Pawkets' Feral DPS Guide & FAQ -- Updated for 6.2.3!

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Nayni
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Re: Pawkets' Feral DPS Guide & FAQ -- Updated for 6.0!

Post by Nayni » Tue Jan 13, 2015 5:12 pm

Dwade wrote: was just about to upgrade my skull to 670 but I got scales of doom today, would you suggest still upgrading the skull or just not bother? Using the coin for my other trinket for reference.
If the Scales is Mythic I'd play with the Scales, if it's just heroic, I'd stick with Skull of War.

The difference in the end is fairly to very minimal (depending on your gear/stats)
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Morcanon
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Re: Pawkets' Feral DPS Guide & FAQ -- Updated for 6.0!

Post by Morcanon » Wed Jan 14, 2015 10:17 am

hi guys sorry if my question has been already done (but i'm not able to find any thing with the search button) and sorry for my English that is not my mother tongue.
i've seen that you often talk about opener but never about normal rotation after opener. could you kindly suggest me the right normal rotation because i feel i'm doing something wrong during the encounter in HM

best regards
Umberto

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Re: Pawkets' Feral DPS Guide & FAQ -- Updated for 6.0!

Post by Paloro » Wed Jan 14, 2015 3:01 pm

Morcanon wrote:hi guys sorry if my question has been already done (but i'm not able to find any thing with the search button) and sorry for my English that is not my mother tongue.
i've seen that you often talk about opener but never about normal rotation after opener. could you kindly suggest me the right normal rotation because i feel i'm doing something wrong during the encounter in HM

best regards
Umberto
It's more of a priority then a rotation.

You should:
Maintain Savage Roar
Maintain Rake
Maintain Rip
Build Combo Points with Shred
Use Ferocious Bite if:
You have 5 combo points
>=50 energy
Rip/SR are not in Pandemic
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Re: Pawkets' Feral DPS Guide & FAQ -- Updated for 6.0!

Post by myrdev » Wed Jan 14, 2015 11:37 pm

Paloro wrote: It's more of a priority then a rotation.
...
Use Ferocious Bite if:
You have 5 combo points
>=50 energy
Rip/SR are not in Pandemic
If you are at 5cp prepping for a rip/bite, with rake expiring, simc will not rake until you spend the 5cp. Is this correct? I must be doing something wrong if so, because when I follow it religiously, I sit 96-97% uptime, vs 99-100% when I just clip at the last safe moment of pandemic and waste the CP. The simc model sits 98.6%.

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Re: Pawkets' Feral DPS Guide & FAQ -- Updated for 6.0!

Post by aggixx » Thu Jan 15, 2015 5:07 am

myrdev wrote:If you are at 5cp prepping for a rip/bite, with rake expiring, simc will not rake until you spend the 5cp. Is this correct? I must be doing something wrong if so, because when I follow it religiously, I sit 96-97% uptime, vs 99-100% when I just clip at the last safe moment of pandemic and waste the CP. The simc model sits 98.6%.
Yes that's correct. There are intracacies that trying to handle would add a ton of garbage to the action list and make no significant impact on the output of the simulation, so as a result SimC doesn't handle some edge cases very elegantly.
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Re: Pawkets' Feral DPS Guide & FAQ -- Updated for 6.0!

Post by Xero » Thu Jan 15, 2015 7:02 am

I've been opening slightly differently, is this a big dps loss?

Healing touch
Prowl
Prepot
Rake
Berserk+Incarnation (I know waiting a global is better but it's just another keybind for what I imagine would be a miniscule dps loss
Shred to 5cp
Tiger's Fury + Rip
Shred to 5cp
Blood talons + Bite <--- still affected by tiger's fury
Rake <--- affected by tiger's fury.
Etc.


Is it worth refreshing rake STRAIGHT AFTER I pop tiger's fury, or just wait till it's closer to hitting pandemic, either way I get a tiger's fury buffed rake up.

