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Tinderhoof
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Re: Alpha Testing

Post by Tinderhoof » Thu Jun 12, 2014 10:40 am

ShmooDude wrote:Sounds to me like they need to change how our mastery works behind the scenes. They need to remove the "Requires Cat Form" and simply change the mastery to only affect cat form bleeds (Cat Thrash, Rake, Rip). At least that's how I'd expect it to be done.

Savage Roar is a little trickier if they decide not to snapshot it (last I saw they were undecided).
They are in the middle of what looks like making all the druid baseline spells into form specific ones. The reason so much has vanished is because those spells are attached to a spec's form now. The new versions haven't made it in for the rest of the spec's. Right now a level 1 character doesn't get Moonfire at all. You have to do nothing but wrath till lvl 10 when you can pick a spec.

Just be patient and wait for the remaining changes to make it to the Alpha.

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Re: Alpha Testing

Post by Stenhaldi » Fri Jun 13, 2014 5:51 pm

Stenhaldi wrote:Hibernate and nature's grasp are gone altogether.
Barkskin, might of ursoc, lacerate, and maul are guardian only (formerly all specs).
Rip is feral only (formerly feral and guardian).
Rake, swipe, and maim are feral only (formerly all specs).
Faerie fire is feral and guardian (formerly all specs).
Entangling roots, moonfire, and hurricane are resto and balance (formerly all specs).
Guardian lost rejuvenation.
All of these removals are deliberate: see alpha notes.

Still no mention of what happens to lunar inspiration.

Also, physical and magic vulnerability appear to be gone altogether (hence faerie fire losing that effect). We now provide a 3% versatility buff instead.

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Re: Alpha Testing

Post by Kraineth » Fri Jun 13, 2014 5:52 pm

Looks like everything was intended, I'm actually surprised about this.

This is more than just ability pruning, this is destroying a lot of druid flavor.

Just a short list of things I think are bad ideas:


1.Merging Travel forms, sometimes I want to be stag form in a flyable environment
2.losing moonfire, I use this quite a bit to pull quest mobs from range since FF does no damage so mobs will leash quicker
3.MoU/Barkskin gone for non-tanks, I love these smaller CD's
4. Maul/Lacerate gone for non-tanks, I'm just supposed to spam Thrash?
5. Rejuv gone for Guardian, what use is HotW for Bears then?
6. OoC applying to all druid spells, so if I cat rejuv a split second after an OoC proc I just wasted it?

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Re: Alpha Testing

Post by Anjuk » Fri Jun 13, 2014 8:10 pm

These changes are jaw dropping, and not in a good way. I rolled a druid in 2004 because I wanted to be able to do little bits of everything. What's left? Do I still need more than 5 or 6 keybinds?

I agree with Kraineth's list. In general, what I see here is a nerf of cross-role versatility. It's possible (but by no means obvious) that was necessary, but why does it need to involve removal of abilities? Why can't Guardian Barkskin and Lacerate be better/stronger than everyone else's? Druids get new bars per shapeshift form, and thus we don't have remotely the button bloat they seem worried about in other classes...

To be clear, removing Pounce and transferring some of its functionality to Rake is a fine change. Removing Hurricane makes me feel like a one-note melee dps rather than a DRUID. So sad...

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Re: Alpha Testing

Post by Tinderhoof » Fri Jun 13, 2014 8:23 pm

Man I was totally off here. Of course this drops right as I leave town.

Barkskin going away is very disappointing. I know we have some new flexibility with the reduced cool down on but I am still sad to see it go. I haven't had time to go over the other class changes. Did everyone else lose their small Dr cooldowns? Did resto keep iron bark or did that go too?

HotW seems to lack any real use given that bear form will only have 3 abilities and 2 on 6 second cooldowns. Is the idea to try and make it so simple?

Ooc being consumed by everything is straight bad. I don't want my already free Healing Touch, or my 5 energy (after refund) SR. That's just wasteful for no gain.

This feels so weird being that they have professed that 90 needs to be the hybrid tier when we are losing so many of this cross spec tools.

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Re: Alpha Testing

Post by Anjuk » Fri Jun 13, 2014 8:47 pm

This feels so weird being that they have professed that 90 needs to be the hybrid tier when we are losing so many of this cross spec tools.
Exactly. 90 is turning into the "why bother" tier. That's disappointing even if the same thing is happening to each class.

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Re: Alpha Testing

Post by Treeba » Fri Jun 13, 2014 9:15 pm

Sorry if this is obvious, but I haven't been following alpha that closely.

Are they changing Lunar Inspiration or are they just making it grant us the Moonfire ability?

