WoD Pre-Raid BiS List

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teddabear
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Re: WoD Pre-Raid BiS List

Post by teddabear » Tue Oct 14, 2014 1:09 am

Steakbomb wrote:Yea with the amount of RNG purely on loot they are introducing with WoD, it's going to make the grind just as bad as it was in MoP with rushing to get all the factions to exhaulted to be able to buy the epic valor gear. It also makes it almost impossible to get an actual viable BiS list because of all of the variables on gear including tier gear.
I had an incredibly bizarre streak in SoO of rolling gear almost every time I used a coin and it was mostly HWF. However due to multiple drops on each boss and Murphy's Law I was the highest geared person on my server but with almost completely Worst In Slot gear.

That's a hard situation to remedy because you have a lot of other people that need gear and my luck streak with coin rolls ran out.

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Re: WoD Pre-Raid BiS List

Post by Angelofblood » Tue Oct 14, 2014 9:05 pm

Steakbomb wrote:Yea with the amount of RNG purely on loot they are introducing with WoD, it's going to make the grind just as bad as it was in MoP with rushing to get all the factions to exhaulted to be able to buy the epic valor gear. It also makes it almost impossible to get an actual viable BiS list because of all of the variables on gear including tier gear.
I brought up RNG and BiS in chat during the convert to raid podcast with Hazzikostas & Holinka and bashiok or zarhym replied that perhaps we should cast away the idea of getting BiS and just try get upgrades. So I'm guessing blizzard might be pushing us into that directing for the coming expansion at least.

Imo it's good to have a list of gear to roughly aim for, so thanks for the list.

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Re: WoD Pre-Raid BiS List

Post by Óak » Fri Oct 17, 2014 5:53 pm

Is the DMC not expected to be BiS for us? or is that being counted as Garrison crafted gear?

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Steakbomb
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Re: WoD Pre-Raid BiS List

Post by Steakbomb » Fri Oct 17, 2014 6:49 pm

óak wrote:Is the DMC not expected to be BiS for us? or is that being counted as Garrison crafted gear?
I did not include DMF trinket as for some it will be impossible to get unless they have a lot of gold to spare but it is well above the 630 trinkets. But to include the DMF trinket would be unfair as not everyone can get it.
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Óak
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Re: WoD Pre-Raid BiS List

Post by Óak » Fri Oct 17, 2014 7:06 pm

Steakbomb wrote:I did not include DMF trinket as for some it will be impossible to get unless they have a lot of gold to spare but it is well above the 630 trinkets. But to include the DMF trinket would be unfair as not everyone can get it.
Oh I see. Okay cheers. I didn't play at the start of MoP, does anyone know how much the DMC's were back then and could anyone estimate the value of them at WoD launch?

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raffy
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Re: WoD Pre-Raid BiS List

Post by raffy » Fri Oct 17, 2014 9:19 pm

IMO, a way to think about BiS lists is something like: there's an actual list of base items that are considered BiS (Item BiS), and then there's an ideal variant of each of those items (Ultra BiS). There's also non-BiS items that get great rolls, like a Haste/Versa (or w/e) item with WF/Socket/Speed, that depending on our stat weights, will out perform the corresponding core BiS item. Lastly, there's non-BiS items that get crap rolls -- indestructible, I'm looking at you :p

Warforged is worth the most on core items (Head, Legs, Chest, Weapons) because they have the largest item budget and Sockets are best on the small budget items (Bracers, Jewelry, Rings especially because you have 2.)

(Ultra BiS) > (Hipster gear with great rolls) > (itemwise BiS) > (Hipster gear with garbage rolls) > (Dumpster gear)

The questions are:
- how big is the difference between Dumpster gear and Ultra BiS?
- how big is the difference between a random sampling of gear (typical raider) and Ultra BiS?

Obviously this depends on the final strength of set bonuses (they seem pretty strong right now), but it will be interesting if there are configurations of well-rolled gear that can beat tier.

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Re: WoD Pre-Raid BiS List

Post by teddabear » Sun Oct 19, 2014 12:46 am

raffy wrote:
The questions are:
- how big is the difference between Dumpster gear and Ultra BiS?
- how big is the difference between a random sampling of gear (typical raider) and Ultra BiS?