Does using berserk and tiger's fury together at 5cp make a massive difference combared to using it with Incarnation instead? Is the whole idea behind using it earlier is so you dump more energy before you use tiger's fury?

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Re: Pawkets' Feral DPS Guide & FAQ -- Updated for 6.0!

Post by aggixx » Thu Jan 15, 2015 10:34 am

Xero wrote:Is it worth refreshing rake STRAIGHT AFTER I pop tiger's fury, or just wait till it's closer to hitting pandemic, either way I get a tiger's fury buffed rake up.

Does using berserk and tiger's fury together at 5cp make a massive difference combared to using it with Incarnation instead? Is the whole idea behind using it earlier is so you dump more energy before you use tiger's fury?
Well, there's no reason to refresh it immediately after since you need Bloodtalons first for it to be better than the one you applied in your opener. Before FB vs after FB is probably a wash but I'd tend to think before is better because you're getting that damage multiplier up sooner which allows it to benefit from your procs/potion for a longer period of time before they fade.

Massive difference? No. The point is to keep from energy capping as much as possible.
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Re: Pawkets' Feral DPS Guide & FAQ -- Updated for 6.0!

Post by Saij » Thu Jan 15, 2015 10:40 am

I'm using Bersekr + Inkarnation after the first use of Tiger's Fury. Or should I use it right from the beginning?

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Re: Pawkets' Feral DPS Guide & FAQ -- Updated for 6.0!

Post by Khorpawret » Thu Jan 15, 2015 10:50 am

Not sure if this has been asked before, but what do you find to be the most optimal use for LDSC? At the moment, I have it bound to my burst macro and only use it in tandem with Berserk\Incarnation\Tiger's Fury (the macro). However, is it acceptable or more beneficial to use the trinket with Tiger's Fury alone (since it's off cooldown a full minute before incarnation and berserk)?

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Re: Pawkets' Feral DPS Guide & FAQ -- Updated for 6.0!

Post by aggixx » Thu Jan 15, 2015 10:58 am

Saij wrote:I'm using Bersekr + Inkarnation after the first use of Tiger's Fury. Or should I use it right from the beginning?
No reason to Incarnation anytime other than immediately after Rake (or 1s before pull) unless you want to macro all 3 together for the sake of being lazy / keybind reasons (which is a small loss, as mentioned).
Khorpawret wrote:Not sure if this has been asked before, but what do you find to be the most optimal use for LDSC? At the moment, I have it bound to my burst macro and only use it in tandem with Berserk\Incarnation\Tiger's Fury (the macro). However, is it acceptable or more beneficial to use the trinket with Tiger's Fury alone (since it's off cooldown a full minute before incarnation and berserk)?
Stack it with cooldowns as often as possible while not losing usages based on the fight's duration. For example if its a 3 minute fight you'd use it on cooldown, if its a 4 minute fight you'd hold your second coin to go with your second Berserk/Inc, if its a 5 minute fight you'd hold you 2nd Berserk/Inc to go with your 3rd coin, etc.

I should probably add this to the FAQ because it does get asked fairly often.
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Re: Pawkets' Feral DPS Guide & FAQ -- Updated for 6.0!

Post by Khorpawret » Thu Jan 15, 2015 11:01 am

aggixx wrote:
Saij wrote:I'm using Bersekr + Inkarnation after the first use of Tiger's Fury. Or should I use it right from the beginning?
No reason to Incarnation anytime other than immediately after Rake (or 1s before pull) unless you want to macro all 3 together for the sake of being lazy / keybind reasons (which is a small loss, as mentioned).
Khorpawret wrote:Not sure if this has been asked before, but what do you find to be the most optimal use for LDSC? At the moment, I have it bound to my burst macro and only use it in tandem with Berserk\Incarnation\Tiger's Fury (the macro). However, is it acceptable or more beneficial to use the trinket with Tiger's Fury alone (since it's off cooldown a full minute before incarnation and berserk)?
Stack it with cooldowns as often as possible while not losing usages based on the fight's duration. For example if its a 3 minute fight you'd use it on cooldown, if its a 4 minute fight you'd hold your second coin to go with your second Berserk/Inc, if its a 5 minute fight you'd hold you 2nd Berserk/Inc to go with your 3rd coin, etc.

