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Re: Alpha Testing

Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 7:44 am
by Felics
With snapshotting gone we will be doing more direct damage next xp. they have already increased FB scaling and this double crit change is just another way to make it scale better.
Also with the pandemic addition it will look like we will maintain buffed dots and SR while pooling energy. once we get procs this is where we try to fit in as many FBs as possible.
If i am wrong please tell me but i like this idea. Kindof an reverse of how it is now.

Re: Alpha Testing

Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 11:23 am
by hullaballoonatic
I am very happy that barkskin and might of ursoc are gone. I always thought that the number of different actives we have for mitigation was pretty excessive, and lack of might of ursoc makes renewal more tempting, although it does hurt us in terms of offtanking.

Removing lacerate is pretty silly, but maybe that wasn't intended, considering the removal of moonfire (unless they plan to have lunar inspiration give you a usable moonfire). I like the idea of them separating guardian and feral as much as possible, but I dislike the idea of substantially limiting our offtank potential. If hotw proves to be proficient enough at threat generation, then I think perhaps I won't have a problem with this.

Removal of Entangling Roots (this appears to be deliberate considering the change to predatory swiftness) is not a good idea in my opinion. Anything that promotes lateral thinking in a pvp situation I am all for. Feral druids in Burning Crusade up through the start of Cataclysm had an immense number of options in pvp that really differentiated good players from tunnelvisioners. Unfortunately, we are becoming more and more limited in pvp, and there's just not as much depth to the spec because of it. I think it would be reasonable to improve cyclone's range or make it castable in cat form (or merge those effects into the glyph).

Re: Alpha Testing

Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 12:03 pm
by Tinderhoof
The cuts are a mistake. They would never cut Barkskin even if its just for PVP reasons. Moonfire has to be back for LI. I am betting some one was tagging specs to spec's and forgot to add Feral back into that group.

Re: Alpha Testing

Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 1:19 pm
by ocedy
I agree, some of the missing abilities seem very strange and iirc they said they were in the middle of undertaking large changes that may not all have been reflected in the newly mined build. Some mined tooltips seem especially strange, for example the loss of energy loss while not in cat form or the loss of Physical Vulnerability on Faerie Fire, which would become a pretty narrow button in the case of feral.

Re: Alpha Testing

Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 1:59 pm
by hullaballoonatic
You're probably right, but I can conceive very reasonable explanations from a Blizzard perspective why they would want to remove all of these.
>lacerate unnecessary if hotw provides enough threat generation
>moonfire unnecessary if lunar inspiration gives you moonfire in its place
>removing entangling roots from predatory swiftness hints it's removed entirely
>barkskin and might of ursoc are redundant with SI

I won't say I agree with each, but Feral could do with a few more ability cuts.

Re: Alpha Testing

Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 2:26 pm
by Tinderhoof
hullaballoonatic wrote:>lacerate unnecessary if hotw provides enough threat generation
With Mangle on a 6 second cooldown (now buffed by Haste) the only other ability to use during HotW is Thrash. No reason to remove it.
hullaballoonatic wrote:>moonfire unnecessary if lunar inspiration gives you moonfire in its place
Core spell used from 1-10 leveling. They don't take away spells after you pick a spec. They just don't add them in.
hullaballoonatic wrote:>removing entangling roots from predatory swiftness hints it's removed entirely
Could go either way, but I think a PVP perspective would be needed.
>barkskin and might of ursoc are redundant with SI
They aren't redundant. It's a smaller cooldown on a shorter timer. Critical for PVP. Also Celestalon said Might of Ursoc was a valid Feral tool. You get a big buff but must give DPS up to use it.

The easiest way to see if this is a mistake is pull up the other specs and see if they lost abilities that are form specific like resto's having Shred, and Rip (which they are supposed too). I am at work so I can't do this right now, but Sten or Kraineth what to give this a try?

Re: Alpha Testing

Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 3:04 pm
by Kraineth
To be honest i'm not sure about Barkskin/MoU, the patch notes have them specifically designated as Guardian only.