Obviously this depends on the final strength of set bonuses (they seem pretty strong right now), but it will be interesting if there are configurations of well-rolled gear that can beat tier.
That would send my OCD into overdrive.

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Re: WoD Pre-Raid BiS List

Post by ShmooDude » Sun Oct 19, 2014 5:14 am

raffy wrote:Obviously this depends on the final strength of set bonuses (they seem pretty strong right now), but it will be interesting if there are configurations of well-rolled gear that can beat tier.
Last I heard, Tier can roll bonuses, but you won't know till after you use the item so it makes it a bit harder to collect (I'd assume most guilds would get everyone tier first then those that have an ghetto tier can roll for a chance for a better one, or something). Seems like it'd be better if it could be revealed on the token itself but I'm guessing there's a technological hurdle for that.

Also, your analysis hit the nail on the head. I'm seriously tempted to copy/paste that over to my guild forums for all the BiS freaks (we have some people that you should only ever take BiS gear unless its no ones BiS, but that simply doesn't apply anymore).
teddabear wrote:That would send my OCD into overdrive.
Yeah, I got guildies bitching about it, how they can never get full BiS (which was the entire point of the change). I kinda like it though.

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Re: WoD Pre-Raid BiS List

Post by Leakyfaucet » Tue Oct 21, 2014 2:16 pm

Steakbomb wrote:
óak wrote:Is the DMC not expected to be BiS for us? or is that being counted as Garrison crafted gear?
I did not include DMF trinket as for some it will be impossible to get unless they have a lot of gold to spare but it is well above the 630 trinkets. But to include the DMF trinket would be unfair as not everyone can get it.

Isnt the PVP Conquest gear much better than any trinket anyways?

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Re: WoD Pre-Raid BiS List

Post by Moosie » Fri Oct 24, 2014 11:39 am

Steakbomb wrote:
óak wrote:Is the DMC not expected to be BiS for us? or is that being counted as Garrison crafted gear?
I did not include DMF trinket as for some it will be impossible to get unless they have a lot of gold to spare but it is well above the 630 trinkets. But to include the DMF trinket would be unfair as not everyone can get it.
I couldn't disagree more...Most progress raiders will already have the gold set aside for the trinket, and you don't even need to buy it, you can simply craft it. It's not really a BiS list when you don't include the best possible gear that is obtainable BY ANY MEANS before raiding actually starts.

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Re: WoD Pre-Raid BiS List

Post by Steakbomb » Fri Oct 24, 2014 3:56 pm

Moosie wrote:
Steakbomb wrote:
óak wrote:Is the DMC not expected to be BiS for us? or is that being counted as Garrison crafted gear?
I did not include DMF trinket as for some it will be impossible to get unless they have a lot of gold to spare but it is well above the 630 trinkets. But to include the DMF trinket would be unfair as not everyone can get it.
I couldn't disagree more...Most progress raiders will already have the gold set aside for the trinket, and you don't even need to buy it, you can simply craft it. It's not really a BiS list when you don't include the best possible gear that is obtainable BY ANY MEANS before raiding actually starts.
So because 10% of the player base will have the gold ready for these trinkets I should ignore the other more easily obtainable items? Progress raiders are a VERY SMALL portion of WoW as a whole and even a small portion of this community. There are only a handful of Ferals that are in Top Ranked guilds and 1 IIRC that is in a Top 10 guild so while a chunk of people will be ready for the trinket, most will bypass it at least to start raiding.

You have to remember that most "Raiders" are very behind the curve on progressing. Not all of us are in super high end guilds and progress a lot slower. That doesn't mean that we don't try to min/max but in all honesty, how many people do you think are going to spend between 30-50K on a trinket that starts at 640 and will be BiS for 1-2 weeks as Heroic/Mythic trinkets are better than it.

Also, if you think that price is high for the trinkets, try playing on a small server and see how much they are. Start of MoP, the DMF Trinkets were 45k on my server until mid ToT when they dropped to around 10k.

