Opening sequence.

Face-rippin fun.

Moderator: Forum Administrators

Unsullied
Posts: 5
Joined: Fri Dec 12, 2014 5:59 am

Opening sequence.

Post by Unsullied » Sat Dec 13, 2014 6:10 am

Good day guys
I got some questions regarding the opening sequence of feral.

1. The option to open with shred from stealth instead of rake? Cause you will refresh your rake as the second ability anyway, due to every single cooldown being popped after approaching from stealth.
I could see the result of it be a dps loss with the delay of rake for 2 seconds, but could shred actually do enough damage in the opener to cover that?
You may also wish to trigger Incarnation seperately prior to Berserk to prevent unnecessarily losing 1 second of the Berserk buff, but this is a small gain.
2. What about delaying incarnation with 3 sec in the opener burst? I know about losing 1 sec of berserk with popping it before Incarnation, but with popping incarnation 3 sec after pull it will result in being up for the second tiger's fury / bloodtalons, so you can get a new full duration with RIP / RAKE with the incarnation / Tiger's fury / Bloodtalons, and a new full duration of RIP / RAKE with 180% stronger bleeds sounds stronger than getting 1 extra second of berserk? Or am i missing something? :?

mallagin
Posts: 1
Joined: Thu Dec 19, 2013 8:34 pm

Re: Opening sequence.

Post by mallagin » Sun Dec 14, 2014 7:07 pm

I'm curious about this as well - I feel like I'm not optimally opening

tatuli
Posts: 17
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2014 6:04 pm

Re: Opening sequence.

Post by tatuli » Sun Dec 14, 2014 7:21 pm

Shred will hit for %20+ while target is bleeding and also cause of this (http://fluiddruid.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5180) problem i prefer opening with rake.

Rake, shred, TF, Inc, Berserk and you know what? john fucking madden! --> http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e388/ ... catdps.jpg

Nayni
Revered
Posts: 202
Joined: Sat Oct 18, 2014 4:51 pm

Re: Opening sequence.

Post by Nayni » Mon Dec 15, 2014 5:19 am

Currently doing the following:

Healing Touch
Prowl
Potion
Rake
Incarnation (The GCD makes my energy go up to about 90 again, with lust I'd be capping for a split mili second)
Shred to 5 CP (Skull of War will have proc'd by now so I'm getting 2 CP per Shred almost garanteed)
TF
Berserk
Lucky coin active (I prefer syncing it with TF as I'm gonna do a "dry" trinket pop mid fight before my 2nd incarnation)
Rip
Shred to 4-5CP
Healing Touch
Rake (If you've done it right you have 1 second left on TF to extend a full duration Rake with BT and TF and rake has just gone into Pandemic effect so you can safely refresh)

From here you just follow the priority sequence in the guide.

I've tried various things and this one seems to feel the most fluent to play. An alternative would be to pop Incarnation as I run in, but I prefer stealthing up to the boss. The 1 GCD from popping Incarnation after rake doesn't cost me all that much and the benefit of having the chance to apply a fully buffed Rake to extend the opening rake is pretty big.
Image
Naeyni | Kazzak EU

Redsea
Posts: 4
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2014 4:59 am

Re: Opening sequence.

Post by Redsea » Thu Dec 18, 2014 6:38 am

How do u guys manage to get to 100k burst. I can't get above 70k with 665 Ilvl :|

User avatar
aggixx
Exalted
Posts: 2292
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2011 7:49 pm
Contact:

Re: Opening sequence.

Post by aggixx » Thu Dec 18, 2014 9:33 am

Well, depends a lot on how you're measuring "burst", but 70k doesn't sound that far off depending on your trinkets. You certainly shouldn't be able to pull 100k, at least not without immaculate RNG causing you to crit every single attack.
ImageImage

User avatar
Meaningless
Honored
Posts: 77
Joined: Sat Aug 24, 2013 5:11 pm

Re: Opening sequence.

Post by Meaningless » Fri Dec 19, 2014 8:29 pm

HT
Prowl
Pre-pot
Rake
Incarnation
Shred to 5 CP
Berserk
Rip
Rake
Shred to 5 CP
TF
Bite
Shred to 5 CP
Bite
Shred to 5 CP
Bite
Shred to 3-4 CP and rake
Rip


No idea if this is optimal or anything but I get 2 bites up with BT + TF + Coin this way and a 3rd one in before my Rip goes off. This is not possible to do at lower gear levels tho.
I like it and I'll most likely stick to it, I constantly "burst" at around 95k and above 100k if I get lucky with crits/clearcasts (roughly 75k dps if you check the first 25 seconds). I haven't done any in depth testing on it but it feels right.

