The Aoe situation

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Brutus
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The Aoe situation

Post by Brutus » Mon Jan 05, 2015 6:14 am

Long time lurker, very infrequent poster.

Guild is currently working on Mythic Imperator so I've had a lot of time (ie wipes) to think.

I know the general snap answer is "it sucks", but how do people feel about our Aoe? More and more I'm feeling somewhat out of a job as Feral, in that often people can out single target me (we have some monster casters), and where we used to be the king of little adds who didn't live too long Aoe, we're now abysmal to where I don't even bother doing anything.

Anyone foresee any buffs coming? Or changes? Because as it stands, going into Blackrock with the amount of Aoe there, I'm feeling a little less than confident.

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aggixx
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Re: The Aoe situation

Post by aggixx » Mon Jan 05, 2015 6:16 am

I would guess 60% chance of buffs in 6.1, probably not any sooner. Maybe we'll see a FB nerf + Rip buff targeted at PvP balance but that's probably it until 6.1.
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Tremnen
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Re: The Aoe situation

Post by Tremnen » Mon Jan 05, 2015 8:52 am

I cant imagine us not getting buffs unless we get a stupid strong set of tier bonuses for next tier. there is a reason I am collecting int necks, rings, trinkets right now because I think BRF is going to heavily compound our problems compared to other classes. How far does our 2 piece go in solving our aoe issues?

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Re: The Aoe situation

Post by Nayni » Mon Jan 05, 2015 2:47 pm

I pretty much learned to live with the fact we have some of the worst Aoe in the game.

The thing is, Feral is still really strong when it comes to straight up boss damage which is always needed. The only thing I would somehow like to be stronger in is dumping damage into an off-target for a short amount of time without beeing punished on my single target rotation as much as it is now.

I sorta enjoy the whole new view on classes and the fact they don't dont have to be good at everything. I think however there is still some balancing needed to completely make this happen though but overal I wouldn't want to trade an AOE buff for a single target nerf.

The overall damage meter isn't everything when it comes to downing a boss, take pride in aspects you are good at. My guild is currently progressing on Mythic Imperator and granted, I'm bottom DPS as soon as adds come into play but I am doing a large amount of boss damage, and I am raping the intermission mages which are also crucial to beating the boss.
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Brutus
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Re: The Aoe situation

Post by Brutus » Mon Jan 05, 2015 8:25 pm

Nayni wrote:My guild is currently progressing on Mythic Imperator and granted, I'm bottom DPS as soon as adds come into play but I am doing a large amount of boss damage, and I am raping the intermission mages which are also crucial to beating the boss.
I'm in exactly the same position. Boss and mages is why I'm brought. I just leave skada on Boss damage so I don't feel so awful haha. I'm just looking long term... I don't need or expect to be top, but when people are looking at comps, when there's many heavy aoe fights and we're known to be awful, it's a bit discouraging.

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Re: The Aoe situation

Post by TheLOOGE » Mon Jan 05, 2015 9:00 pm

Brutus wrote:
Nayni wrote:My guild is currently progressing on Mythic Imperator and granted, I'm bottom DPS as soon as adds come into play but I am doing a large amount of boss damage, and I am raping the intermission mages which are also crucial to beating the boss.
I'm in exactly the same position. Boss and mages is why I'm brought. I just leave skada on Boss damage so I don't feel so awful haha. I'm just looking long term... I don't need or expect to be top, but when people are looking at comps, when there's many heavy aoe fights and we're known to be awful, it's a bit discouraging.
As someone mentioned earlier, it's not that I don't mind having the 'niche' of being God-like single target or 2-3 target cleave... but when so much of Highmaul accentuates classes/specs that have this front loaded AoE potential, I agree, it feels like I'm dragging the raid down because I COULD be playing something more beneficial ...like Boomy. Now of course I'm not ready to jump ship, but if this course is maintained for Feral where we're only super good for boss damage and practically worthless for mass AoE, I'm not real certain what the future may hold for us as a spec but it definitely doesn't look very good.

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Re: The Aoe situation

Post by Zaxxan » Tue Jan 06, 2015 3:38 pm

Glad I saw this post, just coming back to the game since Cata and just started hitting 5 mans and Heroics and was getting kind of pissed at myself for being last on fights with AoE (yes yes 5 man DPS lololol, but it's what I can do right now). Been trying to break my fingers to keep rake applied on as much as possible with thras+swipe but unless I hit it absolutely perfectly I am not just last but last by a good amount. Single target I have been doing decent even against those with better gear. Seem to be a lot of fights with moving in them + switch targets, but that wasn't that hard to remember how to do :D

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Re: The Aoe situation

Post by Zaxxan » Tue Jan 06, 2015 3:38 pm

Glad I saw this post, just coming back to the game since Cata and just started hitting 5 mans and Heroics and was getting kind of pissed at myself for being last on fights with AoE (yes yes 5 man DPS lololol, but it's what I can do right now). Been trying to break my fingers to keep rake applied on as much as possible with thras+swipe but unless I hit it absolutely perfectly I am not just last but last by a good amount. Single target I have been doing decent even against those with better gear. Seem to be a lot of fights with moving in them + switch targets, but that wasn't that hard to remember how to do :D

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Re: The Aoe situation

Post by TheLOOGE » Tue Jan 06, 2015 8:22 pm

I got to thinking about this again today and it struck me... Didn't at one point in WoD Beta Thrash spread Rake to all afflicted targets? Wonder why it got axed? I think that could put us on the map. Maybe not for BURST AoE potential but most definitely sustained on a higher number of targets than 2-3.