Personally I am Inscription so I can make myself the trinket but a small portion of the player base will be willing to spend the gold to obtain 1.

EDIT: Added DMF trinket to list but thought of another thing. The DMF trinket is 1 of the 3 crafted pieces you are allowed so using this trinket also depends on what gear you are able to get from heroics. If you don't get very lucky in Heroic Dungeons are still wearing a couple of lets say 610 pieces but have both 630 trinkets, you are better off investing in 3 pieces of the leather crafted gear instead of the trinket.
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Re: WoD Pre-Raid BiS List

Post by Moosie » Sat Oct 25, 2014 12:24 am

Steakbomb wrote: So because 10% of the player base will have the gold ready for these trinkets I should ignore the other more easily obtainable items? Progress raiders are a VERY SMALL portion of WoW as a whole and even a small portion of this community. There are only a handful of Ferals that are in Top Ranked guilds and 1 IIRC that is in a Top 10 guild so while a chunk of people will be ready for the trinket, most will bypass it at least to start raiding.

You have to remember that most "Raiders" are very behind the curve on progressing. Not all of us are in super high end guilds and progress a lot slower. That doesn't mean that we don't try to min/max but in all honesty, how many people do you think are going to spend between 30-50K on a trinket that starts at 640 and will be BiS for 1-2 weeks as Heroic/Mythic trinkets are better than it.

Also, if you think that price is high for the trinkets, try playing on a small server and see how much they are. Start of MoP, the DMF Trinkets were 45k on my server until mid ToT when they dropped to around 10k.

Personally I am Inscription so I can make myself the trinket but a small portion of the player base will be willing to spend the gold to obtain 1.

EDIT: Added DMF trinket to list but thought of another thing. The DMF trinket is 1 of the 3 crafted pieces you are allowed so using this trinket also depends on what gear you are able to get from heroics. If you don't get very lucky in Heroic Dungeons are still wearing a couple of lets say 610 pieces but have both 630 trinkets, you are better off investing in 3 pieces of the leather crafted gear instead of the trinket.
I admit, a small number of the players are not hardcore progress raiders, but when you advertise a list as "BEST-IN-SLOT" list, people kinda expect that, not best-in-slot if you are poor. I'm not having a go at you, I understand why you did it, but a DMF trinket really isn't much to ask from even a semi-hardcore raider. You listed a price of 45k, I paid 150k for my trinket at the start of MoP and I was nowhere near hardcore level back then. Also, given the trinkets count towards your unique crafted items, expect the trinket to cost a little less then it did in previous expansions, won't be much though.

Since you added it though, might be worth mentioning that it is upgradable to 665 item level. Standard trinket (640) > Use an Inferno Tarrot to take it to (655) > then use a Molten Tarrot to take it to (665). At that item level I would expect it to trounce on pretty much anything, apart from the weapon.

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Re: WoD Pre-Raid BiS List

Post by Meaningless » Sat Oct 25, 2014 7:17 am

Steakbomb wrote:So because 10% of the player base will have the gold ready for these trinkets I should ignore the other more easily obtainable items? Progress raiders are a VERY SMALL portion of WoW as a whole and even a small portion of this community. There are only a handful of Ferals that are in Top Ranked guilds and 1 IIRC that is in a Top 10 guild so while a chunk of people will be ready for the trinket, most will bypass it at least to start raiding.

You have to remember that most "Raiders" are very behind the curve on progressing. Not all of us are in super high end guilds and progress a lot slower. That doesn't mean that we don't try to min/max but in all honesty, how many people do you think are going to spend between 30-50K on a trinket that starts at 640 and will be BiS for 1-2 weeks as Heroic/Mythic trinkets are better than it.

Also, if you think that price is high for the trinkets, try playing on a small server and see how much they are. Start of MoP, the DMF Trinkets were 45k on my server until mid ToT when they dropped to around 10k.

Personally I am Inscription so I can make myself the trinket but a small portion of the player base will be willing to spend the gold to obtain 1.

