WoD Beta General Discussion

Face-rippin fun.

Moderator: Forum Administrators

Post Reply
teddabear
Revered
Posts: 346
Joined: Tue Dec 25, 2012 6:56 am

Re: Alpha Testing

Post by teddabear » Tue Jul 01, 2014 9:08 am

Tinderhoof wrote: •Ferocious Bite now has double the normal chance to critically strike against bleeding targets (instead of having an additional 25% chance to critically strike).
I am close to 100% chance to crit with FB now and it still hits like a wet noodle. With the changes to crit it appears unlikely FB crit chance will ever reach that high in WoD. How is this better?
teddabear wrote:If Bloody Talons was too strong just have Rake hit 2 targets.
Tinderhoof wrote:On top of this being to OP, it was also mindless.
How do you know it would be OP? Compared to what? On which bosses? If Havoc isn't OP it seems extremely unlikely this would be OP.
Tinderhoof wrote:You remove a button from our rotation and combine it with another.
Huh?
Tinderhoof wrote: That isn't good gameplay. Making it hit less targets wouldn't change that, and also there isn't a good way to pick which target to put both Rakes on. It's not compelling at all.
Do you really consider individually raking a group of adds compelling?

teddabear wrote:There is plenty of stuff they could fix if they would actually do the work. It shouldn't be that hard. They continuously remind us how much better their data is than what we have access to, so it should be child's play to figure out which areas need help.
Tinderhoof wrote: Not sure if you have been paying attention to anything but they have addressed out biggest shortcomings in HUGE ways. We can target swap for the first time EVER with out consequence. We have reasons to properly time our bleed refreshes to make the most use of their time. They are removing the bugged extension mechanic of Rip and making it longer. How are these not good changes? They are at the root of what we have been asking for YEARS. Even the people who hated SR all these years have an option. I think it's a bad one, but it's there. Sure I am not happy with some of the spells we lost, but I am super happy that they have already done a lot of work to make us better then we are now (which is pretty darn good).
We got combo points on the player because Rogues got it and they fixed a several years old bug. From what I've read very few Ferals are happy with the changes so far.

User avatar
Major_Bones
Posts: 7
Joined: Sat Jun 28, 2014 5:50 pm

Re: Alpha Testing

Post by Major_Bones » Tue Jul 01, 2014 2:52 pm

raffy wrote:I think it's bad design if our L100 talents mapped directly to different encounter mechanics -- what kind of choice is that? AoE fight uses the AoE talent, single-target fight uses single-target talent, burst fight uses burst talent, etc.

While many of you are considering Savagery as the "noob" choice, depending on how strong Bear thrash-weaving is (aggixx has been working on this), Savagery frees up a glyph slot for Master Shapeshifter, doesn't concern itself with SR opportunity cost (while in Bear), and allows for more damaging finishers. For AoE situations, Savagery + Bear Thrash + cleaving Rake/Rips onto as many targets as possible could be the high-skill cap rotation because the complexity comes from decision-making instead of mechanical execution. Another benefit is when you're pooling CP for a new target (like a burst mechanic) -- wut do if SR falls off? -- Savagery guarantees your combos can be dumped into a full-strength Rip, whereas Bloodtalons has both SR and "DoC" charge considerations. Lastly, situations like battlegrounds, dueling, questing, farming all synergize well with Savagery.

Lastly, don't forget about the combo-point change. This primarily helps us because Rogues already had multiple options in their toolkit. Just think of this as the invisible L90 talent. This change alone almost makes us a completely different beast. We've been a DoT spec relegated to single-target damage for 10 years and now we can wreck havoc on any target of our choosing. Although our DoTs require melee range for application (except Moonfire), our mobility makes it less awkward. And while Bloodtalons = DoC, Bloodtalons + combo-point freedom is DoC 2.0 because we can run BT in multi-target situations and not worry about wasted CP and poor PS generation.
Thank you Raffy. You so eloquently put into words what I have been trying to say on the forums.

