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Whitepaw
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Re: Alpha Testing

Post by Whitepaw » Tue Jul 08, 2014 6:27 am

I agree that some of our level 100 talents are not "new, fresh and exciting".

However, if we look at it from a gameplay and rotational perspective, it starts to look exciting in my opinion. If we start with Savagery, it will let us:
Aggixx was doing some simc stuff with Bear Thrash the other day so he has the data. I've been curious but haven't got that far with Catus2. There will always be Bear Thrash temptations with the amount of idle time we have during AoE situations. Unless the ability does MoP Moonfire-grade damage, weaving a Bear Thrash will be worth something.

But mostly, I just meant that passive SR gives you more freedom to use Bear/caster w/o paying a tax. Bear Thrash was the first thing I thought of :)
I'm not talking about how Bear Thrash will now rule WoW - 'cause that can be nerfed. But the point of Savagery giving us the freedom to do other stuff is important to me. And that will be a potentially exciting change in how I play my Feral. Couple that with new combo points + Rip + superior mobility and the Feral is a completely different beast out of the box.

Then we have Moonfire Cat. We've asked for the ability to shoot lazers for years - and now we can, just w/o the hassle of cancelling form. Oh, it'll now also do some actual damage. Not only does this change our rotation, but it gives us the ability to do ranged damage in cat form. At the same time, we get to use an iconic druid ability. I don't really see the problem with this ability tbh. With the new combo points, we can even multi-dot without losing the points!

BT is the least exciting in my opinion. The beauty is that a lot of other people is going to love it! This option is as close as Blizzard is going to let us get back snapshotting - Ferals with BT can snapshot off BT and TF. I think it restricts me in unknown fights and when we have more than one target - others are going to love it because they can use it to pump out more dps in known fights with only one target. To each his own.

My point is that all three talents actually change the gameplay and dps rotation for the Feral - Savagery might even prove to be the most versatile in that regard, we simply don't know yet as it depends so much on the encounters, how well other druid abilities will perform and how the pvp metagame will develop.

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Ekthelion
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Re: Alpha Testing

Post by Ekthelion » Tue Jul 08, 2014 9:39 am

Cantor (Shredable) wrote:Still trying to get my PC to actually download the beta client so I can run some testing, but it keeps getting stuck at 0% at the moment and not even creating the beta folder, so there's a bit of work still to do there.
I don't know the region you are coming from but what worked for me was just changing the language of beta to English (US) and let it download in the background (it was always crashing at 0%, no matter what shennanigans I have used).
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ShmooDude
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Re: Alpha Testing

Post by ShmooDude » Tue Jul 08, 2014 7:30 pm

One weird thing about the new way Rake and Shred function is that during incarnation, Rake might out damage Shred. Rake certainly hits harder in terms of raw damage (has 100% increased damage compared to 35%), but this doesn't take into account Shred's increased crit chance (double).

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aggixx
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Re: Alpha Testing

Post by aggixx » Wed Jul 09, 2014 4:45 am

When you account for the crit chance they're pretty close. Expect the Rake perk to be nerfed though, 100% is kind of ridiculous.
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Kraineth
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Re: Alpha Testing

Post by Kraineth » Wed Jul 09, 2014 6:45 pm

New datamined feral 2-piece T17
Item - Druid T17 Feral 2P Bonus - Dealing bleed damage generates 3 Energy.
I genuinely dislike this new bonus, I hate the idea behind it.

It also looks like MF/Thrash/Rejuv/Roots/Hurricane were all given back to every spec, but I'll wait till the realms come online to make sure.

EDIT: Yep we got all of those spells back. LI is now working again as a result.
Last edited by Kraineth on Wed Jul 09, 2014 7:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Cantor (Shredable)
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Re: Alpha Testing

Post by Cantor (Shredable) » Wed Jul 09, 2014 7:19 pm

I also noticed that it appears the mentioned abilities were given back, but it could be a datamining error; like you, I'm waiting for the servers to come back up. The new 2p bonus has some reasonable bonuses to it - Berserk no longer desynchs with Incarnation, if anyone ever uses that for PvE; we'll be getting a fairly high energy return in multi-target fights with Rake tabbing, coupled with Thrash (note that it doesn't specify most recent application, or which bleeds); with Blizzard's apparent goal of pushing us back toward more direct-damage abilities, more energy means more Shreds, which means more damage.

Rake and Thrash tick 5 times over their 15s durations, for a total of 15 energy returned on a 35 & 50 energy spell (although the initial hit is also counted as Bleed damage, but we're unsure whether that will proc the 2p yet); Rip ticks 12 times over 24s, for 36 energy back from a 30 energy ability. It's not hugely powerful, but in AoE situations it will potentially be very helpful in giving us energy back to spam our expensive Swipes.

