WoD Beta General Discussion

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Tremnen
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Re: WoD Beta General Discussion

Post by Tremnen » Wed Oct 08, 2014 1:58 pm

there are crafted weapons that will be normal tier gear ilvl that have random stat allocated. not sure how easy or hard they will be to craft but they will probbaly be very good if you can get a crit multistrike one for instance. Probably where I will look for a challenge mode weapon early on in the expansion.

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Kraineth
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Re: WoD Beta General Discussion

Post by Kraineth » Thu Oct 09, 2014 6:05 pm

I personally wouldn't recommend crafting the weapons from inscription. They only start at 630, so they are beaten by 5man gear if you farm for Warforged or Socket bonus.

Plus crafting the weapon costs 10 days of the Inscription CD,which is the same mats as 10 Darkmoon cards (the trinket is static agi with a crit proc, so really good for feral). And the upgrade item uses a minimum of 15 days worth of daily CD's, plus 15 savage blood, which is impossible to have with only one Garrison without buying them for a ton of gold.

My personal crafting goal for WoD pre-raid gear is 1 darkmoon trinket and enough mats for 2 leatherworking items, which I will save until after week 1 of raids unless we haven't full cleared normal+heroic by the weekend. Then I will craft whatever slots I haven't filled, and re-roll the stats so they have crit and not haste.

Upgrading items before raids unlock is going to require a lot of crafting alts being leveled for about 2 hours each, and spending tons of gold on mats that can't be farmed like the Sorcerous elements+Savage blood.

teddabear
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Re: WoD Beta General Discussion

Post by teddabear » Thu Oct 09, 2014 9:37 pm

ShmooDude wrote:
teddabear wrote:Feral is awfully far down the list on that single target sim.
Wait, what?

Did you mean AoE sim? We're like 6th on single target. I think our single target is fine unless they end up nerfing something else.

I don't think it'll be 20 targets any more as we found a bug in the code that prevented swipe from generating any CPs. It'll probably still require an absurd number like 11+ but its not AS bad as we thought. We'll know for sure when the new simc is uploaded.
There was a Simcraft posted where Feral had dropped down to around 13th, it must have been erroneous. It seems a little early to be taking Simcraft results as gospel anyway.

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Re: WoD Beta General Discussion

Post by Brun1234 » Thu Oct 09, 2014 10:02 pm

Does anyone have any hard data results for how the racials compare DPS-wise at 100? I'm specifically interested in Tauren vs. Troll but Night Elf vs. Worgen would be interesting to see as well.

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Re: WoD Beta General Discussion

Post by Aperature » Thu Oct 09, 2014 10:38 pm

Brun1234 wrote:Does anyone have any hard data results for how the racials compare DPS-wise at 100? I'm specifically interested in Tauren vs. Troll but Night Elf vs. Worgen would be interesting to see as well.
There was a SIM from 10-1 in T16H gear comparing racials.

http://downloads.simulationcraft.org/Ol ... -1-14.html

Best was a NE who raids by day, worst was a NE at night. However, the range was less than half a percent.

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aggixx
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Re: WoD Beta General Discussion

Post by aggixx » Fri Oct 10, 2014 1:51 am

teddabear wrote:It seems a little early to be taking Simcraft results as gospel anyway.
Its always too early.
Aperature wrote:
Brun1234 wrote:Does anyone have any hard data results for how the racials compare DPS-wise at 100? I'm specifically interested in Tauren vs. Troll but Night Elf vs. Worgen would be interesting to see as well.
There was a SIM from 10-1 in T16H gear comparing racials.

http://downloads.simulationcraft.org/Ol ... -1-14.html

Best was a NE who raids by day, worst was a NE at night. However, the range was less than half a percent.
That sim isn't entirely accurate. Night Elf is the best race regardless of day vs. night because of the Shadowmeld Improved Rake interaction which it seems to not be accounting for. If the profile isn't generated as a Night Elf then the relevant lines for taking advantage of it aren't in the action list.

