill cap rotation because the complexity comes from decision-making instead of mechanical execution. Another benefit is when you're pooling CP for a new target (like a burst mechanic) -- wut do if SR falls off? -- Savagery guarantees your combos can be dumped into a full-strength Rip, whereas Bloodtalons has both SR and "DoC" charge considerations. Lastly, situations like battlegrounds, dueling, questing, farming all synergize well with Savagery.
While I understand the value of these options for the Savagery talent it doesn't make the talent less of a trap. Sure the ferals who will use the talent as you describe are likely ones who would be able to play each of the other talents well already. Opting to remove such a big part of how our rotation works will trap new players who pick it. Once they get used to not having SR, it's way harder to learn both to put SR back in let alone start to add HT + BT's/Moonfire into the mix. It will make things frustrating for those players, and it's going to cause damage to be much lower while learning it. That all makes for a situation in which they won't ever use something else. I don't consider it a newb talent. I consider it a talent that prevents people from learning how to really use their class.

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Re: Alpha Testing

Post by Kraineth » Mon Jun 30, 2014 9:11 pm

Celestalon already has bear thrash on his radar since it is doing insane amount of damage compared to Cat Thrash. He already said if it becomes optimal in any situation it will be fixed. SR snapshotting will already do a lot to nerf Bear Thrash damage, but it will inevitably be nerfed even harder since it is ticking/Hitting for like 10X damage of cat thrash

I think weaving bear thrash would be horrible design.

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Re: Alpha Testing

Post by raffy » Mon Jun 30, 2014 9:25 pm

Aggixx was doing some simc stuff with Bear Thrash the other day so he has the data. I've been curious but haven't got that far with Catus2. There will always be Bear Thrash temptations with the amount of idle time we have during AoE situations. Unless the ability does MoP Moonfire-grade damage, weaving a Bear Thrash will be worth something.

But mostly, I just meant that passive SR gives you more freedom to use Bear/caster w/o paying a tax. Bear Thrash was the first thing I thought of :)

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Re: Alpha Testing

Post by aggixx » Mon Jun 30, 2014 11:27 pm

As it stands Bear Thrash is at best a 5%, maybe 6%, DPS gain (and its much more enticing on AoE). Unless Bear Thrash gets incidentally nerfed when they balance Guardians (which is very possible, it does quite a lot of damage) then there will certainly be a targeted nerf for us as Celestalon promised. Us using Bear Thrash rotationally also has the added bonus of completely ruining their intended stat balance (mastery becomes far to good, haste gets a bit worse) which is all the more reason for them to fix it.
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Re: Alpha Testing

Post by aggixx » Tue Jul 01, 2014 3:21 am

Normally I wouldn't post sim numbers yet but I'll make an exception because they need to fix this.

With SotF: ~2.08% gain
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With Incarnation: ~1.29% gain
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The Shadowmeld profiles use Shadowmeld to gain a free 42 seconds of Savage Roar via Glyph of Savage Roar and 15 seconds of double damage rake via Improved Rake (in practice you could milk this more for almost 20 seconds). Keep in mind Shadowmeld is not Night Elves' DPS racial as they have Touch of Elune (1% haste or 1% crit).
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Tinderhoof
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Re: Alpha Testing

Post by Tinderhoof » Tue Jul 01, 2014 3:39 am

In total agreement here. Looks like they are going to look at it this time.

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Re: Alpha Testing

Post by aggixx » Tue Jul 01, 2014 3:40 am

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Re: Alpha Testing

Post by Athen » Tue Jul 01, 2014 8:24 am

Bear trash looks so strong that 5% sounds quite low. The initial hit is more than twice as strong than shred and the trash dot is pretty close to rip. (note that you can buff bear trash with doc aka bloodtalon)
Is it possible that you can show the rotation you are using with catus? Maybe it is better to waste some energy and just stand in bearform longer and spam trash. Just go cat for refreshing dots quickly.
Bear trash is way too strong in my opinion at the moment. I was leveling to 92 without using catform at all. Just ran around and twohitted everything with trash. Would be ridiculous if it goes live that way. Altough i would love to switch to bearform in order to optimize my damage but to get a tiny bit more damage so i am don't be forced to use it when i got my lazy days. ;)

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