Pawkets' Feral DPS Guide & FAQ -- Updated for 6.2.3!

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Tinderhoof
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Re: Pawkets' Feral DPS Guide & FAQ -- Updated for 6.0!

Post by Tinderhoof » Tue Dec 02, 2014 7:45 pm

The point wasn't to use Copelands but they were asking WHY Coplands got a huge Crit buff when LDSC didn't.

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Re: Pawkets' Feral DPS Guide & FAQ -- Updated for 6.0!

Post by Meaningless » Tue Dec 02, 2014 8:15 pm

Bit offtopic but I've been wondering it for awhile, is there anyway to export to pawn strings from simcrafts? Or do you have to do it manually? :roll:
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Re: Pawkets' Feral DPS Guide & FAQ -- Updated for 6.0!

Post by Stenhaldi » Tue Dec 02, 2014 9:47 pm

Leakyfaucet wrote:Just wondering how Copeland is any different from coin? It gives the same benefit on use but Copelands now has almost double the crit?
Guildmates say Copeland's gives only ~1100 spellpower, not 1467 (despite the tooltip).

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Re: Pawkets' Feral DPS Guide & FAQ -- Updated for 6.0!

Post by Polihayse » Tue Dec 02, 2014 10:07 pm

In the opener, is it worth it to delay using tiger's fury until right before using your first finisher in order to have it up in time for a second finisher. Right now I'm looking at something like this:

1. HT
2. Prowl
3. Rake
4. Incarnation
5. Berserk/Shred
6. Shred to 5 combo points
7. TF/Rip
8. Shred to 4/5 combo points
9. HT
10.Rake/FB
11.FB/Rake

1. HT
2. Prowl
3. Rake
4. Incarnation
5. Berserk/Shred
6. Shred to 5 combo points
7. TF/FB
8. Shred to 4/5 combo points
9. HT
10.Rake/Rip
11.Rip/Rake

I don't know if I should do rip or FB first. I'm leaning towards rip.

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Re: Pawkets' Feral DPS Guide & FAQ -- Updated for 6.0!

Post by Leakyfaucet » Tue Dec 02, 2014 10:24 pm

Stenhaldi wrote:
Leakyfaucet wrote:Just wondering how Copeland is any different from coin? It gives the same benefit on use but Copelands now has almost double the crit?
Guildmates say Copeland's gives only ~1100 spellpower, not 1467 (despite the tooltip).
Ah okay that explains it some, thanks.

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Re: Pawkets' Feral DPS Guide & FAQ -- Updated for 6.0!

Post by Metoxx » Wed Dec 03, 2014 3:56 am

Polihayse wrote:In the opener, is it worth it to delay using tiger's fury until right before using your first finisher in order to have it up in time for a second finisher. Right now I'm looking at something like this:
[...]
I don't know if I should do rip or FB first. I'm leaning towards rip.
first of all: using TF with the first finisher is the best way to go.
and in MY opinion it sounds pretty logical to FB first, since u can spam so much (and got trinketprocs) so u will crit most of the time at least twice til 2nd finisher...that being said...you delay Rip by just like 3-4 seconds BUT got off a nice FB AND you get Rip off with some nice BT +30%dmg buff (+TF ofcourse). this sounds so worth for me.
but i could be totally wrong... maybe we got some simcraft-pro who could simulate both openers (plz with coin + skull trinket :P ) and could tell us the results.

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Re: Pawkets' Feral DPS Guide & FAQ -- Updated for 6.0!

Post by Mysticum » Wed Dec 03, 2014 7:34 am

One thing I would like to see in the guide is how to weight warforged vs gem socket. I assume that gem socket will triumph warforged (but not sure). Since item levels scales logarithmic, there should be a breakpoint where the stats will outweight the value of socket (50 crit). Will we see that breakpoint in this expansion at all, or is it far below/above that point already?

