Pawkets' Feral DPS Guide & FAQ -- Updated for 6.2.3!

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Treeroot
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Re: Pawkets' Feral DPS Guide & FAQ -- Updated for 6.0!

Post by Treeroot » Sun Dec 28, 2014 8:28 pm

Hey all

Im not sure because my item compare list and simulation craft showed different results.

I have the choice between these trinkets:

http://www.wowhead.com/item=113612&bonus=566
http://www.wowhead.com/item=113853&bonus=40:566
http://www.wowhead.com/item=112318&bonus=525
http://www.wowhead.com/item=118876

Which two should i use?

My Armory-Link: http://eu.battle.net/wow/de/character/O ... t/advanced

Many thanks in advance
Treeroot

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Re: Pawkets' Feral DPS Guide & FAQ -- Updated for 6.0!

Post by Sllibshift » Sun Dec 28, 2014 11:20 pm

Lucky Coin + Scales of Doom if your Skull is 1 of 3.

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Re: Pawkets' Feral DPS Guide & FAQ -- Updated for 6.0!

Post by smugler » Mon Dec 29, 2014 11:38 am

Nayni wrote:Hotw is pretty much dead ever since they fixed it on the beta.

The only thing it was good for was a healing boost but that's pretty much even'd out aswell with the latest nerfs.



On Imperator I just jump thrash and pool energy otherwise.
you can use hotw for tectus mythic on last phase when there are many adds, being in bear thrashing is the best AE, better than kittie AE

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Re: Pawkets' Feral DPS Guide & FAQ -- Updated for 6.0!

Post by Nayni » Mon Dec 29, 2014 11:53 am

smugler wrote:
Nayni wrote:Hotw is pretty much dead ever since they fixed it on the beta.

The only thing it was good for was a healing boost but that's pretty much even'd out aswell with the latest nerfs.



On Imperator I just jump thrash and pool energy otherwise.
you can use hotw for tectus mythic on last phase when there are many adds, being in bear thrashing is the best AE, better than kittie AE
It's not, i tried it before. You have to spec full guardian for it to actualy be effective.

Hotw translates into the ability to tank, not the ability to damage like a tank. Thrash damage does not get buffed and it's far from effective aoe. You're way better of rake spreading and getting BT thrashes in as cat.
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Treeroot
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Re: Pawkets' Feral DPS Guide & FAQ -- Updated for 6.0!

Post by Treeroot » Mon Dec 29, 2014 2:26 pm

Sllibshift wrote:Lucky Coin + Scales of Doom if your Skull is 1 of 3.
Thank you Slibshift. And if it would be 3 of 3?

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Re: Pawkets' Feral DPS Guide & FAQ -- Updated for 6.0!

Post by Nayni » Mon Dec 29, 2014 7:29 pm

Treeroot wrote:
Sllibshift wrote:Lucky Coin + Scales of Doom if your Skull is 1 of 3.
Thank you Slibshift. And if it would be 3 of 3?
I just coined Mythic scales today and actualy did sims to compare a 3/3 Skull of War with the Mythic Scales.
Using the scales averages in the same, if not less DPS.


Personaly I enjoy playing with Skull of War, it lines up perfectly with cooldowns and Coin which every feral should be using. It also gives the most valuable proc which is massive crit. The insane crit proc makes your burst moments so much easier to pull off and so much more reliable and smooth because critting grants an extra combo point.

I think unless I'm full Mythic geared with massive amounts of crit in my gear, i'll keep using Skull of War for consistent and reliable damage.
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Re: Pawkets' Feral DPS Guide & FAQ -- Updated for 6.0!

Post by aggixx » Tue Dec 30, 2014 10:01 am

Chaiz wrote:Don't we lose our mastery benefits when shifting out of cat form?
No, they changed that for this expansion so that everything that affects our bleeds still works in caster form.
Nayni wrote:Hotw is pretty much dead ever since they fixed it on the beta.

The only thing it was good for was a healing boost but that's pretty much even'd out aswell with the latest nerfs.
The HotW nerf only affected PvP combat.
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Re: Pawkets' Feral DPS Guide & FAQ -- Updated for 6.0!