I do remember Feral - Bear Thrash though... mmm. Broken things.

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Re: The Aoe situation

Post by Tinderhoof » Tue Jan 06, 2015 8:28 pm

It was a level 100 talent that was introduced at blizzcon. As it was an out of control idea (WAY TO OP) it was never actually done in the game. Unlike other abilities that get spread for free like Flame Shock Rake does a significant portion of our overall damage. Spreading it for free would be insane damage. Nerfing Rake to not be so out of control when on lots of targets for free would make it too weak for real use on single target. Thrash IS the weaker version of Rake. It puts a bleed on all targets for one cast. Making it put 2 bleeds was never a realistic idea.

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Re: The Aoe situation

Post by Naeru » Tue Jan 06, 2015 8:50 pm

Not to mention that rake spreading in combination with the T17 2-set. I could only dream of such energy regen!

I think feral is one of the most interesting and challenging dps specs in the game and it deserves all the love it can get. I think a buff wouldn't be unfair, but I hope Blizzard will buff it in the right place. I don't mind being weaker at AoE if it means I can rip single target faces like no tomorrow. I do agree with what was mentioned above, it would be nice to be able to switch targets and burst single adds (like on Imperator) without getting punished too much for not maintaining your rotation on the boss.

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Re: The Aoe situation

Post by Tinderhoof » Tue Jan 06, 2015 9:10 pm

I don't mind having my niche. Solid Cleave, and very good Single Target. If our AoE has to suffer I am ok with that. What I am not super happy is how big the gap is between us and every other melee class. There is nothing wrong with being bottom of the barrel if we are strong in other areas. It gets bad when the Barrel is 50' deep and everyone else is floating near the top. I think what is frustrating for me is that we get so little out of so much effort (Rake spreading). Everyone else has a much easier (or cheaper) way to perform their AoE rotation. Enh Shaman for example has several buttons involved in their AoE rotation, but they only suffer a little bit if they have to get out of range of their targets. Monks cleave ability costs no energy and also does not require melee range. There just isn't a lot of upside to our ability to do AoE Damage.

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Re: The Aoe situation

Post by Stenhaldi » Tue Jan 06, 2015 9:29 pm

Tinderhoof wrote:It was a level 100 talent that was introduced at blizzcon. As it was an out of control idea (WAY TO OP) it was never actually done in the game. Unlike other abilities that get spread for free like Flame Shock Rake does a significant portion of our overall damage. Spreading it for free would be insane damage. Nerfing Rake to not be so out of control when on lots of targets for free would make it too weak for real use on single target. Thrash IS the weaker version of Rake. It puts a bleed on all targets for one cast. Making it put 2 bleeds was never a realistic idea.
Rake (periodic effect only) does ~16% of our damage. While it might end up slightly too strong in combination with thrash and swipe, there's nothing inherently "WAY TOO OP" about rake spreading.

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Re: The Aoe situation

Post by Brutus » Wed Jan 07, 2015 11:07 am

What I love about the Feral community is we have never been a flailing group of complainers. There's several other classes who quite consistently scream endlessly on the forums if they feel they are not performing well (*cough* recent class buffs) but kitties seem to work around the issues quietly.

I know some of you definitely do reach out, and I think I can speak for those of us who aren't very vocal in the community -- thank you for what you do. In this case though, I wish we had more loud speakers. Ie. megaphones towards the devs. I don't think any of us want god status, I definitely do not, but the skill put in vs the payout of Feral currently does not seem quite balanced.

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Re: The Aoe situation

Post by Tinderhoof » Wed Jan 07, 2015 1:06 pm

Stenhaldi wrote:Rake (periodic effect only) does ~16% of our damage. While it might end up slightly too strong in combination with thrash and swipe, there's nothing inherently "WAY TOO OP" about rake spreading.
In our current gear favoring Crit Rake isn't overwhelming. If we had Rake spreading we would be gearing and playing differently. By the time we got our hands on the 2p things would already need to be looked at. While I would enjoy having something so effortless to do my AoE with I am not interested in being a yo-yo again with buffs and nerfs over and over as they try to balance the un-balanceable. There is a good reason they cut that as a feature before it ever hit alpha servers.