But missing Hurricane in guardian/feral seems a bit off, as well as all specs but feral not having Rip or Swipe. Removing roots from feral/guardian seems weird as well, I can understand not having Pred.Swiftness make it instant. Balance are also missing Nature's swiftness as well.

Druid's in general don't really need more ability cuts, we already have form specific bars which alleviate a lot of the clutter.

I definitely think this is just a lot of unintended changes, I mean, Resto and Balance don't even have Thrash or Swipe, for HotW to be even remotely useable for those specs, they need something besides just mangle and FR/SD

Re: Alpha Testing

Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 3:05 pm
by Stenhaldi
Missed this last night, but we also lost hibernate and maul.

To clarify the situation with other specs:

Hibernate and nature's grasp are gone altogether.
Barkskin, might of ursoc, lacerate, and maul are guardian only (formerly all specs).
Rip is feral only (formerly feral and guardian).
Rake, swipe, and maim are feral only (formerly all specs).
Faerie fire is feral and guardian (formerly all specs).
Entangling roots, moonfire, and hurricane are resto and balance (formerly all specs).
Guardian lost rejuvenation.

Note that balance and resto no longer have any spammable move in bear form (since they never had thrash). Non-feral can still shred/bite in cat form but have no bleeds.

edit: add nature's grasp

Re: Alpha Testing

Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 3:08 pm
by Tinderhoof
Kraineth wrote:the patch notes have them specifically designated as Guardian only.
What patch notes? You mean the datamining?

About that Lore just posted up in regards to a Shaman weapon imbue question, but it seems to apply to a wider audience.
Please be aware that the currently active Alpha build was taken in the middle of a pretty big wave of class changes (for everyone, not just Shaman). We'll be getting a full update to the patch notes out as soon as possible once we've completed that round of changes.

Re: Alpha Testing

Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 3:12 pm
by Kraineth
Something else worth noting: With the new mana regen buff, Out of Combat you can spam HT and never run out, may change with higher haste levels, but a pretty nice change.

There was a post from Celestalon awhile back about wanting to cut down on downtime between pulls for all specs, this change seems like part of that goal, not having to drink after 3 HT casts or 3 rezzes is really nice.

Re: Alpha Testing

Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 3:14 pm
by Kraineth
Tinderhoof wrote:
Kraineth wrote:the patch notes have them specifically designated as Guardian only.
What patch notes? You mean the datamining?
yea that, I guess it still could be bugged

Re: Alpha Testing

Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 3:17 pm
by Tinderhoof
I saw the Datamined Barkskin you were talking about. That one had the Guardian only 30 second cooldown on it. I bet their spell is "special" and the rest of us still will get the 1 minute (might even be a different ID now). That could be it as well that they are starting to give different Spell ID's stuff based on Spec/Form abilities. If they just haven't added in the new versions that would explain the issue.

Re: Alpha Testing

Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 3:18 pm
by Kraineth
Stenhaldi wrote: Guardian lost rejuvenation.
HotW still says Rejuv can be cast while shifted for bear, I expect that is either a bug, or HotW is being changed for bear.

I guess we'll need to wait for the updated notes once they get a build with all of the new changes, I haven't looked at other classes, but this might be a new wave of removing button bloat. At the same time if all of this was intended, it feels like a bit too much being taken away from our specs.

Re: Alpha Testing

Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 4:41 pm
by hullaballoonatic
Hibernate is gone altogether.
Please be true.

Is Scare Beast gone, too?

Re: Alpha Testing

Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 4:47 pm
by Stenhaldi
Scare Beast is still in.

Re: Alpha Testing

Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 5:11 pm
by hullaballoonatic
Shame, but not awful. Hibernate being a part of Predatory Swiftness is horrible in live PvP. Either way, it appears that is removed.

Re: Alpha Testing

Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 5:23 pm
by raffy
I like that our mana regen is decoupled from LotP. On live, Ret Paladin mana is in a much better state than Feral. Being forced into melee for both PS procs and mana regen too kamakazi.