@Aggixx ah.... looks like you killed my fun before I even got to try it : (
(Smeld)

User avatar
Tinderhoof
Exalted
Posts: 2234
Joined: Mon May 24, 2010 10:21 pm

Re: Alpha Testing

Post by Tinderhoof » Tue Jul 01, 2014 6:27 pm

teddabear wrote:With the changes to crit it appears unlikely FB crit chance will ever reach that high in WoD. How is this better?
You just answered your own question? If we aren't going to reach 50% crit I think 50% crit on FB is a good thing? Also the FB perk: FB does 20% more damage?
teddabear wrote:How do you know it would be OP? Compared to what? On which bosses? If Havoc isn't OP it seems extremely unlikely this would be OP.
1. Why are you asking about fights? Are you trying to compare WoD talents to MoP fights? Doesn't work.
2. Compared to everything in t100.
3. You roll a 35 energy ability and a 50 energy ability that hits all targets for just 50 energy. Considering Rake does a HUGE chunk of our damage, and how potent Rake spreading is now, putting it on every target with 1 50 energy ability with no cooldown? That is OP.
4. Havoc is nothing like Bloody Thrash was. At max you can have 3 additional targets (glyphed) and you still have to spend 3 GCD's to put it on your 3 additional targets.
5. Also have you seen Warlock damage this expansion? You want to tell me they aren't OP on multi target fights and keep a straight face?
teddabear wrote:Huh?
Because Thrash has the same duration as Rake why would you need to use Rake anymore?
teddabear wrote:Do you really consider individually raking a group of adds compelling?
You bet I do. That means you are actually managing your resources and actively looking for the trade off of swapping targets and spending energy. Do it to much and you don't have enough energy. Don't do it enough and you lose damage. Way better then mindlessly hitting the same button regardless of single target or aoe.
teddabear wrote:We got combo points on the player because Rogues got it and they fixed a several years old bug. From what I've read very few Ferals are happy with the changes so far.
What people are annoyed by is the ability pruning which does not affect our damage rotation or our output. The other complaint is not interesting enough talents. Prior to the second round of cuts there were NO complaints. With a new play style we have something new and compelling.

User avatar
aggixx
Exalted
Posts: 2292
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2011 7:49 pm
Contact:

Re: Alpha Testing

Post by aggixx » Wed Jul 02, 2014 5:46 am

Athen wrote:Bear trash looks so strong that 5% sounds quite low. The initial hit is more than twice as strong than shred and the trash dot is pretty close to rip. (note that you can buff bear trash with doc aka bloodtalon)
Is it possible that you can show the rotation you are using with catus? Maybe it is better to waste some energy and just stand in bearform longer and spam trash. Just go cat for refreshing dots quickly.
It's not Catus, it's SimulationCraft. I'm keeping the class module relatively up to date with all my rotation changes as I make them so you can find the most up to date profile here. You can download and compile the wod branch of SimulationCraft if you want to toy with it yourself, its all there. Trust me when I say I've tried plenty to get higher DPS figures out of it; I'd like to think I'm fairly thorough when it comes to that. But by all means if you're willing to take the time to mess with it feel free, I'd love to hear if you come up with anything :)
teddabear wrote:I am close to 100% chance to crit with FB now and it still hits like a wet noodle. With the changes to crit it appears unlikely FB crit chance will ever reach that high in WoD. How is this better?
If you stack crit (which is certainly not unlikely to be viable) I'm positive you'll be able to achieve higher FB crit chance then you can on live. In 630 blue gear my SimC profile has something like a 73% crit rate on FBs. Also, our abilities aren't tuned yet, some of our skills just hit like a wet noodle as a consequence. Thrash and Swipe in particular do stupidly low amounts of damage which is why they've been violently shoved into the backseat by Bear Thrash and multi-Rake on anything but an absurd number of targets.
Major_Bones wrote:@Aggixx ah.... looks like you killed my fun before I even got to try it : (
(Smeld)
Unfortunately for you the removal of your fun was a necessary evil. :lol:
ImageImage

ShmooDude
Exalted
Posts: 1080
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2011 5:51 pm

Re: Alpha Testing

Post by ShmooDude » Wed Jul 02, 2014 7:59 pm

aggixx wrote: Also, our abilities aren't tuned yet, some of our skills just hit like a wet noodle as a consequence.
I'll say, at level 90/91 on the beta, bear thrash is by far my hardest hitting ability, which is kinda funny (initial hit is like 50% harder than shred or some such nonsense)

User avatar
Kraineth
Revered
Posts: 331
Joined: Sun Apr 07, 2013 4:26 am
Contact:

Re: Alpha Testing

Post by Kraineth » Wed Jul 02, 2014 9:00 pm

Looks like the new build has the removed Rip extensions and added a baseline duration of 24 seconds, yay!