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Re: Alpha Testing

Post by Stenhaldi » Fri Jun 13, 2014 9:33 pm

Treeba wrote:Are they changing Lunar Inspiration or are they just making it grant us the Moonfire ability?
Don't know what the intention is. When last I checked on alpha (Tuesday before the level 100 server went down), lunar inspiration did nothing -- moonfire was still unavailable. I imagine it was just missed.

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Re: Alpha Testing

Post by DomGF » Sat Jun 14, 2014 12:29 am

My first reaction to these changes its that they are ridiculous. I have always just sucked it up and played the game that Blizzard gives me, but that doesn't mean I cant speak up. But truly, i just think Barkskin gone is stupid. It has been one of our base abilities for so long and they just decide to take it off like that.

To make it simple, I agree with everything Kraineth mentioned. Why the hell merge up travel forms? It's not even a quality of life change, why attempt to fix something that is not broken?. I don't want to have to cast the ability 2 times just because I wanted stag in a flying area...

I am a bit ragey, but ya....Unless they somehow have all these changes figured out and it will work out and then surprise and makes me shut up. I am really not enjoying these last notes. They are straightening the class WAY too much. The fact we have no abilities to use on bear form on its own is just plain retarded. BUT, as its to be understood of it being alpha i don't expect that to stay that way. Wait and see I suppose.

EDIT: Tell you what, give ferals and guardians costumes while in forms and I wont even get mad that they are fudging it up. :P

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Re: Alpha Testing

Post by hullaballoonatic » Sat Jun 14, 2014 1:27 am

I am very happy about the removal of barkskin and might of ursoc. I am extremely not happy about the removal of Entangling Roots. I am extremely happy with the removal of hibernate and scare beast. I'm extremely confused with the removal of lacerate and moonfire (they didn't affect button bloat).

Also, if no one has noticed yet, but Feral has a complete lack of PvE CC, and it appears they have removed physical vulnerability entirely, but we do provide 3% versatility with motw.
Druid
Balance of Power has been removed. A new level-100 talent with the same name has been added.
Can someone with alpha explain this? Is this for Moonkins only or is this perhaps replacing Lunar Inspiration?

Offtopic, it appears blizzard is not happy with the active mana regeneration idea.

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Re: Alpha Testing

Post by Treeba » Sat Jun 14, 2014 3:58 am

hullaballoonatic wrote:I am very happy about the removal of barkskin and might of ursoc. I am extremely not happy about the removal of Entangling Roots. I am extremely happy with the removal of hibernate and scare beast. I'm extremely confused with the removal of lacerate and moonfire (they didn't affect button bloat).
This probably won't be a popular opinion, but at this point I feel like any sort of CC, interrupt, or cooldown (defensive or offensive) they remove from the game is a good change. There are just way way to many of all of these things. It's unfortunate they are killing some of our oldest abilities to do so, but I feel like it's a good change. Sacrifices must be made if we're ever going to get meaningful reductions in cooldown stacking and the CC arms race.

Barkskin was most likely doomed from the minute they gave us 2 70% DR shield walls. Even if they didn't do it for ability pruning it was likely going to be taken away (or SI nerfed) for pvp reasons.

They also have a history of way overdoing their buffs/nerfs(TO THE GROUND!!), so I'd expect some of the abilities to make it back into the game.

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Re: Alpha Testing

Post by ShmooDude » Sat Jun 14, 2014 11:55 am

Kraineth wrote:1.Merging Travel forms, sometimes I want to be stag form in a flyable environment
DomGF wrote:Why the hell merge up travel forms? It's not even a quality of life change, why attempt to fix something that is not broken?. I don't want to have to cast the ability 2 times just because I wanted stag in a flying area...
From the patch notes:
Glyph of the Stag now teaches the Druid a separate shapeshift ability, Stag Form. Stag Form will not switch between different Travel Form, and allows the Druid to act as a mount for other players.

I love the fact that these are being merged. With the ground version functioning at full ground mount speed as long as we're out of combat, this saves me a long macro which I believe is their intention.

As far as the rest, my 2 cents:
CC abilities - I'm fine with going as long as its balanced within the game as a whole.
Lacerate/Maul -No real reason to remove as they're only accessible in bear form.
Moonfire - Agree that its useful as a tagging ranged ability (FF in non-bear form doesn't tag)
Hurricane - Probably removed to prevent Ferals from wanting to HotW Hurricane in AoE situations (remember, this is supposed to be a DPS neutral tier now)
Rejuvenation - Doesn't really make much sense to me, if they wanted it not to be used in HotW they coulda simply removed it from the talent.
MoU/Barkskin - They seem to be cutting down on the number of redundant defensive cooldowns across the board (see DPS warriors losing shield wall). Only class I know of with 2 (not counting talents) defensive cooldowns now is DKs and since AMS doesn't work vs physical that's probably why they still have both (IBF only being 20% on a 3 min cd makes it pretty weak anyhow). As long as this is part of an across the board change, I'm fine with it.
OOC - Pretty much in agreement, I much prefer its current incarnation as its less prone to user error.