EDIT: Added DMF trinket to list but thought of another thing. The DMF trinket is 1 of the 3 crafted pieces you are allowed so using this trinket also depends on what gear you are able to get from heroics. If you don't get very lucky in Heroic Dungeons are still wearing a couple of lets say 610 pieces but have both 630 trinkets, you are better off investing in 3 pieces of the leather crafted gear instead of the trinket.
I do agree with everything here, when it comes to gold, you'd be suprised how unwilling ppl are to spend it even if it helps them progress. The trinket will most likely be mandatory in the guild I'm in, but the guild will also help with crafting (I will probably use 8 inscripters myself just as I did this expansion). This is obviously not anywhere near "normal".

Your EDIT brings up a good point aswell, considering everything is so RNG based it's fairly impossible to get a perfect bis before raiding starts, most, if not all people will have to compromise and add/craft gear that other people didn't have to. I guess it should still be in the list though.

As far as upgrades go, wouldn't upgrading the trinket be the number 1 choice for everyone if you had the chance? Even at 655 it should be a force to be reckon with.
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Re: WoD Pre-Raid BiS List

Post by Leakyfaucet » Sat Oct 25, 2014 11:39 am

Can anyone explain to me why I'd use DMC over any of the 660 Conquest? What's the ICD of http://www.wowhead.com/item=111223

Even @ DMC upgraded to 660 it still procs crit over AGI. Unless the ICD of the PVP trinket is higher than the DMC I see no use in DMC over the Conquest trinkets.

Even http://www.wowhead.com/item=111222 has Agi as its on use.

I believe CP cap floor is 1600, that means it'll take slightly over 2 weeks, which is right before raids open, to get both the trinkets.


EDIT: Looks like the DMC goes 640->655->665 can't seem to find the correct tool tips for the 665 version or the 655.
EDIT2: Seems its 1800, don't know if that's changing for warlords.

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Re: WoD Pre-Raid BiS List

Post by Meaningless » Sat Oct 25, 2014 12:10 pm

It depends on your overall gear for stat weights I guess (and the ICD of the pvp trinket), as the DMC gives 1680 crit @ ilvl 660 and I'd be really suprised if 700 agi beats that.
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Re: WoD Pre-Raid BiS List

Post by Rayen » Sat Oct 25, 2014 1:12 pm

óak wrote:
Steakbomb wrote:Oh I see. Okay cheers. I didn't play at the start of MoP, does anyone know how much the DMC's were back then and could anyone estimate the value of them at WoD launch?

On my server they were about 100k and dropped to around 50k during the first 3 weeks. But having access to multiple scribes allowed me to pull my cards and swap for what I needed. I ended buying the last 2 cards I needed for about 10k.

My guild always pulls our scribe's resources (most of our raiders have more than one) and any doubles we get and/or cards we don't need get put into a mutual fund-that allows at least some of us to have the trinkets for the first raid. There are also Jokers this time around so completing decks will be easier.
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Re: WoD Pre-Raid BiS List

Post by Tinderhoof » Sat Oct 25, 2014 2:48 pm

Leakyfaucet wrote:Can anyone explain to me why I'd use DMC over any of the 660 Conquest? What's the ICD of http://www.wowhead.com/item=111223

Even @ DMC upgraded to 660 it still procs crit over AGI. Unless the ICD of the PVP trinket is higher than the DMC I see no use in DMC over the Conquest trinkets.

Even http://www.wowhead.com/item=111222 has Agi as its on use.

I believe CP cap floor is 1600, that means it'll take slightly over 2 weeks, which is right before raids open, to get both the trinkets.


EDIT: Looks like the DMC goes 640->655->665 can't seem to find the correct tool tips for the 665 version or the 655.
EDIT2: Seems its 1800, don't know if that's changing for warlords.
Those aren't the final numbers for those trinkets. They are going to be lowered to prevent them from being really really good in PVE.