The formulas I found for stat calculation based on item level seems to be outdated, so I have not even done napkin math on this, but whenever conclusion can be made, it would be a nice addition to the guide.

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Re: Pawkets' Feral DPS Guide & FAQ -- Updated for 6.0!

Post by inseedious » Wed Dec 03, 2014 3:24 pm

Probably that's just my opinion, but I'm going into a straight crit>mastery>multistrike setup. There are just too many multitarget encounters, and I think that the single target loss is irrilevant because even smaller than the variance of our dps. Since the dynamics of a single target dps can vary from stacking multistrike to stacking mastery (ofc as the 2nd stat), I think that focusing on one setup and learning how to play it almost perfectly is more efficient than having to change the gear from a fight to another.

To value the stats, I did a weighted average, expecting that pure single target fights will be 2/3 of the total, while the remaining 1/3 will be 2 target (did it pessimisticly, cause lots of fights will be at 3+ targets, and multitarget fights are way more than 1/3). So, doing this average between the "Patchwerk" and "2 Target" stats weight (they're in the guide, just click on the links to see them), crit weight is 2.12, while mastery weight is 2.11. Multi has "just" 1.91. Do you think my method is too approximative? I think it's pessimisticly approximative (mastery wise), so I guess master can have a even higher value.
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Re: Pawkets' Feral DPS Guide & FAQ -- Updated for 6.0!

Post by inseedious » Wed Dec 03, 2014 3:36 pm

Mysticum wrote:One thing I would like to see in the guide is how to weight warforged vs gem socket. I assume that gem socket will triumph warforged (but not sure). Since item levels scales logarithmic, there should be a breakpoint where the stats will outweight the value of socket (50 crit). Will we see that breakpoint in this expansion at all, or is it far below/above that point already?

The formulas I found for stat calculation based on item level seems to be outdated, so I have not even done napkin math on this, but whenever conclusion can be made, it would be a nice addition to the guide.
You have to value it using stats weights. For example, I dropped a 645 iLvl feet with versat+mastery, and doing a comparison (also with ask mr robot), my 630 iLvl feet with crit+mastery+bonus socket were more powerful.
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Re: Pawkets' Feral DPS Guide & FAQ -- Updated for 6.0!

Post by Daias » Wed Dec 03, 2014 5:30 pm

Is there an easier way to determine an upgrade than re-simming everything?

For example, Earthwarped Bladestaff vs Crushto's Neck Separator?

I know that crit/mastery is better than haste/versatility in equal amounts, but can I determine the tradeoff between gaining 78 weapon dps, 44 agility, 155 haste, and 117 versatility and losing 121 crit and 95 mastery without having to re-sim?

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Re: Pawkets' Feral DPS Guide & FAQ -- Updated for 6.0!

Post by aggixx » Wed Dec 03, 2014 5:36 pm

Metoxx wrote:and in MY opinion it sounds pretty logical to FB first, since u can spam so much (and got trinketprocs) so u will crit most of the time at least twice til 2nd finisher...that being said...you delay Rip by just like 3-4 seconds BUT got off a nice FB AND you get Rip off with some nice BT +30%dmg buff (+TF ofcourse). this sounds so worth for me.
Already simmed it, its a DPS loss. Small difference, but it'll get large with more gear.
Mysticum wrote:One thing I would like to see in the guide is how to weight warforged vs gem socket. I assume that gem socket will triumph warforged (but not sure). Since item levels scales logarithmic, there should be a breakpoint where the stats will outweight the value of socket (50 crit). Will we see that breakpoint in this expansion at all, or is it far below/above that point already?

The formulas I found for stat calculation based on item level seems to be outdated, so I have not even done napkin math on this, but whenever conclusion can be made, it would be a nice addition to the guide.
See the "Which item is better?" section.
Daias wrote:Is there an easier way to determine an upgrade than re-simming everything?

For example, Earthwarped Bladestaff vs Crushto's Neck Separator?