Re: Alpha Testing

Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 5:48 pm
by Tinderhoof
hullaballoonatic wrote:Shame, but not awful. Hibernate being a part of Predatory Swiftness is horrible in live PvP. Either way, it appears that is removed.
Why does it seem to be removed? It and lots of other abilities have vanished. Assuming it's gone before they release patch notes is jumping the gun.

Re: Alpha Testing

Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 5:59 pm
by hullaballoonatic
It was removed from Predatory Swiftness, it appears. The tooltip was deliberately changed to only Healing touch and Rebirth, meaning Hibernate, if still in, would need to be hardcast

Re: Alpha Testing

Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 6:53 pm
by Tinderhoof
Like Cyclone? With the de emphasis of CC this wouldn't surprise me at all. As we already have Mighty Bash as an option and the new Rake/Pounce the need for additional instant CC seems un needed. Doesn't mean Hibernate is gone yet.

Plus Datamined is Datamined. Countless times datamined info is missing or straight wrong. What we are seeing is also several builds behind. Wait for context before continually jumping to conclusions.

Re: Alpha Testing

Posted: Thu Jun 12, 2014 2:59 am
by Stenhaldi
Oops, I missed this change too: nature's grasp is also gone from all specs.

Re: Alpha Testing

Posted: Thu Jun 12, 2014 3:59 am
by Kraineth
Currently the 5% physical damage taken debuff is gone from Faerie Fire. Omen of Clarity procs are acting quite weird, Healing Touch seems to be the only thing that is consuming the buff, otherwise everything else is spammable for 0 energy/0 mana which is obviously a bug.Most likely an issue with the tagging of specific spells that consume it for Resto since as far as I know, things like Nourish don't use OoC procs to prevent waste.

Due to mastery/SR not snapshotting, the dot from bear thrash is benefiting from our mastery/SR as well, and is doing way more DoT damage than Cat Thrash while in cat form for the mastery benefit.

Note: All of these numbers are with SR cast for Cat Thrash, and no SR for Bear Thrash since SR will be changed to snapshot in a later build.


The difference is smaller on my premade 90, but on my 584 lvl 92 character with 98% mastery Cat Thrash is doing 556 damage per tick and Bear Thrash is doing 2093 damage per tick while shifted to cat form for the mastery bonus (530 damage in bear form) Now I have 98% mastery at 92, but I think something is wrong here, Bear Thrash is benefiting from mastery way too much, because Cat Thrash damage is scaling correctly with mastery here, doing roughly half damage while not in cat form.

But even with the mastery scaling being correct, Bear Thrash doing ~1,062 per tick is still considerably higher than what Cat Thrash is doing

For reference, on my premade toon:
Cat Thrash- 267 per tick
Bear Thrash- 800 per tick

Kind of a funny situation, i'm not too sure of a way to fix it since bear needs to have good thrash damage since it is the only AoE they have now, and Cat still needs Bear Thrash for HotW

Re: Alpha Testing

Posted: Thu Jun 12, 2014 5:43 am
by ShmooDude
Sounds to me like they need to change how our mastery works behind the scenes. They need to remove the "Requires Cat Form" and simply change the mastery to only affect cat form bleeds (Cat Thrash, Rake, Rip). At least that's how I'd expect it to be done.

Savage Roar is a little trickier if they decide not to snapshot it (last I saw they were undecided).

Re: Alpha Testing

Posted: Thu Jun 12, 2014 9:42 am
by hullaballoonatic
Nature's Grasp always felt mildly odd-man-out to me, but it of course has some great uses in pvp. If we were to keep entangling roots and its current interaction with PS, then I can see the removal of nature's grasp.

Either way, this is far too much stuff removed to be entirely intentional. Time will tell.

Re: Alpha Testing

Posted: Thu Jun 12, 2014 10:33 am
by Tremnen
SR is confirmed to snapshot on leaving cat form it just is not working that way currently on ~~live~~ alpha.