FB vs Rip in WoD

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Óak
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FB vs Rip in WoD

Post by Óak » Tue Oct 28, 2014 3:19 pm

Hey guys,

What's the general consensus on applying the strongest possible rip versus FB in WoD? Been playing around on the WoD beta, did all of Highmaul on Flex in PvP gear, with 4 set T17. I found that I was spending nearly all my time snapshotting Rip (with TF and Bloodtalons) to get the best possible Rip and hardly ever using Ferocious Bite, I'm assuming this is wrong before the boss is under 25% and snapshotting Rip isn't as beneficial as FB. Is this right?

-Óak

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Re: FB vs Rip in WoD

Post by ShmooDude » Tue Oct 28, 2014 5:01 pm

General consensus atm. Don't overwrite rip unless you won't lose any uptime (<7.2 seconds remaining on Rip). FB is strong enough that you should never waste rip ticks by refreshing earlier than that.

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Re: FB vs Rip in WoD

Post by Óak » Tue Oct 28, 2014 6:00 pm

ShmooDude wrote:General consensus atm. Don't overwrite rip unless you won't lose any uptime (<7.2 seconds remaining on Rip). FB is strong enough that you should never waste rip ticks by refreshing earlier than that.
Excellent. Thank you.

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Re: FB vs Rip in WoD

Post by Neonjoe » Tue Oct 28, 2014 9:44 pm

Anyone have some DPE comparison values for FB and RIP?

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Re: FB vs Rip in WoD

Post by ShmooDude » Tue Oct 28, 2014 11:16 pm

Simcraft, In T17 mythic gear, LI/FoN spec, Rip does an average of 192k and Ferocious Bite does 109k so that's about 6.4 and 2.2 so a little more than 1/3.

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Re: FB vs Rip in WoD

Post by aggixx » Wed Oct 29, 2014 4:44 pm

I don't think that's right. You can't look directly at DPE because both figures are skewed by several factors. Its probably easier to just calculate the DPE by hand:

Rip Damage: 516% of AP * ( 1 + Mastery )
Ferocious Bite Damage: 340% of AP * 2 * 65.1% (Armor)

On an unrelated note, you can solve for how much mastery it takes for Rip to pass FB: 31.78%. We get almost 41% just with the raid buff so Rip is always better, at least by some amount.

The T17M profile has 55.93% mastery which puts Rip at 805% of AP compared to FB's 680%. Their damage per execute ratio is 1.81:1, and their damage per energy ratio is 3.02:1. Both figures are misleading to compare their actual power, though; to do that you have to subtract the 1/2 of a Shred worth of damage that you spend on Biting.

Edit: Updated for armor, nice catch Shmoo.

There's also crit which brings FB up relative to Rip.
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Re: FB vs Rip in WoD

Post by ShmooDude » Wed Oct 29, 2014 5:03 pm

You forgot Armor? What is the proper armor value for that anyhow. I keep trying to search google for it but can't find it.

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Re: FB vs Rip in WoD

Post by AsgardFM » Wed Oct 29, 2014 5:05 pm

I think it was always a given that Rip would be more powerful than FB in our rotation...otherwise why deal your damage over 24 seconds when it could be done instantly. It's good to see some values on exactly how powerful it is though.

But to go back to the original question, is it more worthwhile to cast Bite or to gain a 15% (add another 30% with BT) boost to your Rip? You'll always want to boost your Rip if you can gain full Pandemic duration bonus but how will it calculate when outside that timer?

I don't normally go into the maths behind all the theory crafting but I'd be interested to see other people's working.

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Re: FB vs Rip in WoD

Post by ShmooDude » Wed Oct 29, 2014 5:21 pm

AsgardFM wrote:... is it more worthwhile to cast Bite or to gain a 15% (add another 30% with BT) boost to your Rip? You'll always want to boost your Rip if you can gain full Pandemic duration bonus but how will it calculate when outside that timer?
Everything I've seen from messing around in simcraft says only if its during pandemic. Never earlier.