I know that crit/mastery is better than haste/versatility in equal amounts, but can I determine the tradeoff between gaining 78 weapon dps, 44 agility, 155 haste, and 117 versatility and losing 121 crit and 95 mastery without having to re-sim?
Same thing, see the "Which item is better?" section. That said I'm pretty sure any Highmaul weapon will destroy a heroic 5 man item; generally stats on a weapon matter far less than its item level.
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Re: Pawkets' Feral DPS Guide & FAQ -- Updated for 6.0!

Post by raffy » Wed Dec 03, 2014 6:48 pm

Polihayse wrote:I don't know if I should do rip or FB first. I'm leaning towards rip.
I agree with aggixx but I think this depends on your choice of trinkets and gear. For example, if you have a crit/haste/mastery proc, FB-ing first is never going to work. But if you're Crit/Multistrike geared with a long Agility proc (20s), I could see FB first maybe being an option, but a better question would be, where's your Mastery?

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Re: Pawkets' Feral DPS Guide & FAQ -- Updated for 6.0!

Post by Daias » Wed Dec 03, 2014 8:35 pm

Wow, I can't believe I missed that. And here I was about to write an addon to do the same thing, once I figured out how to weight it correctly. Thanks!

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Re: Pawkets' Feral DPS Guide & FAQ -- Updated for 6.0!

Post by Metoxx » Thu Dec 04, 2014 3:30 am

aggixx wrote:Already simmed it, its a DPS loss. Small difference, but it'll get large with more gear.
ok :(

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Re: Pawkets' Feral DPS Guide & FAQ -- Updated for 6.0!

Post by Polihayse » Thu Dec 04, 2014 9:08 am

raffy wrote:
Polihayse wrote:I don't know if I should do rip or FB first. I'm leaning towards rip.
I agree with aggixx but I think this depends on your choice of trinkets and gear. For example, if you have a crit/haste/mastery proc, FB-ing first is never going to work. But if you're Crit/Multistrike geared with a long Agility proc (20s), I could see FB first maybe being an option, but a better question would be, where's your Mastery?
I'm currently at 1592 crit, 702 multistrike and 295 mastery with DMC trinket.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/s ... oli/simple

It seems like rip first would be best with this gearing. My crit chance goes up to 48.80% when the trinket activates which means I'll have an extremely high chance to crit with FB and the 30% damage increase from BT will consistently be pretty large. Also, my low mastery means that the bonus damage I get with a BT rip will not contribute as much compared to gearing with more mastery. Also, the DMC trinket sometimes does not proc before the first finisher which makes casting FB more risky with only a 35.47 x 2 = 70.94% chance to crit instead of a 48.80 x 2 = 97.6% chance to crit.

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Re: Pawkets' Feral DPS Guide & FAQ -- Updated for 6.0!

Post by Mysticum » Thu Dec 04, 2014 10:40 am

inseedious wrote:You have to value it using stats weights. For example, I dropped a 645 iLvl feet with versat+mastery, and doing a comparison (also with ask mr robot), my 630 iLvl feet with crit+mastery+bonus socket were more powerful.
Well, that was not really my point. My point was to find the breakpoint in item level where warforged will triumph socket, which, even with +50 crit gems, could happen this expansion.

The exact stat formula doesn't seem to be reversed engineered since 6.0.2, but I guess you could just use current values and do an extrapolation in order to find the approximate breakpoint.

For specific items, stats weight works very good, but since that weights are static, they work poorly for this purpose since stats increases logarithmic.

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Re: Pawkets' Feral DPS Guide & FAQ -- Updated for 6.0!

Post by Dyvz » Thu Dec 04, 2014 3:25 pm

Quite a few feral druids still use 2t16 setbonus even in raids.
Can it be an option in case of bad luck with gearing? (630 gloves and shoulders for example)
How good can it scale later with getting gear (before you get t17 bonuses i guess)?