In terms of actual seconds on the delay on zerk and TF, its around 3 sec for zerk and roughly 7 seconds for TF
Image

User avatar
Kraineth
Revered
Posts: 331
Joined: Sun Apr 07, 2013 4:26 am
Contact:

Re: Opening sequence.

Post by Kraineth » Fri Dec 19, 2014 9:11 pm

I wouldn't wait that long for TF, and I wouldn't say getting to 5cps before berserk is a good idea either.

My opener always looks something like:

HT
Prowl
Prepot
Rake
Incarnation
Shred
Berserk+TF+Coin
Shred to 5
Rip

Sometimes adding in an extra shred before Berserk if we are using lust/heroism on pull, or if I got a clearcasting proc in the first few seconds. You can pretty much always get 3 bites off with trinkets up and not lose any Rip uptime, unless your crit RNG is bad.

User avatar
aggixx
Exalted
Posts: 2292
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2011 7:49 pm
Contact:

Re: Opening sequence.

Post by aggixx » Fri Dec 19, 2014 9:12 pm

@Meaningless: Snapshotting the Rip with TF will do more damage than trying to get the TF on two bites.

The absolute soonest I would Berserk if there is lust on pull is before Rip, if you do it any sooner than that you have an extremely high chance of energy capping, and even using it before Rip its not unlikely at all if you get a couple omen procs.

And in the case of no lust on pull, there is no compelling reason to use it any sooner. You're only using it ~3 seconds after Incarnation which is pretty much a non-issue 3 minutes later into the fight.

I also don't feel like your statement about 3 bites lines up with my experience at all. Its definitely worth going for the 3rd bite if you have lust, no doubt, but even during lust you can cause a short Rip downtime if you have bad crit RNG (I had it happen last night actually). Without lust, going for a 3rd bite becomes questionable and with poor crit RNG you're going to cause a pretty damn long Rip downtime of probably at least 5 seconds.
ImageImage

User avatar
Meaningless
Honored
Posts: 77
Joined: Sat Aug 24, 2013 5:11 pm

Re: Opening sequence.

Post by Meaningless » Sat Dec 20, 2014 7:27 pm

I've never had my rip fall of while doing 3 bites (with hero) :S My opener usually change if we pull without hero though..

I wonder how much dps i lose by not snapshotting my rip tho, any idea aggixx? The issue I usually have if I try to do TF with my rip is that I end up capping my energy.. :oops:
Image

User avatar
aggixx
Exalted
Posts: 2292
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2011 7:49 pm
Contact:

Re: Opening sequence.

Post by aggixx » Sat Dec 20, 2014 7:51 pm

You do have to get pretty unlucky I suppose, and the downtime isn't anything significant to question the benefit of having done the 3rd bite. You probably lose more damage from pushing back TF so far than the actual difference in damage it grants, the Rip only benefits from trinkets most of its duration whereas both FBs benefit completely so it brings them a little closer in terms of the damage you're modifying.
Meaningless wrote:The issue I usually have if I try to do TF with my rip is that I end up capping my energy.. :oops:
I don't see any reason to push back TF when you could push back Berserk instead, especially without the 4 piece bonus.
ImageImage

User avatar
Meaningless
Honored
Posts: 77
Joined: Sat Aug 24, 2013 5:11 pm

Re: Opening sequence.

Post by Meaningless » Sat Dec 20, 2014 8:54 pm

aggixx wrote:You do have to get pretty unlucky I suppose, and the downtime isn't anything significant to question the benefit of having done the 3rd bite. You probably lose more damage from pushing back TF so far than the actual difference in damage it grants, the Rip only benefits from trinkets most of its duration whereas both FBs benefit completely so it brings them a little closer in terms of the damage you're modifying.
Meaningless wrote:The issue I usually have if I try to do TF with my rip is that I end up capping my energy.. :oops:
I don't see any reason to push back TF when you could push back Berserk instead, especially without the 4 piece bonus.
Hmm I guess that is true.. all 3 of my bites are effected by my coin trinket aswell, which I feel is pretty big.. I'll be looking into it tomorrow, see if I can tweek some small stuff :D
Image

User avatar
Amitty
Honored
Posts: 151
Joined: Tue Jun 24, 2014 4:28 am

Re: Opening sequence.

Post by Amitty » Sun Dec 21, 2014 11:23 am

I'm also usually going for the 3rd Bite, but I TF my first Rip. OoC procs usually get me to Energy cap during Berserk.