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Re: Alpha Testing

Post by Stenhaldi » Sat Jun 14, 2014 4:08 pm

ShmooDude wrote:Moonfire - Agree that its useful as a tagging ranged ability (FF in non-bear form doesn't tag)
While I haven't explicitly tested it, I've been using cat form faerie fire to tag things for most of Mists and haven't had a tag "stolen". Are you sure it doesn't tag?

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Re: Alpha Testing

Post by Kraineth » Sat Jun 14, 2014 4:47 pm

hullaballoonatic wrote:
Druid
Balance of Power has been removed. A new level-100 talent with the same name has been added.
Can someone with alpha explain this? Is this for Moonkins only or is this perhaps replacing Lunar Inspiration?
It is a Moonkin talent
ShmooDude wrote:
Kraineth wrote:1.Merging Travel forms, sometimes I want to be stag form in a flyable environment
DomGF wrote:Why the hell merge up travel forms? It's not even a quality of life change, why attempt to fix something that is not broken?. I don't want to have to cast the ability 2 times just because I wanted stag in a flying area...
From the patch notes:
Glyph of the Stag now teaches the Druid a separate shapeshift ability, Stag Form. Stag Form will not switch between different Travel Form, and allows the Druid to act as a mount for other players.

I love the fact that these are being merged. With the ground version functioning at full ground mount speed as long as we're out of combat, this saves me a long macro which I believe is their intention.
The macro works just fine, and I don't use it because I like binding all of those form individually.
Stenhaldi wrote:
ShmooDude wrote:Moonfire - Agree that its useful as a tagging ranged ability (FF in non-bear form doesn't tag)
While I haven't explicitly tested it, I've been using cat form faerie fire to tag things for most of Mists and haven't had a tag "stolen". Are you sure it doesn't tag?
FF definitely tags even when it doesn't do damage, I still want moonfire as a Druid and not just as a balance or resto druid.

Just feels like they want to further separate the specs of Hybrid classes, which is just a bad idea. If I wanted to play a pure dps class I would have rolled one.

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Re: Alpha Testing

Post by ShmooDude » Sat Jun 14, 2014 6:40 pm

Kraineth wrote: The macro works just fine, and I don't use it because I like binding all of those form individually.
I'm failing to see how the current setup is in any way better than the new auto-changing travel form with the option to have stag as a separate keybind? Mind elaborating for me? :)

As far as FF tagging, that must of changed at some point because it used to require a damaging event to tag a mob (used to also be that unless your DoT had an initial damage, it wouldn't tag till it ticked; though that might be as far back several expansions ago).

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Re: Alpha Testing

Post by Lynxx » Sat Jun 14, 2014 9:23 pm

Can't say I'm particularly thrilled about these changes. I am not understanding why Blizzard would take so many iconic quirks of being a druid away. I'm a druid. I shapeshift. I do it all. I should still have that "flavor" as it was mentioned before. It's what has kept me interested in the class for many years. I will always most likely be a druid, but I hope we can still retain that sense of the hybrid. Still I have faith that we will be just fine.

Dat travel form doe......why? Just seems silly.
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Re: Alpha Testing

Post by Tinderhoof » Sat Jun 14, 2014 11:47 pm

ShmooDude wrote:As far as FF tagging, that must of changed at some point because it used to require a damaging event to tag a mob (used to also be that unless your DoT had an initial damage, it wouldn't tag till it ticked; though that might be as far back several expansions ago).
They made that change early in the Cata beta.

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Re: Alpha Testing

Post by Kraineth » Sun Jun 15, 2014 12:37 am

ShmooDude wrote:
Kraineth wrote: The macro works just fine, and I don't use it because I like binding all of those form individually.
I'm failing to see how the current setup is in any way better than the new auto-changing travel form with the option to have stag as a separate keybind? Mind elaborating for me? :)

As far as FF tagging, that must of changed at some point because it used to require a damaging event to tag a mob (used to also be that unless your DoT had an initial damage, it wouldn't tag till it ticked; though that might be as far back several expansions ago).
It isn't an option to have a separate Travel form, it is a glyph that is required if you want a separate travel form. Not to mention that it is mutually exclusive with the 100% speed glyph AND the cheetah glyph, which I happen to be a fan of since Cheetah is much cooler to me than the new stag form.