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Re: WoD Pre-Raid BiS List

Post by Leakyfaucet » Mon Oct 27, 2014 2:12 pm

Meaningless wrote:It depends on your overall gear for stat weights I guess (and the ICD of the pvp trinket), as the DMC gives 1680 crit @ ilvl 660 and I'd be really suprised if 700 agi beats that.
According to the weights provided by this post:
700 * 6.14 = 4298
1680 * 2.39 = 4015.2


However as Tinderhoof stated if the trinkets do get tuned down it may be different. Also I was under the assumption that the gear upgrades went 640->655->665 and that the 660 trinket is wrong.

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Re: WoD Pre-Raid BiS List

Post by Meaningless » Mon Oct 27, 2014 2:35 pm

Leakyfaucet wrote:
Meaningless wrote:It depends on your overall gear for stat weights I guess (and the ICD of the pvp trinket), as the DMC gives 1680 crit @ ilvl 660 and I'd be really suprised if 700 agi beats that.
According to the weights provided by this post:
700 * 6.14 = 4298
1680 * 2.39 = 4015.2


However as Tinderhoof stated if the trinkets do get tuned down it may be different. Also I was under the assumption that the gear upgrades went 640->655->665 and that the 660 trinket is wrong.
Most of the stuff is most likely wrong :P Just have to wait and see closer to the release I guess :P
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Re: WoD Pre-Raid BiS List

Post by Neonjoe » Tue Oct 28, 2014 10:00 pm

I really don't like the idea of never truly having BiS gear and so much variation in gear. Will make comparing logs difficult to nearly useless as there will be so much variation

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Re: WoD Pre-Raid BiS List

Post by Tinderhoof » Tue Oct 28, 2014 10:31 pm

Don't know if you have been paying attention to Warcraft logs, but they are going to be segmented by Ilvl based on when the log was captured. There is going to be a lot of tools to help pin down what state the character was when the log was taken. It really shouldn't be that hard.

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Re: WoD Pre-Raid BiS List

Post by ShmooDude » Tue Oct 28, 2014 11:08 pm

Tinderhoof wrote:Don't know if you have been paying attention to Warcraft logs, but they are going to be segmented by Ilvl based on when the log was captured. There is going to be a lot of tools to help pin down what state the character was when the log was taken. It really shouldn't be that hard.
Wait, so I can't automatically win by being the highest ilvl? Shenanigans!

J/k. That's a good feature. Especially for analyzing potential recruits since I have no clue what someone in 560 gear should be pulling for example.

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Re: WoD Pre-Raid BiS List

Post by Amitty » Wed Oct 29, 2014 11:49 am

Btw, what about WoD absolute BiS list or it's too early at this point?

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Re: WoD Pre-Raid BiS List

Post by Steakbomb » Wed Oct 29, 2014 1:20 pm

With the rng on rolls it's not viable to make an absolute bis list. They would all be wf with sockets on them
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Re: WoD Pre-Raid BiS List

Post by ShmooDude » Wed Oct 29, 2014 1:23 pm

I'm not sure there's ever a reason to make an absolute BiS list...

The absolute BiS items have to A) drop, then B) get both a socket and warforged, which are afaik still 10% chance each so 1% chance. Technically you'd need a tertiary stat as well but since those have little/no combat functionality we'll just assume you don't have to.

Or maybe I misunderstood what you're asking for. :)


I think the far more important question is if a Warforged and/or Socketed item with sub-optimal stats is better than an optimal statted item.

So for example, dungeon boots (and I think all slots, heroic dungeons gonna be very RNG):
There's like 5 different pairs.
Crit/Mastery
Haste/Multistrike
Versatility/Mastery
Crit/Haste
Haste/Mastery

Is the Crit/Mastery with no bonuses better or worse than say Haste/Mastery with a socket? If its warforged? Or does it have to be both.

I can't find a way for wowhead to give that heroic item warforged so I'll just go with the socket which is +40 of a secondary (in our case crit). Using the numbers from the original post:


96 Haste * 1.56 = 149.76
64 Mastery * 1.85 = 118.4
40 Crit * 2.39 = 95.6
Total = 363.76

vs

84 Crit * 2.39 = 200.76
84 Mastery * 1.85 = 155.4
Total = 356.16

Almost equal, but the socketed item in this case wins by a smidge. This might even vary item by item since different items have different amounts of stats (chests have more than bracers etc).

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