Also that comparison is using (unoptimized) level 90 T16H profiles which is rather pointless and is misleading. At the beginning of the expansion when we aren't in super inflated gear, Tauren is the worst race because you don't have enough crit for the crit damage increase to scale on. Basically you can think of it as:

Night Elf > Everybody Else > Taurens

but the total gap is basically nonexistent relative to what the gap is today.
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ShmooDude
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Re: WoD Beta General Discussion

Post by ShmooDude » Fri Oct 10, 2014 5:41 am

As far as racials, a 25k iteration, Inc/BT, T17N geared:

night_elf_day_shadowmeld : 28231 dps
night_elf_night_shadowmeld : 28109 dps
tauren : 28055 dps
night_elf_day_no_shadowmeld : 28016 dps
worgen : 28015 dps
night_elf_night_no_shadowmeld : 27907 dps
troll : 27892 dps

Same as above but T17M geared:

night_elf_day_shadowmeld : 38464 dps
night_elf_night_shadowmeld : 38335 dps
tauren : 38258 dps
night_elf_day_no_shadowmeld : 38178 dps
worgen : 38150 dps
night_elf_night_no_shadowmeld : 38068 dps
troll : 38023 dps

Note: I also fixed it so shadowmeld wouldn't be used during incarnation so it doesn't get wasted as the current APL does. If they remove shadowmeld raking, the racials are all within ~0.6% of each other. Shadowmeld raking increases that gap to ~1.2% during the day or ~0.8% at night.

@aggixx Why do you think the Tauren is the worst? Its currently simming best race if you discount using shadowmeld. Or is there perhaps something wrong with Simc's implementation of the racial (looked ok to me though, slight increase in crit damage).
Last edited by ShmooDude on Fri Oct 10, 2014 12:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

smugler
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Re: WoD Beta General Discussion

Post by smugler » Fri Oct 10, 2014 11:21 am

So nightelf is best due to the bug? isn't that suppose to be fixed. or will it just stay there forever due to the mechanic of rake and stealth?

Also may I ask, when you say night_elf_day_noshadowmeld, which means just 1% crit, isnt that the exact thing that worgen have? why is nightelf still ahead of worgens even without shadoemeld and just 1% crit, they should make the same numbers, no?

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Re: WoD Beta General Discussion

Post by Twitchys » Fri Oct 10, 2014 11:37 am

night_elf_day_noshadowmeld and worgen are the same. There's no statistical difference between the two. Even at 25k iterations, the error is well over the 1 dps delta in the output.

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Re: WoD Beta General Discussion

Post by smugler » Fri Oct 10, 2014 11:43 am

can someone confirm that the relation between shadowmeld and rake will stay there? Id love to go back playing my nightelf ally instead of horde if thats the case, it sounds good for pvp too.

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Re: WoD Beta General Discussion

Post by Tinderhoof » Fri Oct 10, 2014 11:56 am

Unless they say otherwise it will stay at first. It will suck most in PVP that's for sure, and likely where we will hear the most whining. They did fix it so Shadowmeld will not trigger the SR glyph.

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aggixx
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Re: WoD Beta General Discussion

Post by aggixx » Fri Oct 10, 2014 12:16 pm

ShmooDude wrote:As far as racials, a 25k iteration, Inc/BT, T16N geared:

Same as above but T16M geared:

Note: I also fixed it so shadowmeld wouldn't be used during incarnation so it doesn't get wasted as the current APL does. If they remove shadowmeld raking, the racials are all within ~0.6% of each other. Shadowmeld raking increases that gap to ~1.2% during the day or ~0.8% at night.

@aggixx Why do you think the Tauren is the worst? Its currently simming best race if you discount using shadowmeld. Or is there perhaps something wrong with Simc's implementation of the racial (looked ok to me though, slight increase in crit damage).
I assume you mean T17 not T16 as those numbers are far too high for level 90. Anyways, it was the worst when I last ran the comparison in Primal Gladiator gear but that may have changed since then, and of course the amount of crit you have goes up pretty significantly from Primal Gladiator to T17 Mythic gear.
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Re: WoD Beta General Discussion

Post by ShmooDude » Fri Oct 10, 2014 12:29 pm

aggixx wrote:I assume you mean T17 not T16 as those numbers are far too high for level 90. Anyways, it was the worst when I last ran the comparison in Primal Gladiator gear but that may have changed since then, and of course the amount of crit you have goes up pretty significantly from Primal Gladiator to T17 Mythic gear.
Yeah, T17. Fixed in OP. T16 in case anyone cares:

night_elf_day : 15204 dps
worgen : 15198 dps
tauren : 15190 dps
troll : 15186 dps
night_elf_night : 15160 dps

Everything is really within error tolerance there as worgen should = night_elf_day

I'm thinking that its simply changed, as Primal Gladiator is 660 and T17N (which is the first set of numbers) is only 5 ilvls above at 665. Could be the trinket procs that change it too I guess, but still think its simply that tauren is better than in the sim you ran in the past from either apl changes or whatever.