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Re: Alpha Testing

Post by ShmooDude » Sun Jun 15, 2014 10:00 am

Kraineth wrote:
ShmooDude wrote:
Kraineth wrote: The macro works just fine, and I don't use it because I like binding all of those form individually.
I'm failing to see how the current setup is in any way better than the new auto-changing travel form with the option to have stag as a separate keybind? Mind elaborating for me? :)

As far as FF tagging, that must of changed at some point because it used to require a damaging event to tag a mob (used to also be that unless your DoT had an initial damage, it wouldn't tag till it ticked; though that might be as far back several expansions ago).
It isn't an option to have a separate Travel form, it is a glyph that is required if you want a separate travel form. Not to mention that it is mutually exclusive with the 100% speed glyph AND the cheetah glyph, which I happen to be a fan of since Cheetah is much cooler to me than the new stag form.
I think they ditched the 100% speed glyph and just integrated that innately as long as you are out of combat. Though I see your point about the rest (doesn't bother me personally, but I see now the difference it makes).

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Re: Alpha Testing

Post by hullaballoonatic » Sun Jun 15, 2014 10:58 am

I suppose Blizzard expects us to talent Mass Entanglement for our PvE CC needs. It's only a 30 second cooldown and I guess I can see that working.

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Re: Alpha Testing

Post by Kraineth » Mon Jun 16, 2014 6:55 pm

ShmooDude wrote: I think they ditched the 100% speed glyph and just integrated that innately as long as you are out of combat. Though I see your point about the rest (doesn't bother me personally, but I see now the difference it makes).
They didn't, the glyph for 100% speed is still in and is still exclusive with both Glyph of the Cheetah and Glyph of the Stag.
hullaballoonatic wrote:I suppose Blizzard expects us to talent Mass Entanglement for our PvE CC needs. It's only a 30 second cooldown and I guess I can see that working.
A 30 second CD soft CC that breaks on damage and is capped at 20 seconds of uptime is not even close to as useful as a spammable root that can have permanent uptime in PvE.

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Re: Alpha Testing

Post by ShmooDude » Tue Jun 17, 2014 12:40 pm

Kraineth wrote:
ShmooDude wrote: I think they ditched the 100% speed glyph and just integrated that innately as long as you are out of combat. Though I see your point about the rest (doesn't bother me personally, but I see now the difference it makes).
They didn't, the glyph for 100% speed is still in and is still exclusive with both Glyph of the Cheetah and Glyph of the Stag.
Coulda sworn I read that somewhere, but can't find any evidence. Would you feel better about it if this were the case?
Kraineth wrote:
hullaballoonatic wrote:I suppose Blizzard expects us to talent Mass Entanglement for our PvE CC needs. It's only a 30 second cooldown and I guess I can see that working.
A 30 second CD soft CC that breaks on damage and is capped at 20 seconds of uptime is not even close to as useful as a spammable root that can have permanent uptime in PvE.
I think they're going back a bit on the "everyone must have long duration CC" that they implemented in Cataclysm.

Remaining Long Duration CCs [Talented]
Mage - Polymorph
Hunter - Freezing Trap, [Wyrven Sting]
Rogue - Blind, Sap
Warlock - Banish, Fear, Seduction
Paladin - Turn Evil (wouldn't be surprised to see this go soon as well), [Repentance]
Shaman - Hex
Priest - Shackle Undead (wouldn't be surprised to see this go soon as well)
Warrior - None
Druid - None, [Mass Entanglement]

Might of missed some talents but that's how it is atm. As I said, I wouldn't be surprised if Turn Evil and Shackle Undead get cut as well, maybe Hex, but less likely I think with its long cooldown.

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Re: Alpha Testing

Post by Cetlysm » Wed Jun 18, 2014 10:12 pm

Survival Instincts no longer requires or forces the Druid into Cat or Bear Form, and is now available to all Druid specializations. Survival Instincts now reduces damage taken by 70% (up from 50%) with a 2-minute cooldown (down from 3 minutes), and can have up to 2 charges (up from 1 charge).
Now 20% less special!
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Re: Alpha Testing

Post by Tinderhoof » Wed Jun 18, 2014 10:34 pm

Cetlysm wrote: Now 20% less special!
Esplain?

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Re: Alpha Testing

Post by Treeba » Wed Jun 18, 2014 11:00 pm

Is SI useable while stunned in the alpha? That was a pretty important aspect of Barkskin that needs happen for SI if we're losing BS.

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