Edit: following what Sten's posted below re, Haste rating, I'm a little surprised that the stat is becoming less valuable for us when it's already our weakest secondary on Live, excluding RoRo; outside of Combat Rogues, do any leather-based agility classes favour the stat?
Last edited by Cantor (Shredable) on Wed Jul 09, 2014 7:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Stenhaldi
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Re: Alpha Testing

Post by Stenhaldi » Wed Jul 09, 2014 7:22 pm

Also, haste rating is now 20% less valuable (rating conversion changed from 1% per 80 rating -- which was similar, relatively, to live -- to 1% per 100 rating).

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Stenhaldi
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Re: Alpha Testing

Post by Stenhaldi » Wed Jul 09, 2014 7:34 pm

Cat form moonfire indeed uses spell 155625 and actually manages to do less damage than caster form moonfire on a level 660 premade.

Edit: still more damage per tick, I guess. Wonder if they'll change cat form moonfire to last 20s like caster form moonfire now does.

Dysheki
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Re: Alpha Testing

Post by Dysheki » Wed Jul 09, 2014 7:53 pm

Kraineth wrote:New datamined feral 2-piece T17
Item - Druid T17 Feral 2P Bonus - Dealing bleed damage generates 3 Energy.
I genuinely dislike this new bonus, I hate the idea behind it.
I'm fine with it. It helps deal with the complaint that feral plays very slow early in the expansion with low energy regen and crit levels.

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raffy
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Re: Alpha Testing

Post by raffy » Wed Jul 09, 2014 8:23 pm

The prior 2pc bonus was weak, whereas this bonus depends on how much we can abuse it. Rake/Rip/Thrash on one target give 3/3 + 3/2 + 3/3 = 3.5 energy/sec. Add in Bear Thrash and a few more targets and it's way overpowered. Venom Zest (L100 Rogue) caps out at 3 targets. Maybe there's an ICD.
Edit: misread Rogue talent

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Re: Alpha Testing

Post by Dysheki » Wed Jul 09, 2014 8:56 pm

There are plenty of ways to balance something so it's not OP. ICDs, limiting it to certain bleeds, etc.

I'm just saying I like the underlying idea of it because it will help with early expansion slow play.

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Tinderhoof
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Re: Alpha Testing

Post by Tinderhoof » Thu Jul 10, 2014 2:00 am

Stenhaldi wrote:Cat form moonfire indeed uses spell 155625 and actually manages to do less damage than caster form moonfire on a level 660 premade.

Edit: still more damage per tick, I guess. Wonder if they'll change cat form moonfire to last 20s like caster form moonfire now does.
I took off my proc trinket and I never saw the caster moonfire hit harder on the first hit or any tick then the Feral Version. Though it isn't very far apart in damage yet.

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Tinderhoof
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Re: Alpha Testing

Post by Tinderhoof » Thu Jul 10, 2014 2:06 am

Known issues.
- Snapshotting is still not happening with SR and TF.
- SR does not modify Moonfire (expected).
- Abilities from stealth consume combo points and do not give them.
- SR is still gaining pandemic benefit from stealth (glyph).

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Stenhaldi
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Re: Alpha Testing

Post by Stenhaldi » Thu Jul 10, 2014 4:45 am

Tinderhoof wrote:I took off my proc trinket and I never saw the caster moonfire hit harder on the first hit or any tick then the Feral Version. Though it isn't very far apart in damage yet.
Yeah, cat version does slightly more damage per tick but lasts shorter.
Last edited by Stenhaldi on Thu Jul 10, 2014 7:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

Zstriker
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Re: Alpha Testing

Post by Zstriker » Thu Jul 10, 2014 6:49 am

Stenhaldi wrote:Cat form moonfire indeed uses spell 155625 and actually manages to do less damage than caster form moonfire on a level 660 premade.

Edit: still more damage per tick, I guess. Wonder if they'll change cat form moonfire to last 20s like caster form moonfire now does.
hit's almost same like a trash, like another thing to put in during clearcasting procs

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Major_Bones
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Re: Alpha Testing

Post by Major_Bones » Thu Jul 10, 2014 8:45 am

I guess the real question on everyone's mind is, will the DPE for MF significantly out perform a Shred after the final tuning pass. If it doesn't, then the talent is basically pointless other than some ranged utility. I hope all three end up doing well. There's nothing worse than knowing one of your talents is garbage.

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Re: Alpha Testing

Post by hullaballoonatic » Thu Jul 10, 2014 9:24 am

Anyone else worried that the return of hurricane opens up HotW as the only dps boosting talent of the 90 tier? Why even give that back to us? I just don't see the point. Since when were feral druids sitting around casting hurricane trying to pry people out of stealth?

Why give us moonfire back instead of just putting all its utility into fearie fire? (stops flag caps, tags)

Glad to see Entangling Roots back. Is it too much to ask for it to be put back into Predatory Swiftness?

I don't mind the new set bonus. It seems like blizzard wants to help normalize our rotation over the course of the expansion instead of us feeling energy starved with lower haste values in the beginning.

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Re: Alpha Testing

Post by Dandeleon » Thu Jul 10, 2014 9:51 am

Can multistrikes from bleed damage proc 2p bonus ? Because multistrike sucks now for feral.