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Steakbomb
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Re: WoD Beta General Discussion

Post by Steakbomb » Fri Oct 10, 2014 1:40 pm

I would be willing to bet that Tauren racial will be better by T18/T19 as it scales so well with our crit throughout the expac.

And for us Horde Min/Max people, we can finally not have to deal with Troll forms
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Re: WoD Beta General Discussion

Post by Brun1234 » Fri Oct 10, 2014 7:12 pm

Thanks for the analysis. Glad to hear that Tauren has moved a lot closer, I was very close to race changing to Troll (and dreading the hideousness that is Troll cat form), since I had read somewhere that early in the beta Troll was the clear frontrunner for the Horde races.
I would be willing to bet that Tauren racial will be better by T18/T19 as it scales so well with our crit throughout the expac.
I thought the same, especially since crit is so high in our stat weights now (and is our "attunement" stat, so we'll have even more of it).

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Re: WoD Beta General Discussion

Post by Thandorr » Sat Oct 11, 2014 3:13 am

The Tauren racial will definitely scale better than the troll racial for the expac. As our gear gets better, we'll have many more combo points to spend on bite which will in turn make the 2% crit damage amazing since Bite hits for double crit damage.

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aggixx
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Re: WoD Beta General Discussion

Post by aggixx » Sat Oct 11, 2014 1:54 pm

It gets better throughout the expansion, certainly, but you guys are overestimating exactly how much. ShmooDude just posted the comparison at level 90 and Tauren only beats Troll by 6 DPS (which is right on the edge of the DPS error; eg statistically meaningless). The primary reason you see such a difference in where Tauren falls at level 100 vs level 90 is because the level 100 profile uses Incarnation which increases its amount of crits pretty significantly. I'm positive if you were to use Incarnation in a level 90 profile you would see Tauren on top there as well, with the possible exception of Shadowmeld Night Elf. A second smaller factor is that the legendary meta gem doesn't have crit damage, so the 2% crit damage increase at level 100 is 3% more effective than at 90 due to crit damage increases stacking multiplicatively.

But really you guys are making mountains out of molehills, racials hardly matter at all anymore; there's a reason I consciously chose to not include that information in my guide. If you're happy that you feel you can be a Tauren or a Night Elf and now (I know I am), then great, but worrying about which race is better or worse and by how much now is completely pointless. The only thing even remotely worth worrying about about racials is the whole Night Elf Shadowmeld thing which is still less than the gap in racial DPS we have in 5.4.
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Re: WoD Beta General Discussion

Post by ShmooDude » Sat Oct 11, 2014 6:41 pm

aggixx wrote:A second smaller factor is that the legendary meta gem doesn't have crit damage, so the 2% crit damage increase at level 100 is 3% more effective than at 90 due to crit damage increases stacking multiplicatively.
Aren't meta gems gone at level 100? Well not "gone" but not on any of the new items, so not really relevant past dungeons.
Last edited by ShmooDude on Sat Oct 11, 2014 7:20 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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aggixx
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Re: WoD Beta General Discussion

Post by aggixx » Sat Oct 11, 2014 6:51 pm

Oh, I guess so huh. Oh well.
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Kraineth
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Re: WoD Beta General Discussion

Post by Kraineth » Wed Oct 15, 2014 7:31 pm

All is quiet on the Beta front.

After the 6.0 patch last night pre-pots were pulling us out of stealth, during Beta raid testing they weren't.

So I did some short testing on Beta and it looks like the WoD pots (Draenic Agility Potion) will not pull us out of stealth, but older potions (Virmen's Bite, Potion of the Tol'vir) will continue to cancel stealth.

So once we start using WoD potions (in just under a month!!!! yay!!!) our opening sequence will look a lot nicer, no more rushing to pot and get into prowl before the pull.

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