User avatar
Major_Bones
Posts: 7
Joined: Sat Jun 28, 2014 5:50 pm

Re: Alpha Testing

Post by Major_Bones » Wed Jul 02, 2014 9:11 pm

Thats good to hear! Especially if LI becomes a good talent, it'll ease juggling of the three dots. That'll be a big boon in multi-dot fights where we wont "lose" ticks from not staying on a target. Nice for pvp to keep pressure going during CC and such.

Also, Good news everyone! I've got my name on the Beta list. Don't know which wave I'll get it, but soon.... ; )

User avatar
Tinderhoof
Exalted
Posts: 2234
Joined: Mon May 24, 2010 10:21 pm

Re: Alpha Testing

Post by Tinderhoof » Wed Jul 02, 2014 10:11 pm

Still no kitty moonfire spell.

User avatar
Kraineth
Revered
Posts: 331
Joined: Sun Apr 07, 2013 4:26 am
Contact:

Re: Alpha Testing

Post by Kraineth » Wed Jul 02, 2014 10:15 pm

SR/TF are still not snapshotting as well, clearcasting was fixed though, but still being consumed by rejuv/ht, hopefully unintentional.

User avatar
Tinderhoof
Exalted
Posts: 2234
Joined: Mon May 24, 2010 10:21 pm

Re: Alpha Testing

Post by Tinderhoof » Wed Jul 02, 2014 10:23 pm

Was just posting that.
- Rake and Shred from stealth is still acting like a finisher and is consuming all combo points if you have any.
EDIT
It looks like neither Rake or Shred grant any combo points when used from stealth even if you have no combo points.

User avatar
Major_Bones
Posts: 7
Joined: Sat Jun 28, 2014 5:50 pm

Re: Alpha Testing

Post by Major_Bones » Wed Jul 02, 2014 10:27 pm

Damn, I was hoping to see what LI could do.
Shouldn't TF not snapshotting be a bug? Celestalon said it was intended to. SR could be intended though. I hope not, but you never know. PvE maybe not the end of the world cause we should have it up 100%. PvP is troublesome, with non-trivial time out of form for healing and CC now.

User avatar
Tinderhoof
Exalted
Posts: 2234
Joined: Mon May 24, 2010 10:21 pm

Re: Alpha Testing

Post by Tinderhoof » Wed Jul 02, 2014 10:29 pm

It is a bug. Celestalon said it was going to be fixed a week or so ago.

User avatar
Kraineth
Revered
Posts: 331
Joined: Sun Apr 07, 2013 4:26 am
Contact:

Re: Alpha Testing

Post by Kraineth » Wed Jul 02, 2014 11:15 pm

Major_Bones wrote:Damn, I was hoping to see what LI could do.
Shouldn't TF not snapshotting be a bug? Celestalon said it was intended to. SR could be intended though. I hope not, but you never know. PvE maybe not the end of the world cause we should have it up 100%. PvP is troublesome, with non-trivial time out of form for healing and CC now.
SR was intended to not snapshot at first, but feedback changed their minds, probably just not high on the list, like shadow priests not getting anything for 2 builds.


Also as a side-note to anyone else in Beta, what are your thoughts on the pandemic 130% duration changes. Starting to feel sort of strange to remember all of these random refresh times.

Specifically:
Rip- Anywhere within last 7.2 seconds
Rake+Thrash- Anywhere within last 4.5 seconds
SR- Anywhere within last 12.6 seconds


I feel like remembering all of these counters the fact that it was done to make deciding when to refresh dots a bit easier. Just a small blurb, i'll probably make a post on bnet about it soon, running my weekly ToT right now for dat TF rune >_>

Not really sure what can be done about it though, I guess maybe some timers that I set to change color when they are within those times would make it easier, but I don't feel like it is an adequate solution to just handle it via addons, which is why they removed snapshotting in the first place

User avatar
Major_Bones
Posts: 7
Joined: Sat Jun 28, 2014 5:50 pm

Re: Alpha Testing

Post by Major_Bones » Thu Jul 03, 2014 12:52 am

The general idea is definitely good. Since I use Badkitty, I can adjust the warning Icon times to match accordingly. As far as the addon thing, idk. I don't think the game play can be truly efficient without some kind of addon interaction. Timer addons and such have never bothered me too much. They're *almost* necessary for good feral play. The basic skill in feral play has always been the ability to juggle the timers on our buff/debuffs with our limited resources. Timer addons don't do it for us, we still have to make the call. They just provide a more digestible information view, that's all.