Post by Symisch » Tue Dec 30, 2014 11:39 am

Hi all,

On forehand thanks for all the feral work on this forum..its amazing. Next to that i have a question regarding stat weights for feral druids in 6.0..anyone has them for me?

Ive seen the stat weights on other forums ..but i would like to know them from the incrowd here :)

Thanks in advance..

Humble feral,

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Re: Pawkets' Feral DPS Guide & FAQ -- Updated for 6.0!

Post by Meaningless » Tue Dec 30, 2014 1:54 pm

You should sim your own character and enable stat scaling in it, this way you'll get the best stat weights for your character. Just remember to resim when you get new gear as the stat weights changes :)
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Re: Pawkets' Feral DPS Guide & FAQ -- Updated for 6.0!

Post by Sibylle » Tue Dec 30, 2014 2:38 pm

Symisch wrote:Hi all,

On forehand thanks for all the feral work on this forum..its amazing. Next to that i have a question regarding stat weights for feral druids in 6.0..anyone has them for me?

Ive seen the stat weights on other forums ..but i would like to know them from the incrowd here :)

Thanks in advance..

Humble feral,

Treesong
They're on the first page of this thread, in aggixx's guide, check it out.
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Re: Pawkets' Feral DPS Guide & FAQ -- Updated for 6.0!

Post by Nayni » Thu Jan 01, 2015 9:31 am

Did some evaluating on my gear today to update my Pawn stat weights and came to a few obvious but yet somewhat funny conclusions.

Last week I was somewhat lucky enough to coin a Scales of Doom from Mythic butcher and I've been struggling to decide wether I should use it over my 3/3 Skull of War or not. When I first simmed my character the DPS gain on single target was 0 (exacly). I just thought about both of the procs and decided I'd keep using Skull of War, Critical strikes eased up the rotation and getting double combo points from crits looked alot more valuable then Multistrike RPPM.

Since the last time I updated my Pawn stat weights was when we started doing normals I figured, time to update. My first results I ended up with:

Single Target:
Image
2 Target:
Image


To my surprise Multistrike was surpassing Critical Strike. After a closer look, it's because with the Skull of War proc I was pushing my Critical strike rating over 50%. Meaning that during Incarnation I was wasting Crit as a stat on all of my Shreds (stealth bonus). Since Skull of War procs every 2 minutes it syncs up with 1/2 or 2/3 Incarnations (depending on the fights length).

I made another Sim with Scales of Doom:

Single Target:
Image

2 Target:
Image

That looks more like it. The DPS difference is about 200 dps at this point.

Skull of War 3/3 is a very powerful trinket, but as soon as you reach over 33% unbuffed crit (catform included) you're starting to waste one of the most powerful stat a feral has. I guess there aren't to many options at this gear level anyway, still something interesting though. Thought I'd post it here aswell.
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Re: Pawkets' Feral DPS Guide & FAQ -- Updated for 6.0!

Post by aggixx » Thu Jan 01, 2015 9:57 am

You're missing a major contributing factor: you have almost no multistrike on your gear at all which inflates its value relative to the other stats. If it wasn't for that multistrike wouldn't be worth enough to actually surpass crit even with the soft capping thing.

And be careful not to overplay the impact of the crit soft cap. Yes it does significantly affect the value of the stat when you reach it, but its still generally going to be our best stat unless you have a pretty disproportionate stat breakdown (like you do).
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Re: Pawkets' Feral DPS Guide & FAQ -- Updated for 6.0!

Post by Nayni » Thu Jan 01, 2015 10:04 am

Ofcourse, but even with my disproportionate stat breakdown it already starts showing. As I stated, the first sim didn't even show a DPS difference between both trinkets, so the value of Crit is obviously still very high even when going over the soft cap. It's just something I found somewhat interesting, didn't really think about it all that much when collecting pieces while progressing trough Highmaul.
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Re: Pawkets' Feral DPS Guide & FAQ -- Updated for 6.0!