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Re: Alpha Testing

Post by ShmooDude » Thu Jul 10, 2014 12:09 pm

Dandeleon wrote:Can multistrikes from bleed damage proc 2p bonus ? Because multistrike sucks now for feral.
Multistrike procs nothing unless explicitly stated somewhere. Also, its too early to know whether it sucks or not as damage is not tuned.

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Tinderhoof
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Re: Alpha Testing

Post by Tinderhoof » Thu Jul 10, 2014 1:07 pm

hullaballoonatic wrote:Anyone else worried that the return of hurricane opens up HotW as the only dps boosting talent of the 90 tier? Why even give that back to us? I just don't see the point. Since when were feral druids sitting around casting hurricane trying to pry people out of stealth?
Looking at the HotW tooltip changes got me thinking last night. They changed the text indicating it only boosts nature spells. Based on that I checked and sure enough the caster moonfire is boosted by HotW now (cat moonfire is unaffected). Both it an Wrath hit like a truck while under HotW. I have no idea how long this will last considering despite being told HotW was all crazy Wrath spam for the first few weeks. I don't see it staying around though. I haven't had a chance to test out how good Bear Form is now, but it might actually survive now.

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aggixx
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Re: Alpha Testing

Post by aggixx » Fri Jul 11, 2014 9:55 am

Major_Bones wrote:I guess the real question on everyone's mind is, will the DPE for MF significantly out perform a Shred after the final tuning pass. If it doesn't, then the talent is basically pointless other than some ranged utility. I hope all three end up doing well. There's nothing worse than knowing one of your talents is garbage.
We've asked before and they stated their intent is for sustaining the DoT to be DPS gain, and not just on single target. If it ends up being just ranged utility then they've massively failed their goal.
hullaballoonatic wrote:Anyone else worried that the return of hurricane opens up HotW as the only dps boosting talent of the 90 tier? Why even give that back to us? I just don't see the point. Since when were feral druids sitting around casting hurricane trying to pry people out of stealth?
I'm kind of torn on this. On one hand, I think its kind of cool if our thing for a few of the fights in the tier is to use Hurricane or Wrath spam as a DPS cooldown; you are trading some of your raid utility away to do that so I don't think that's unreasonable. On the other hand, having a spellpower weapon making the talent vastly more effective is (still) incredibly dumb, and if they don't actually put some small amount of effort in balancing it for feral then things can get pretty out of hand (or the polar opposite: entirely useless).
hullaballoonatic wrote:Why give us moonfire back instead of just putting all its utility into fearie fire? (stops flag caps, tags)
Because it would be annoying if our ranged damage spell had a cooldown, and they could remove the cooldown but if it did damage it would need a energy cost or you would just spam it during free globals. They could make the energy cost low, like 10, to prevent that but then maybe less informed players would be confused as to why the spell did crap for damage what its purpose was.

It is kind of awkward though that we still have Faerie Fire and the entirety of what it does (aside from tagging) is keep things from stealthing.

Edit: I think it would be pretty cool if they removed the cooldown on Feral Faerie Fire and then made the spell deal an "invisible" 1 damage to the target, then they could say "This spell is considered a damage-dealing spell for the purpose of effects that require it." or something.
Zstriker wrote:hit's almost same like a trash, like another thing to put in during clearcasting procs
Thrash doesn't hit hard enough to justify using Clearcasting procs on it on beta. If Lunar Inspiration cost 50 energy you wouldn't even use it all :P
ShmooDude wrote:Multistrike procs nothing unless explicitly stated somewhere. Also, its too early to know whether it sucks or not as damage is not tuned.
Basically this, although it will "proc" the T17 4P, but thats by design more or less. Multistrike really isn't that bad though; making the assumption that a stat is bad just because it has no interaction with our spec is really something you shouldn't do.
Tinderhoof wrote:They changed the text indicating it only boosts nature spells.
HotW never increased just nature damage, it's always been all spell damage, but we can't use moonfire still for the same reason we couldn't before: Nurturing Instinct still only grants nature spellpower.
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Stenhaldi
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Re: Alpha Testing

Post by Stenhaldi » Fri Jul 11, 2014 4:09 pm

Extremely minor complaint about faerie fire: why does it still last 5 minutes? It's 40 seconds (?) against players, which is the only situation where you care about its duration.

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Cetlysm
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Re: Alpha Testing

Post by Cetlysm » Fri Jul 11, 2014 11:25 pm

Hey quick question, you guys remember that server change they were gonna do to the way the packets work or whatever.
Won't that fix the primal fury proc delay?
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Stenhaldi
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Re: Alpha Testing

Post by Stenhaldi » Sat Jul 12, 2014 12:40 am

Not sure why the delay existed in the first place (as assassination rogues have the same mechanic with no delay), but regardless, I'm not observing any delay on beta.

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aggixx
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Re: Alpha Testing

Post by aggixx » Sat Jul 12, 2014 2:44 am

I'd say its hard to tell if there's a delay on beta since the vanilla combo point UI is so god awful. Perhaps you could tell from the combat log.
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