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Re: Pawkets' Feral DPS Guide & FAQ -- Updated for 6.0!

Post by Chimmichango » Thu Dec 04, 2014 6:16 pm

I've been playing with different openers based on some of the suggestions here and I'd like to see what the rest of you are doing.

1) Pre-Pull...HT, Pot, Incarnation, Berserk, TF. Then open with Rake and start my rotation.
Cons-Need to burn CP's to get SR back up once the initial Glyphed version is about to drop and you lose a little up time on Buffs.

2) Pre-Pull...HT, Pot, Stealth. Then open with Rake and hold off using Incarnation/Berserk until the initial SR is about to fall off so as to minimize the number of CP's needed for SR during the fight.
Cons- Based on the fight can be tricky to get everything (Energy, TF, Berserk) lined up for Incarnation after the initial SR is about to fall off.

I'm finding better results with the first option but that seems to be due to my inability to get everything not only lined up for Incarnation but also having to account for various encounter mechanics which may keep me off the Boss. What's everyone else finding?

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Re: Pawkets' Feral DPS Guide & FAQ -- Updated for 6.0!

Post by aggixx » Thu Dec 04, 2014 6:45 pm

Dyvz wrote:Quite a few feral druids still use 2t16 setbonus even in raids.
Can it be an option in case of bad luck with gearing? (630 gloves and shoulders for example)
How good can it scale later with getting gear (before you get t17 bonuses i guess)?
4pT16 should be superior to 2p, at least with Bloodtalons.

I wouldn't say luck is really involved at all, if you have it you should use it for single target fights (Kargath, Butcher, maybe Ko'ragh). The bonuses do lose a lot of value on multiple target encounters so in general I wouldn't recommend them for that, but I suppose if its a matter of 2 blues vs 2 piece it could still be feasible, its not just not something that I've simmed.

It scales pretty well even with good gear, my gear is pretty bonkers for this point in the expansion (check my sig) and its still a 400 DPS gain on patchwerk. 2pT16 should make it much less lucrative, and 4pT16 will certainly kill it entirely since both of the bonuses are so great.
Chimmichango wrote:I've been playing with different openers based on some of the suggestions here and I'd like to see what the rest of you are doing.

1) Pre-Pull...HT, Pot, Incarnation, Berserk, TF. Then open with Rake and start my rotation.
Cons-Need to burn CP's to get SR back up once the initial Glyphed version is about to drop and you lose a little up time on Buffs.

2) Pre-Pull...HT, Pot, Stealth. Then open with Rake and hold off using Incarnation/Berserk until the initial SR is about to fall off so as to minimize the number of CP's needed for SR during the fight.
Cons- Based on the fight can be tricky to get everything (Energy, TF, Berserk) lined up for Incarnation after the initial SR is about to fall off.

I'm finding better results with the first option but that seems to be due to my inability to get everything not only lined up for Incarnation but also having to account for various encounter mechanics which may keep me off the Boss. What's everyone else finding?
You definitely don't want to use TF + Berserk on pull, you're just wasting energy and setting it up to be incredibly difficult to burn off that 50 energy before Berserk ends. Incarnation on pull is an option, but if you're going to then definitely save Berserk and TF for a little later.

You also don't want to hold your cooldowns, it is absolutely vital to your damage that your first set of cooldowns are used while you still have both your trinket procs and your pre-potion up.
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Re: Pawkets' Feral DPS Guide & FAQ -- Updated for 6.0!

Post by Chimmichango » Thu Dec 04, 2014 8:07 pm

aggixx wrote:
Chimmichango wrote:I've been playing with different openers based on some of the suggestions here and I'd like to see what the rest of you are doing.

....................
You definitely don't want to use TF + Berserk on pull, you're just wasting energy and setting it up to be incredibly difficult to burn off that 50 energy before Berserk ends. Incarnation on pull is an option, but if you're going to then definitely save Berserk and TF for a little later.