Nayni
Revered
Posts: 202
Joined: Sat Oct 18, 2014 4:51 pm

Re: Opening sequence.

Post by Nayni » Sun Dec 21, 2014 12:18 pm

Unless my opener is complete garbage on RNG I'll do 3 bites.

Whenever I can get 2 bites in and go back to 4-5 CP before Rip goes below 8-9 seconds I'll do another bite and be able to get back to 5 CP to drop another rip before it ends (or maybe drop it for a split second but I still find that more value then refreshing to early).

Once in a while I'll be energy starved though and can't pull this off, then I'll just skip the 3rd bite and refresh my rip (usualy it'll be at like 6 seconds with a real shit opener rng)

Still doing the same opener I posted abit before, don't think delaying anything in the opener is good so I still prefer it this way.
Image
Naeyni | Kazzak EU

tatuli
Posts: 17
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2014 6:04 pm

Re: Opening sequence.

Post by tatuli » Thu Dec 25, 2014 4:38 am

What is the point of using berserk after incarnation and 5CPs ? Is it a dps loss if i use incarnation and berserk together?

User avatar
Stenhaldi
Exalted
Posts: 591
Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2011 4:49 am

Re: Opening sequence.

Post by Stenhaldi » Thu Dec 25, 2014 4:56 am

tatuli wrote:What is the point of using berserk after incarnation and 5CPs ? Is it a dps loss if i use incarnation and berserk together?
Several considerations:
1) You want to cast Incarnation with full energy and TF available (to maximize your energy available during Incarnation);
2) You typically want to cast Berserk either at medium-to-low energy or after TF (to avoid energy capping, especially during Bloodlust);
3) You don't want to have to spend a GCD on Incarnation when Berserk is up.

User avatar
Sibylle
Revered
Posts: 477
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2012 6:51 am
Location: Ireland

Re: Opening sequence.

Post by Sibylle » Thu Dec 25, 2014 7:41 am

Uff, and I was so happy they have the same cooldown, so I macro-ed Berserk and Incarnation together... d'oh.
-Sibylle

"Not a shred of evidence exists in favor of the idea that life is serious." (Brendan Gill)

User avatar
Polihayse
Revered
Posts: 459
Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2014 10:46 am

Re: Opening sequence.

Post by Polihayse » Sat Dec 27, 2014 12:21 pm

I use incarnation on the pull now that I have my scales of doom trinket. That trinket seems to proc right away and having every gcd be one that does damage seems to be more beneficial. This is what my opener normally looks like:

Starting with Heroism:
Healing Touch
Prepot
Incarnation
Rake
Shred > (I sometimes get
Shred > clearcasting here.)
Rip (when I get below 20 energy I cast berserk)
Shred
Shred
Shred
Healing Touch
Tiger's Fury/Ferocious Bite
Rake
Shred
Shred
Healing Touch
Rip
More Shreds
Healing Touch
Another FB
Refresh Rake with BT when it has less than 3 seconds remaining.

Without Heroism:
Same thing, but cast Berserk after the first rake.

The scales of doom trinket will normally last until Ferocious Bite or the Rake after is cast.

Nayni
Revered
Posts: 202
Joined: Sat Oct 18, 2014 4:51 pm

Re: Opening sequence.

Post by Nayni » Sat Dec 27, 2014 1:24 pm

Polihayse wrote:I use incarnation on the pull now that I have my scales of doom trinket. That trinket seems to proc right away and having every gcd be one that does damage seems to be more beneficial. This is what my opener normally looks like:

Starting with Heroism:
Healing Touch
Prepot
Incarnation
Rake
Shred > (I sometimes get
Shred > clearcasting here.)
Rip (when I get below 20 energy I cast berserk)
Shred
Shred
Shred
Healing Touch
Tiger's Fury/Ferocious Bite
Rake
Shred
Shred
Healing Touch
Rip
More Shreds
Healing Touch
Another FB
Refresh Rake with BT when it has less than 3 seconds remaining.

Without Heroism:
Same thing, but cast Berserk after the first rake.

The scales of doom trinket will normally last until Ferocious Bite or the Rake after is cast.

Why delay TF when ur shredding to dump energy anyway in the start. You're popping Berserk to counter energy starvation but you might aswell replenish your energy with Tiger's Fury while ur at it and have a full bar to dump energy faster.

Also ur doing 1 FB between 2 rips, which in the opener is really poor. It's probably because u delay Tiger's Fury so much you can't fit that many in. If u actualy sync Tiger's Fury with Berserk and use all that energy to get back to 5 CP faster you could fit in 2-3 bites in before refreshing your Rip again.
Image
Naeyni | Kazzak EU

User avatar
Polihayse
Revered
Posts: 459
Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2014 10:46 am

Re: Opening sequence.