At least it's not a script that tells us when to hit a button ; )

User avatar
Rayen
Honored
Posts: 109
Joined: Wed Aug 21, 2013 11:00 am

Re: Alpha Testing

Post by Rayen » Thu Jul 03, 2014 3:15 am

Shut the front door-how about this quality of life change? Rip is now auto "extended" to it's full duration?

Rip (Feral) Finishing move that causes Bleed damage over 16 sec. 24 sec. Damage increases per combo point: 1 point : [ 230% of AP ] damage 2 points: [ 380% of AP ] damage 3 points: [ 530.1% of AP ] damage 4 points: [ 680.1% of AP ] damage 5 points: [ 830.2% of AP ] damage Shred extends the duration of your Rip by 2 sec, up to a maximum of 6 sec.
Image

User avatar
Tinderhoof
Exalted
Posts: 2234
Joined: Mon May 24, 2010 10:21 pm

Re: Alpha Testing

Post by Tinderhoof » Thu Jul 03, 2014 3:39 am

Ya Kraineth asked Celestalon on twitter last week about it and they announced it was going away.

User avatar
aggixx
Exalted
Posts: 2292
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2011 7:49 pm
Contact:

Re: Alpha Testing

Post by aggixx » Thu Jul 03, 2014 6:49 pm

Kraineth wrote: SR- Anywhere within last 12.6 seconds
Unless they changed it, it's only 12.6 seconds if you have 5 combo points; the amount of duration remaining that is affected by Pandemic is based on the duration of the new roar, so the refresh threshold is 3.6+1.8*combo_points.
ImageImage

User avatar
Kraineth
Revered
Posts: 331
Joined: Sun Apr 07, 2013 4:26 am
Contact:

Re: Alpha Testing

Post by Kraineth » Thu Jul 03, 2014 10:46 pm

aggixx wrote:
Kraineth wrote: SR- Anywhere within last 12.6 seconds
Unless they changed it, it's only 12.6 seconds if you have 5 combo points; the amount of duration remaining that is affected by Pandemic is based on the duration of the new roar, so the refresh threshold is 3.6+1.8*combo_points.
Yea it was just assuming always at 5cps
Rayen wrote:Shut the front door-how about this quality of life change? Rip is now auto "extended" to it's full duration?

Rip (Feral) Finishing move that causes Bleed damage over 16 sec. 24 sec. Damage increases per combo point: 1 point : [ 230% of AP ] damage 2 points: [ 380% of AP ] damage 3 points: [ 530.1% of AP ] damage 4 points: [ 680.1% of AP ] damage 5 points: [ 830.2% of AP ] damage Shred extends the duration of your Rip by 2 sec, up to a maximum of 6 sec.
We actually gain an extra tick from the change as well, but with the current extension issues on live we could get up to 5 extra ticks instead of 3, so they added 4 ticks to the base duration to just split it down the middle

User avatar
Kraineth
Revered
Posts: 331
Joined: Sun Apr 07, 2013 4:26 am
Contact:

Re: Alpha Testing

Post by Kraineth » Sat Jul 05, 2014 6:19 am

There's currently a bug with Bloody Talons, rake is consuming 2 stacks of the buff instead of one.

I'm almost certain now that for whatever reason rake is firing off 2 different spells, it is still granting 54 seconds of SR with the glyph while Shred only grants 42. Make sure you guys are making bug-reports in-game so we can get these kinds of things fixed.

User avatar
aggixx
Exalted
Posts: 2292
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2011 7:49 pm
Contact:

Re: Alpha Testing

Post by aggixx » Sat Jul 05, 2014 2:51 pm

Heh, that's funny: I had a similar issue in SimC for a bit. Yes you're correct that Rake casts two spells. When they implemented Bloody Thrash they split Rake into two components: a direct damage spell (this is what you cast when you cast Rake) and a 2nd spell that applies the DoT that is triggered by the first, that way Thrash could cast the second spell against all the targets it hit without dealing direct damage or applying a different distinct application of Rake.