Post by aggixx » Thu Jan 01, 2015 12:06 pm

I figured I'd make some pretty charts and stuff since its an interesting topic and something that probably deserves a closer look. First off, there are two places where we can expect to see inflection points in the value of crit, or four if you've got a trinket with a crit proc. For the sake of this example I'll be looking at using a stage 3 Skull of War.
  • Soft capped w/ Skull of War 3 + Mark of the Thunderlord: 30.63% crit, 1,169 crit rating (1113 from gear)
  • Soft capped w/ Skull of War 3: 35.4% crit, 1,694 crit rating (1613 from gear)
  • Soft capped w/ Mark of the Thunderlord: 48.23% crit, 3,105 crit rating (2957 from gear)
  • Soft capped: 53.00% crit, 3,630 crit rating (3457 from gear)
To see what happens at these points we can run a scaling plot with a character whose stats are near these levels. In both graphs I've added a red line to indicate where these points lie on the graph.

For the first two points where the character soft caps during a proc:
Image
Here you can tell the slope of the line does change at those points if you look carefully, but the effect is pretty minimal. You can see crit is still higher valued than multistrike at all points on the graph.

And the full-time or half-time soft cap points:
Image
In this case the inflection points are very well defined, you can clearly see that before the first point crit and multistrike have a very similar value, after Crit is slightly lower, and then after the 3rd point its even worse.

These results are produced with a massively scaled up profile (770 item level) since its necessary to get that high of a crit rating value, so its not anything that will be relevant in the near future. It will likely come into play at some point in the last tier and it is more achievable with a high number of sockets (this profile has none).

But really looking at scaling plots is oversimplifying things because it means you're looking at the stat in a vacuum. In reality, stat value consists almost entirely of shifting budget between one stat to another which means the interaction gets more complicated because putting points into stat A increases the value of stat B and vice versa. To illustrate this we can do a reforge plot:
Image
and surprisingly the results match up quite well with the previous graph: it indicates that, at least for this stat distribution, it is ideal to stack crit up to 48.23% crit and then switch to preferring Multistrike. Presumably if you had enough gear, an even better solution would be to stack crit up to 53% and then switch to using a different weapon enchant.

So essentially the takeaway from what you posted is that when you hit those lower thresholds of crit rating, while its value doesn't drop enough for 1 multistrike rating to be worth more than 1 crit rating (unless you're sorely lacking it), it does fall a non-negligible amount which can have an impact on non-1:1 comparisons like the two trinkets you were comparing.
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Re: Pawkets' Feral DPS Guide & FAQ -- Updated for 6.0!

Post by Nayni » Thu Jan 01, 2015 12:57 pm

Yeah that pretty much confirms what I figured out looking at my personal plots at this period in time.

Like obviously I wasn't going to blindly follow the stat prio's and I understand there are limits on stat budgets and stuff. The thing that was interesting for me is that I was pretty much convinced I wasn't going to drop Skull of War until the end of Mythic Highmaul gear (maybe an exception beeing the trinket beeing Warforged/Socket/Both).

What was interesting to me was the fact the trinket beeing just regular Mythic already showed having effect on my gear, in a greater way then I expected it to be.

Pretty nice read though, I'm not all that fancy with Simcraft when it comes to all the graphs and stuff but you sorta put it nicely there :)
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Re: Pawkets' Feral DPS Guide & FAQ -- Updated for 6.0!

Post by Aussa » Fri Jan 02, 2015 8:44 am

@Naeyni

You are using 3/3 upgraded legs with crit mastery.

Are they the best we can get untill mythic highmaul drops or is the 5 ilvl increase from the HC legs better despite the poor itemization?

It's one of my only pieces of gear I need to upgrade from 640 gear and I could craft them myself, but upgrading would either take quite a while or cost a lot.
So advice about how good the crafted legs are compared to the dropped ones.

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Re: Pawkets' Feral DPS Guide & FAQ -- Updated for 6.0!