Post by Polihayse » Sun Dec 28, 2014 8:23 pm

I can fit in 2 bites in between the two rips, but I do the second rip with 13.5 seconds remaining on the rip that only benefits from savage roar. I'm not sure why I do this, but it feels like it sets me up in a good position for the rest of the fight. I'm going to look more into this.

Edit: When I refresh rip at the end of tf's duration, it sets me up to refresh rip 2 more times with both tf and bt. When rip is refreshed at 13.5 seconds and tf has 24.5 seconds remaining on its cooldown. This means tf will come off of cooldown when rip is at 31.2 - 24.5 = 6.7 seconds remaining. If tf is cast on cooldown, then it will come up again when rip is at .7 seconds remaining and if you get lucky enough, then you might be able to pull this off. I currently have 1207 haste and it is doable for me if we start with heroism. In order for this to work though, you need to cast tiger's fury almost immediately after it comes off of cooldown so you need to make sure to watch it as it is coming off of cooldown.

User avatar
aggixx
Exalted
Posts: 2292
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2011 7:49 pm
Contact:

Re: Opening sequence.

Post by aggixx » Tue Dec 30, 2014 10:07 am

Casting that 2nd Rip that early doesn't enable you to do that, you could clip later instead and achieve the exact same effect. You're better off biting there if you can still get the Rip refreshed before it fades.
ImageImage

User avatar
Ravajin
Posts: 7
Joined: Wed Jun 04, 2014 3:54 pm

Re: Opening sequence.

Post by Ravajin » Tue Dec 30, 2014 8:04 pm

I usually open like this:
Healing Touch - Prowl - Pre-pot
Rake (100% bonus from perk)
Shred
Incarnation (gcd regens for another shred)
Shred
Berserk
Bite(if 5 cp, else shred, should make you ooe)
Tiger's fury
Shred to 4-5 cp
Use instant healing touch from bite
If 5 cp - Rip - prowl - rake
if 4 cp - prowl - rake - rip
The initial rake should have ~4 sec left at refresh if properly timed
From then on shred to 4-5cp - healing touch - shred/ bite

This way you trade some ticks of rip for a full 50 energy(1/2 cost) bite plus you get the blood talons and tigers buff on the first rip.

Read something about the stealth perk for rake not working by just incarnation(?) hence the prowl :)

User avatar
aggixx
Exalted
Posts: 2292
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2011 7:49 pm
Contact:

Re: Opening sequence.

Post by aggixx » Tue Dec 30, 2014 11:41 pm

Ravajin wrote:This way you trade some ticks of rip for a full 50 energy(1/2 cost) bite plus you get the blood talons and tigers buff on the first rip.
Not worth it, see http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/15537526494#19
Ravajin wrote:Read something about the stealth perk for rake not working by just incarnation(?) hence the prowl :)
It does.
ImageImage

Flyx
Posts: 11
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2014 8:02 am

Re: Opening sequence.

Post by Flyx » Wed Dec 31, 2014 8:21 am

Healing Touch
Pre-pot
Prowl
Rake
Incarnation
Shred to 5CP
TF -> Rip
Berserk -> Shred to 5 CP
Healing Touch
FB
Rake
Shred to 5 CP
Healing Touch
FB
Shred to 5 CP
Healing Touch
FB
Shred to 5 CP
Healing Touch
Rip
Rake

I've only started playing feral this expansion, so any comments would be good on the above. Reasoning is below:

This is how I usually try and open. You get TF on the first Rip, FB and Rake refresh and 3 FB's before refreshing Rip. Also by delaying Berserk to after the first Rip you're halving energy costs on Shred and FB exclusively which seems more optimal from an energy saving perspective. If you're lucky with crits on shred and only need 3 casts per 5 CP you will also get the 3rd FB in during berserk. Only works with Heroism.

Without Heroism I drop the 3rd FB and berserk sooner, usually just after Incarnation, and take advantage of the 150 energy cap Berserk gives after using TF knowing my regen won't leave me with more than 100 energy (unless lucky with clearcast) when Berserk ends.

Nayni
Revered
Posts: 202
Joined: Sat Oct 18, 2014 4:51 pm

Re: Opening sequence.

Post by Nayni » Wed Dec 31, 2014 8:34 am

Should pop Berserk before TF.
Image
Naeyni | Kazzak EU

Post Reply