Also on the training dummies on beta w/ a 100 character it looks like:

1200-1201 damage character sheet = 781-782 damage raider's training dummy

~65.1% Damage after armor is taken into account? That's a lot higher than before isn't it?

That makes the comparison
Rip Damage: 516% of AP * ( 1 + Mastery )
Ferocious Bite Damage: 340% of AP * 2 * 0.651

The T17M profile has 55.93% mastery which puts Rip at 805% of AP compared to FB's 442.68%. Their damage per execute ratio is 1.82:1, and their damage per energy ratio is 3.03:1.

From my simcraft numbers damage per execute ratio is 1.76:1 and damage per energy ratio is 2.94:1 so not that far off. Calculating it directly is more accurate though.

Another thing to consider is that trinket procs benefit direct damage more than dots now that its dynamic. If, for example, you've got 1 second left on that multistrike buff, you'll get full benefit by using a Ferocious Bite but almost no benefit if you use a Rip instead.

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Re: FB vs Rip in WoD

Post by Óak » Wed Oct 29, 2014 5:37 pm

AsgardFM wrote:But to go back to the original question, is it more worthwhile to cast Bite or to gain a 15% (add another 30% with BT) boost to your Rip? You'll always want to boost your Rip if you can gain full Pandemic duration bonus but how will it calculate when outside that timer?
Indeed, that's my question. Obviously at around 30% you want to have a Rip with TF and BT that'll last you to the end of the fight, that isn't in dispute, at least I'm not disputing that, why would you not want the most powerful Rip possible for 25% of the fight? And obviously if you can apply a TF/BT Rip when the current Rip has less than 7.2 seconds remaining then obviously you'll do that. I'm strictly talking about say for example having 5 CB points, 15 seconds on Rip left, a stack of Bloodtalons and a few seconds remaining on Tiger's Fury buff.

In that situation you either Rip and waste potential ticks on your current one but gain power on your new one, or you FB and build back up to 5CB points and Rip without Bloodtalons or TF (actually in this example you can get the next Rip up with Bloodtalons, but for the sake of argument let's assume that the next Rip won't be buffed by BT.)

From my testing yesterday it appeared in DPS terms that it was better to FB more than snapshot Rip as much as possible by sacrificing FBs but I haven't done any theorycrafting to prove that, that's just what I noticed when playing, I wasn't testing it for that long so absolutely don't take my word as gospel.

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Re: FB vs Rip in WoD

Post by Meaningless » Wed Oct 29, 2014 6:47 pm

I've been trying to wrap my head around this aswell, but I'm short on both time and tools atm (only have my phone for calcs). And I really want to get to the bottom of it...

Just going through different cases in my head I just have this feeling that a BT + TF buffed rip overriding like a 10-12 sec normal rip is gonna be a small gain. Anything over that is probably gonna be a dps loss. But I guess I'll leave this to the pro's :D
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Re: FB vs Rip in WoD

Post by ShmooDude » Wed Oct 29, 2014 7:44 pm

Well I just did a crap ton of math for simcraft which should be relevant for you guys question: http://fluiddruid.net/forum/viewtopic.p ... =50#p25339

You gotta remember that if you're not using that BT + TF on Rip, you are (likely) using it on Ferocious Bite instead so the ratio remains basically the same. Based on my math, you could probably waste 1 tick (so <9.2) and come out slightly ahead, but I don't think any more than that would still be an up. Maybe someone who hasn't worn out their brain already with math can find out.

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Re: FB vs Rip in WoD

Post by Meaningless » Wed Oct 29, 2014 8:06 pm

ShmooDude wrote:Well I just did a crap ton of math for simcraft which should be relevant for you guys question: http://fluiddruid.net/forum/viewtopic.p ... =50#p25339

You gotta remember that if you're not using that BT + TF on Rip, you are (likely) using it on Ferocious Bite instead so the ratio remains basically the same. Based on my math, you could probably waste 1 tick (so <9.2) and come out slightly ahead, but I don't think any more than that would still be an up. Maybe someone who hasn't worn out their brain already with math can find out.
Basicly read that just after my post, very interesting indeed. Thanks :mrgreen:
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