Post by Nayni » Fri Jan 02, 2015 12:53 pm

Aussa wrote:@Naeyni

You are using 3/3 upgraded legs with crit mastery.

Are they the best we can get untill mythic highmaul drops or is the 5 ilvl increase from the HC legs better despite the poor itemization?

It's one of my only pieces of gear I need to upgrade from 640 gear and I could craft them myself, but upgrading would either take quite a while or cost a lot.
So advice about how good the crafted legs are compared to the dropped ones.
Upgraded items go to 670 aswell (armory still doesn't show that for some reason). The only option for legs in Highmaul are the ones from Imperator with fairly bad itemization.

I crafted + upgraded legs with Crit/Mastery as those would be viable in both ST and Cleave situation and are far better then the HC Imperator ones. Since the first chance I would have at leggings that were better would be Mythic Imperator it was the safest bet to upgrade together with Skull of War.

Personaly I would always upgrade legs if you can find a pair with either Crit/Mastery or Crit/Multistrike.
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Re: Pawkets' Feral DPS Guide & FAQ -- Updated for 6.0!

Post by aggixx » Fri Jan 02, 2015 1:07 pm

I just rerolled my legs relentlessly until I got crit/mastery, took me 11 tries if I remember correctly. The cost to reroll the item several times is pretty small compared to the cost of upgrading it so its not that big of a deal, its just very random so don't be surprised if it takes a huge amount of tries.
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Re: Pawkets' Feral DPS Guide & FAQ -- Updated for 6.0!

Post by Aussa » Fri Jan 02, 2015 4:04 pm

Thanks a ton for the answer, both of you - didn't realize it upgraded to 670 - makes it far more worth than I thought!

But yeah, I got enough leather to reroll around 20ish times so it should be fine :P
Gonna craft em later this week then, since mythic imperator is quite a ways away for my current guild.

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Re: Pawkets' Feral DPS Guide & FAQ -- Updated for 6.0!

Post by kiyou » Sun Jan 04, 2015 8:12 am

Kinda new to feral Play, i love the guide however, Do u suggest to never snapshot RIP, Even if u have BT procc with Tf and its got like 20 secs left on Rip?

Thanks Kiyou

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Re: Pawkets' Feral DPS Guide & FAQ -- Updated for 6.0!

Post by Nayni » Sun Jan 04, 2015 8:36 am

kiyou wrote:Kinda new to feral Play, i love the guide however, Do u suggest to never snapshot RIP, Even if u have BT procc with Tf and its got like 20 secs left on Rip?

Thanks Kiyou

Not when ur going to waste that many seconds.

The only part of an encounter you should focus on trying to snapshot it at a decent strength is when the boss is going near 25%. Only then would I justify to refresh Rip a few seconds earlier then you should to gain effect for the next 25%. Other then that you should never refresh Rip earlier then it's pandemic treshhold as you'll end up losing damage most likely.
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Re: Pawkets' Feral DPS Guide & FAQ -- Updated for 6.0!

Post by kiyou » Sun Jan 04, 2015 8:38 am

@Nayni Thanks very much for the fast reply, and cheers. was just something i had to get clarified. :D

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Re: Pawkets' Feral DPS Guide & FAQ -- Updated for 6.0!

Post by aggixx » Sun Jan 04, 2015 9:55 am

I've been considering explicitly adding it to the guide and I suppose I'll do that now. I really don't understand why people get that impression, but hey who knows.
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Re: Pawkets' Feral DPS Guide & FAQ -- Updated for 6.0!

Post by aggixx » Sun Jan 04, 2015 5:41 pm

Added opener section and tweaked a few things including mentioning Rip in the clipping section.
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Re: Pawkets' Feral DPS Guide & FAQ -- Updated for 6.0!

Post by TheLOOGE » Mon Jan 05, 2015 3:07 am

aggixx wrote:Added opener section and tweaked a few things including mentioning Rip in the clipping section.
You could probably do a short video on just Rip clipping alone based on how many of the same questions this forum sees pertaining to it. You could title it, "Rip in pepperonis: A guide on how not to fuck up Rip." lol... :roll:

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