I should probably add this to the FAQ because it does get asked fairly often.
That's what I thought, but I wanted some confirmation from a more experienced feral. Thanks, friend.

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Re: Pawkets' Feral DPS Guide & FAQ -- Updated for 6.0!

Post by Leafkiller » Fri Jan 16, 2015 3:32 am

aggixx wrote:
myrdev wrote:If you are at 5cp prepping for a rip/bite, with rake expiring, simc will not rake until you spend the 5cp. Is this correct? I must be doing something wrong if so, because when I follow it religiously, I sit 96-97% uptime, vs 99-100% when I just clip at the last safe moment of pandemic and waste the CP. The simc model sits 98.6%.
Yes that's correct. There are intracacies that trying to handle would add a ton of garbage to the action list and make no significant impact on the output of the simulation, so as a result SimC doesn't handle some edge cases very elegantly.
Actually, I noticed the 5 cp Rake edge case and tried a variety of tweaks to the simc script to see if I could increase the dps by getting the Rake in before it fell off. I was unable to do so. As near as I can tell currently the value of combo points/FB is extremely high. Consider, if you Rake with 5 cp while you are pooling energy for a FB, you will be delaying the FB - which might become a Rip instead - or even an SR. I even tried some scenarios where I tried to anticipate Rake falling off when the script hit 4 CPs, but was unable to find anything that moved the dps needle. As near as I can tell, the sim script is correct right now - if you hit 5cps and are pooling energy for a FB, let Rake fall off for a couple of seconds. It did surprise me.

Maybe one of you can find a solution I missed for this case.

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Re: Pawkets' Feral DPS Guide & FAQ -- Updated for 6.0!

Post by aggixx » Fri Jan 16, 2015 3:33 am

Yes that's basically my experience trying to account for it as well.
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Re: Pawkets' Feral DPS Guide & FAQ -- Updated for 6.0!

Post by Thbrius » Fri Jan 16, 2015 3:55 pm

Anyway to Sim how the Darkmoon trinket will be at 680 ilvl?

https://twitter.com/WarcraftDevs/status ... 6145902592

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Re: Pawkets' Feral DPS Guide & FAQ -- Updated for 6.0!

Post by Rines » Mon Jan 19, 2015 3:23 am

Hey, cheers for the awesome guide.
As Thbrius mentioned, had any thoughts on the new upgraded 4/4 Skull of War as well as the new coming Alchemy trinket with Mastery & an Agility proc?
Which seems to be on 55s ICD or so I've read.

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Re: Pawkets' Feral DPS Guide & FAQ -- Updated for 6.0!

Post by aggixx » Tue Jan 20, 2015 11:51 am

It beats anything of its item level or lower across the board. For single target its comparable with Mythic Scales, and for cleave or AoE you could easily use it until you have 2 Mythic BRF trinkets.
http://imgur.com/a/g62vZ
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Re: Pawkets' Feral DPS Guide & FAQ -- Updated for 6.0!

Post by msrobinson » Tue Jan 20, 2015 7:43 pm

aggixx, what are your thoughts on the new tier piece bonus and how it will affect our play?

I don't want to look at the simcraft single target dps for 695 cuz I feel like that is a worthless simulation because no one will reasonably be at that item level without the tier bonus, so its useless to look at them. Although it does scare me a bit to see ferals so very low on single target, after being high for so long. I'm thinking the set bonuses will help out our aoe damage immensely, without doing much to help out our single target damage.

It seems to me that the 2 piece will make us incredible at multi target (increased energy regen from rake uptime will allow us to keep up thrash without clearcasting, which will give us higher energy regen which will allow us to swipe spam with 20% increased damage, which will net 2 combo points per swipe due to critting which will allow us to keep up more rips which will net more energy regen). It seems like a super high ramp up time, but on aoe fights like mythic beast master, ferals should be doing insanely well. Do you think this is reasonable or that our aoe damage output is going to skyrocket, or is this wishful thinking?