Sounds like they either need to flag the periodic spell as a proc so it can't trigger those things, or merge it back like it is on live. I suppose that means we may get some vague insight if they plan for a Bloody Thrash-like mechanic to potentially return in the future.
ImageImage

imverykind
Posts: 12
Joined: Thu Oct 24, 2013 12:56 pm

Re: Alpha Testing

Post by imverykind » Sun Jul 06, 2014 5:16 pm

Are you, like me, disappointed in the Lv. 100 talents? BT is a recycled talent, Moonfire too and Savagery just makes SI passive. There is not much "flavor" skill imho. When i look at other classes, i.e. Death from above (Rogue), they gain great spells but we have very similar looking skills. Symbiosis is gone, Incarnation is short if choosed and Moonfire is not appealing at all. I know we are Druids but i always thought of Ferals as the specc which goes physical instead of "casting" skills like MF. Glowing paws and then MF on the target is just not right. It looks like we only got our mechanics finetuned in this expansion, or did i miss something?

hullaballoonatic
Posts: 48
Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2014 2:21 am

Re: Alpha Testing

Post by hullaballoonatic » Mon Jul 07, 2014 12:23 pm

Yeah, the level 100 talents are kind of whatever, but they're functional. I predicted precisely this talent tier awhile ago, but suggested it would best be in t45, where these kind of rotation-amending talents would best fit into the curve of learning how to damage as the spec, and t100 should be more exciting stuff. Unfortunately, I couldn't really think of more exciting stuff. One of the ideas was essentially cps stacking on the player, and that became baseline. Another was another snapshotting talent, which will never happen. Yeah, all-in-all, I'm not that disappointed.

Dysheki
Revered
Posts: 410
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2011 10:41 am

Re: Alpha Testing

Post by Dysheki » Mon Jul 07, 2014 7:04 pm

teddabear wrote:Do you really consider individually raking a group of adds compelling?
I think a fair comparison is to look at Blade Flurry. Bloody Talons might have been slightly less mindless than Blade Flurry because you would at least have to pay attention to the duration remaining on your rake (assuming it copied the duration remaining, not sure how it was supposed to work) but it's still really similar.

And when I played combat on my rogue cleaving was never fun or engaging with Blade Flurry.

However, I don't like the 'too OP' excuse for getting rid of Bloody Talons either; it would take a little coding but you could easily put an AoE cap on it by making the rake ticks do less damage based on how many targets it spreads too. (honestly imo all AoE should have some kind of cap, not some do and some don't - they never got this under control)

User avatar
Cantor (Shredable)
Honored
Posts: 77
Joined: Fri Dec 06, 2013 9:34 am

Re: Alpha Testing

Post by Cantor (Shredable) » Mon Jul 07, 2014 7:45 pm

I agree that our level 100 talents are boring, and a fairly awkward fit at that particular talent row; I think hullaballoonatic has it partially right when he says that rotation-altering abilities should probably be slightly earlier on - I am particularly concerned about Savagery, which is going to be much more helpful while levelling, considering that we don't have a glyph like Deadly Momentum for Rogues to auto-refresh SR when we kill something; in addition, what's the purpose of having someone level 100 levels WITH Savage Roar, when it is arguably more difficult to maintain on mobs that die quickly, and then be able to forget about it as soon as they hit the maximum level? As Tinder has mentioned several times, the talent is a real honeytrap for new players, and I don't personally feel it has any place in the tree.

Now, seeing as I don't want to lose SR, I'm left with BT/DoC and LI to choose between; I don't LOVE the DoC mechanic on live, but am fairly comfortable with it, and given that the PS buff duration is being increased by 50% (from 8 seconds to 12) it should be much easier to manage. I'm waiting eagerly to see how LI turns out as well, but do still think that our entire level 100 talent row could have had a bit more thought put into it, as none of the options are new in any fashion, and are by no means exciting. Still trying to get my PC to actually download the beta client so I can run some testing, but it keeps getting stuck at 0% at the moment and not even creating the beta folder, so there's a bit of work still to do there.

User avatar
Annalese
Posts: 13
Joined: Mon May 16, 2011 7:47 pm

Re: Alpha Testing

Post by Annalese » Mon Jul 07, 2014 8:27 pm

Has anyone made a premade 100 feral on Mekkatorque yet? I made one to test out the 100 talents (since I wasn't in the alpha when 100 talents were unlocked at 92).

One bug I've encountered while messing on testing dummies with Blood Talons: rake is eating both stacks of the "new" DoC buff - none of the other spells do. Blood Talons also work with Bear Mangle and Bear Thrash while still in cat spec (is this intended?)

Edit: Pawkets to the rescue --
Its a bug with Rake, not Bloodtalons. Rake on beta actually consists of two spells, and the second isn't flagged appropriately so triggers all effects a second time. So executing Rake will consume two Bloodtalons, trigger Glyph of Savage Roar twice (which is why with another bug it consumes almost all of your energy), give you two chances to proc trinkets, etc.

Post Reply