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Re: The Aoe situation

Post by ShmooDude » Wed Jan 07, 2015 2:22 pm

Personally, I was in favor of something similar to what warlocks have. Thrash would be an aoe version of rake, doing half its damage (so damage output would be basically the same as now) and mutually exclusive with normal rake. Then Swipe could be buffed some. The fact that you have to maintain both Thrash and Rake on is the problem to me (and what makes mastery so extremely powerful in multi-target fights).

But, that's pie in the sky thinking, doubt it'll happen this expansion, too much of a mechanical change.

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Re: The Aoe situation

Post by Futatabi » Wed Jan 07, 2015 7:59 pm

TheLOOGE wrote:
Brutus wrote:
Nayni wrote:My guild is currently progressing on Mythic Imperator and granted, I'm bottom DPS as soon as adds come into play but I am doing a large amount of boss damage, and I am raping the intermission mages which are also crucial to beating the boss.
I'm in exactly the same position. Boss and mages is why I'm brought. I just leave skada on Boss damage so I don't feel so awful haha. I'm just looking long term... I don't need or expect to be top, but when people are looking at comps, when there's many heavy aoe fights and we're known to be awful, it's a bit discouraging.
As someone mentioned earlier, it's not that I don't mind having the 'niche' of being God-like single target or 2-3 target cleave... .
At 695 ilv your single target is mediocre, and aoe is terrible. That's the problem. At least according to simulationcraft.org.
We are left without any niche. I'd like to have niche in beign God single target. Currently mages are god single + they do very well in fire for aoe.

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Re: The Aoe situation

Post by Ecerot » Thu Jan 08, 2015 6:44 am

Futatabi wrote:
At 695 ilv your single target is mediocre, and aoe is terrible. That's the problem. At least according to simulationcraft.org.
We are left without any niche. I'd like to have niche in beign God single target. Currently mages are god single + they do very well in fire for aoe.
Set bonuses are not taken into account for the moment. At 695 ilvl we will have access to those bonuses and simcraft will show new numbers, probably more favorable to us.

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Re: The Aoe situation

Post by teddabear » Thu Jan 08, 2015 10:50 am

If there is already a problem at 695 I wouldn't want to have to rely on set bonuses to address it. Also it got toned down from its original OP status and other classes have set bonuses too so that won't necessarily improve anything.

Also while insane set bonuses can be fun in the final tier before that point they are a pain. It sucks not being able to equip new gear because it will break your OP set bonus.

One caveat, while I often have concerns about Feral scaling this is the first serious information I have seen about it in WoD. Can anybody else confirm this? If it is this severe it sounds like the core mechanics need adjusting.

Nevermind I found it. I thought the Simulationcraft Mythic rankings were Highmaul gear but they are Black Foundry gear. Feral drops from 5th to 12th on Patchwerk when scaling from normal gear to mythic gear.
Last edited by teddabear on Sat Jan 10, 2015 2:34 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: The Aoe situation

Post by Futatabi » Thu Jan 08, 2015 2:08 pm

I saw results with set bonuses. Was about the same with other classes set bonuses :(

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Re: The Aoe situation

Post by teddabear » Sat Jan 10, 2015 3:21 am

Futatabi wrote:I saw results with set bonuses. Was about the same with other classes set bonuses :(
I recall the original 2pc was OP but it got nerfed in the beta.

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Re: The Aoe situation

Post by Tinderhoof » Sat Jan 10, 2015 3:20 pm

It was Op. Now its just very powerful.

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Re: The Aoe situation

Post by DomGF » Sun Jan 11, 2015 1:20 pm

Nayni wrote:I pretty much learned to live with the fact we have some of the worst Aoe in the game.

I sorta enjoy the whole new view on classes and the fact they don't dont have to be good at everything. I think however there is still some balancing needed to completely make this happen though but overal I wouldn't want to trade an AOE buff for a single target nerf.
I think rogues didn't get the memo, with latest buffs they are top single and top aoe. The excuse is, they were bad early on... applying that logic to justify a class being brokenly op sure will work out, no? Would not be surprised seeing 3 rogue stacks until next change...

We have to suffer and wait for BRF.

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Re: The Aoe situation

Post by smugler » Mon Jan 12, 2015 10:32 pm

I wanted to post something about this aswell, our aoe status.

My ilvl is above average and even when I join LFR with bad geared people and if there's an AOE situation, they will still outdmg me, then when they check their ilvl and mine, they think i'm bad, and its not the only reason I hate our aoe, but truth be said, our aoe should change, it should be a bit better, I shouldn't be at the top on dps and once few mobs come along and other classes AOE I instantly go from top to bottom.

I don't know where I can express this to the devs, but they really should take a look at our AOE, and I don't want to be insane or god on aoe, i just want to be decent.

Rogue blade flurry automatically aoes without even him thinking of AOE.

I know my English sucks, and for that I apologize.

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Re: The Aoe situation

Post by Brutus » Mon Jan 12, 2015 11:26 pm

http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/3569 ... anuary-12/

Hotfixes as of today.

So the only AOE we had (bear) got nerfed. Not that bloodboil and bear thrash didn't need some touching, but no buffs for Feral.

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