And then about the 4 piece, do you know if every special attack will add an additional bleed, or just rewrite one currently? IE If we shred twice, do we get two bleeds, one based on each shred, or does the one bleed for shred refresh? I am kind of hoping it will do multiple instances, but I feel like Blizzard wouldn't do that as it would be nearly impossible to stay off energy cap on multi target during berserk, and we'd end up losing/wasting the 50 energy once berserk ends.

If there are multiple instances of the 4 piece bleed per ability use, thrash berserk swipe spam could be a substantial dps increase on 2+ targets, as damage output on swipe with 2 bleeding targets is higher than shred on one, if i recall correctly. Especially as it would be more sustainable due to the energy regen.

I guess, what is your overall impression of the tier set bonuses, and am i off the mark substantially with any of my thoughts here?

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Re: Pawkets' Feral DPS Guide & FAQ -- Updated for 6.0!

Post by Tinderhoof » Tue Jan 20, 2015 7:53 pm

msrobinson wrote:It seems to me that the 2 piece will make us incredible at multi target (increased energy regen from rake uptime will allow us to keep up thrash without clearcasting, which will give us higher energy regen which will allow us to swipe spam with 20% increased damage, which will net 2 combo points per swipe due to critting which will allow us to keep up more rips which will net more energy regen). It seems like a super high ramp up time, but on aoe fights like mythic beast master, ferals should be doing insanely well. Do you think this is reasonable or that our aoe damage output is going to skyrocket, or is this wishful thinking?
It is very good for Multi target fights. However you need to temper your expectations. We are only getting 1 energy per tick. At 6 targets Thrash will give back 6 energy every 2 seconds (and note it only procs on ticks not the initial hit). This is way better return than Haste will ever give us...however: This is not going to let us suddenly be able to spam anything let alone swipe. It will not help us at all for adds that need to die ASAP. Spreading Rake on all targets is a very long ramp up and needs a lot of seconds to be able to see any returns on. Extra energy return will help with that, but it won't suddenly make us Enh Shamans.
msrobinson wrote:And then about the 4 piece, do you know if every special attack will add an additional bleed, or just rewrite one currently? IE If we shred twice, do we get two bleeds, one based on each shred, or does the one bleed for shred refresh? I am kind of hoping it will do multiple instances, but I feel like Blizzard wouldn't do that as it would be nearly impossible to stay off energy cap on multi target during berserk, and we'd end up losing/wasting the 50 energy once berserk ends.
The 4p works exactly like a Mages Ignite. Every special just tacks on additional damage to the rolling bleed and extends the time. As a side note the 4p bleed does trigger the 2p. So in short we won't lose any damage by doing 2 Shreds in a row. We will get everything in the end.

Both bonuses are good. The 2p is a big boost to our cleave and multi target damage output. It doesn't help at all with our ability (or lack of) to quickly burst AoE add packs that have to die now. It will only help on fights where the target will last 30+ seconds.

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Re: Pawkets' Feral DPS Guide & FAQ -- Updated for 6.0!