You also don't want to hold your cooldowns, it is absolutely vital to your damage that your first set of cooldowns are used while you still have both your trinket procs and your pre-potion up.
Thanks for the quick reply and the advice.

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Re: Pawkets' Feral DPS Guide & FAQ -- Updated for 6.0!

Post by Acasta » Fri Dec 05, 2014 6:43 am

Hi :)

I need an advice:

A situation that I encounter quite regularly is:

I'm at 3 combopoints and crit with the next shred -> I am at 5 combopoints now,
My initial plan was to Heal at 4CB and use the bloodtalon-procs for refreshing rake (below 4seconds at this time), and then at 5 combopoints use the second bloodtalon-proc to refresh my rip after pooling energy (its normally around 14-15 seconds then, so I wait as long as possible to refresh it (till 90 energy; assuming of cause my new snapshot is not alot better).
So my conflict is: Immediate refresh of rake vs waiting for finisher.

I normally dont have the energy to cast a bite (below 50) + refresh my rake in time; + even if I have, Rip would probably drop for a few seconds. On the other hand: refreshing rake at 5 combopoint wastes one combopoint. The other possiblity would be to refresh Rip early and "waste 3-6-seconds on it + no energypooling, but not loose Rake/Rip-uptime and combopoints.

Normally I just cast rake at 5 combopoints, and tell my self its the better of the 2 bad decisions, and that the shred crit before was just a bonus; instead of a dps-loss.

Is there a better way to handle it? Can I avoid these situations with better pre-planning? I only play Feral since 3 weeks so maybe I am missing something.

Short version: 5 Combopoints; Rake needs immediate refresh but I would waste around 3-4 seconds of my Rip + no energy-pooling for the next CP-cycle. Best of the worse solutions?


Edit: 2nd question :D
In the dps-rankings your shown itemlevel is only 638 (along that level) Aggix/Pawket, while your amory shows a lot better gear. Does Warcraftlogs mess up the itemlevel, or did you really only wear 638 on your first Highmaul-kills?

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Re: Pawkets' Feral DPS Guide & FAQ -- Updated for 6.0!

Post by Amitty » Fri Dec 05, 2014 8:53 am

#5ComboPointsProblems #LowCritProblems

In the situation you described I would probably F. Bite, Rake and pray for OoC procs to refresh my Rip in time with BT. But at this point considering my laughable amount of Mastery letting Rip drop for a couple of seconds is probably not a big deal. Ferocious Bite on the other hand hits like a truck.

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Re: Pawkets' Feral DPS Guide & FAQ -- Updated for 6.0!

Post by Metoxx » Fri Dec 05, 2014 10:08 am

@Acasta:

this is my thought process:
i wait for Rake uptime to be under 3sec.. (cause i need like 1s to "look around" for all buffs/debuffs + calculation)
if: Rip uptime > TF CDtime --> FB - Rake - Shred til TF - TF - (Shred if needed) - Rip
else: if Rip uptime > 10/11s --> FB - Rake - (hope for procs [0-energy-cast / crit procs]) - Shred til 5 - Rip
else: Rip uptime < 10s --> Rip - Rake ... (and wasting max of 2s Rip)

...but that's just the way how i do it.

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Re: Pawkets' Feral DPS Guide & FAQ -- Updated for 6.0!

Post by Dysheki » Fri Dec 05, 2014 10:12 am

It looks like he was using last tier's 4 piece which would probably explain the low ilevel.

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Re: Pawkets' Feral DPS Guide & FAQ -- Updated for 6.0!

Post by Kelmor » Fri Dec 05, 2014 8:42 pm

So are trinkets still simming like they are on the previous page of this thread, or more like the main page?

For example, I currently have the Coin(665), a Heroic Scales of Doom(670_), and the Skull of War(640).

I currently use the first two, but would Skull of War start scaling higher than Doom at Stage 3 (670)?

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