Post by msrobinson » Tue Jan 20, 2015 8:28 pm

Tinderhoof wrote:
msrobinson wrote:It seems to me that the 2 piece will make us incredible at multi target (increased energy regen from rake uptime will allow us to keep up thrash without clearcasting, which will give us higher energy regen which will allow us to swipe spam with 20% increased damage, which will net 2 combo points per swipe due to critting which will allow us to keep up more rips which will net more energy regen). It seems like a super high ramp up time, but on aoe fights like mythic beast master, ferals should be doing insanely well. Do you think this is reasonable or that our aoe damage output is going to skyrocket, or is this wishful thinking?
It is very good for Multi target fights. However you need to temper your expectations. We are only getting 1 energy per tick. At 6 targets Thrash will give back 6 energy every 2 seconds (and note it only procs on ticks not the initial hit). This is way better return than Haste will ever give us...however: This is not going to let us suddenly be able to spam anything let alone swipe. It will not help us at all for adds that need to die ASAP. Spreading Rake on all targets is a very long ramp up and needs a lot of seconds to be able to see any returns on. Extra energy return will help with that, but it won't suddenly make us Enh Shamans.
msrobinson wrote:And then about the 4 piece, do you know if every special attack will add an additional bleed, or just rewrite one currently? IE If we shred twice, do we get two bleeds, one based on each shred, or does the one bleed for shred refresh? I am kind of hoping it will do multiple instances, but I feel like Blizzard wouldn't do that as it would be nearly impossible to stay off energy cap on multi target during berserk, and we'd end up losing/wasting the 50 energy once berserk ends.
The 4p works exactly like a Mages Ignite. Every special just tacks on additional damage to the rolling bleed and extends the time. As a side note the 4p bleed does trigger the 2p. So in short we won't lose any damage by doing 2 Shreds in a row. We will get everything in the end.

Both bonuses are good. The 2p is a big boost to our cleave and multi target damage output. It doesn't help at all with our ability (or lack of) to quickly burst AoE add packs that have to die now. It will only help on fights where the target will last 30+ seconds.
If there are any fights akin to Tectus, maybe even the Beastmaster fight in BRF, I could see it becoming incredibly good to the point where we could swipe spam.

Thank you for your quick response. I figured it was too good to be true, but it still seems a lot better than the mild meh it seems to be getting. I'm super excited. On long fights like Tectus, or council fights, I could see the 2 piece being strong enough to merit bringing thrash back into the rotation just for the energy regen on some fights. I'm really really hoping that blizzard is putting their cards for feral balance in BRF into the set bonuses so that they will really be as op as I think they are.

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Re: Pawkets' Feral DPS Guide & FAQ -- Updated for 6.0!

Post by aggixx » Tue Jan 20, 2015 8:31 pm

I don't want to rain on your parade but that's basically what this is going to be: Feral is going to suck on Beastmaster, with or without the 2p. We'll be single target DPS only and there are specs that will do better than us at it. I did the PTR testing when Swipe was bugged and we got 1 cp per crit ( = 5 CP swipes) and we still we're getting destroyed by almost every other spec.
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Re: Pawkets' Feral DPS Guide & FAQ -- Updated for 6.0!

Post by aggixx » Tue Jan 20, 2015 10:30 pm

To follow up on my earlier post here's a dual trinket comparison:
http://imgur.com/a/pqMb0
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Re: Pawkets' Feral DPS Guide & FAQ -- Updated for 6.0!

Post by Felucia » Wed Jan 21, 2015 3:04 pm

aggixx wrote:I don't want to rain on your parade but that's basically what this is going to be: Feral is going to suck on Beastmaster, with or without the 2p. We'll be single target DPS only and there are specs that will do better than us at it. I did the PTR testing when Swipe was bugged and we got 1 cp per crit ( = 5 CP swipes) and we still we're getting destroyed by almost every other spec.
I feared this would be the case. I hoped not, but i had the strong fear.
I wonder when/if they are going to rebalance our aoe. I feel like we need a aoe CP spender to be ever viable. Or Swipe has to do as much damage as a shred almost.

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Re: Pawkets' Feral DPS Guide & FAQ -- Updated for 6.0!

Post by aggixx » Wed Jan 21, 2015 8:36 pm

I updated the comparison in my last post, I had screwed up a couple of the profiles and they were showing bad results.
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Re: Pawkets' Feral DPS Guide & FAQ -- Updated for 6.0!

Post by Feraldrood » Thu Jan 22, 2015 4:50 pm

Did the Pawn profile change after all the haste that most classes got?

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Re: Pawkets' Feral DPS Guide & FAQ -- Updated for 6.0!

Post by aggixx » Thu Jan 22, 2015 4:57 pm

It did not, let me fix that now.

Edit: Updated.
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