6.1 Discussion

Face-rippin fun.

Moderator: Forum Administrators

Terias
Honored
Posts: 144
Joined: Sun May 29, 2011 2:58 am

Re: 6.1 Discussion

Post by Terias » Sat Feb 07, 2015 5:35 am

The way tab "works" is that it targets your nearest enemy when you hit it. That includes the target you're already targeting.

It will target the next nearest target and keep doing so until it runs out of near targets or you stop pressing tab for 5 seconds, at which point it starts over. So if you hit tab and it doesn't change your targets, that's because your current target is your nearest enemy, and it targeted it. You'll have to double tap tab if you haven't hit it in a bit.

This gets annoying because you'll pause and want to swap and it will reset and require another double tap, and sometimes you won't pause long enough and it will switch targets, but you double tapped and it switches back to your original target - or a third target and you have to do the tab spam to get back to the second target. At the frantic pace of combat, I really don't have the time to count 5 seconds after my last tab and missing a target can cost me seconds every time I have to swap. It's frustrating because feral play is already prone to dps losses on minor mistakes as it is.

What tab needs to do is target the nearest non-target, always. I'm not sure why it doesn't do that. I can't think of any situations I've ever been in where I hit tab and what I want is to target the one I'm already on.

There are other big issues with melee multi-dotting classes though:

The second biggest is that nameplates travel off screen when you're fighting almost every raid boss in the game, which is really useful for the players that use them to keep track of dots.

Boss frames are unreliable. Sometimes they don't show things and they are capped (Tectus, Brackenspore, half the fights in foundry). And clicking adds individually all over the screen makes me feel like a retard, and leaves me vulnerable to mechanics - as I've used mouse movement the entire game and it forces me to choose targeting or movement/positioning.

It was one thing for ranged to have to multidot - I actually played moonkin a bit, especially for pvp. It was fun, being far back and having a full view of the area is very valuable - clicking was far less of an issue too with mouseover macros on boss frames and focus targets. They also don't have white attacks to worry about.

As a melee, we lose damage from target swapping from white swings. Our specials are short range which requires repositioning on a lot of bosses since they tend to spread naturally. Cleave piles are much easier to cleave for other classes, as cleave type abilities are typically given a small boost in range so you can hit things out of ordinary melee range. You can hit things further away with thrash/swipe than you can with rake for instance - I have to really pay attention to ground effects in melee on fights like Tectus when I'm trying to get dots on everything (instead of just hitting a cleave like every other melee does and knowing it will hit everything).

I've played every iteration of feral since classic and this is the first time I've felt I'd rather just play moonkin because they didn't think this through very well. The base UI is so far away from providing the tools needed to play this class (which I thought was one of their design goals), and even with addons it still leaves a lot to be desired in practice.

I don't even mind the idea of a multidotting melee, it seems like a unique take and it could be fun. I just wish I had the tools to do it correctly and was rewarded with competitive damage for the effort.

I feel like our talents are underutilized, the difference between them is tiny and one is the clear winner on almost every fight - everything but 2-4 persistent target fights (which account for maybe 2 fights this expansion?)

Maybe make moonfire hit all targets in x yards, and LI also make our base attacks/abilities +10 range - something that turns it into the preferred cleave talent and actually makes cleaving easier instead of harder. Maybe claws makes every shred cast swipe and every rake cast thrash. Adjust numbers accordingly - something that makes mass aoe something we can do, even if we're still low ranked at it.

User avatar
Polihayse
Revered
Posts: 459
Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2014 10:46 am

Re: 6.1 Discussion

Post by Polihayse » Sat Feb 07, 2015 6:07 am

Thanks for the information Terias.

Kojiyama
Revered
Posts: 478
Joined: Mon Jan 19, 2015 1:47 pm

Re: 6.1 Discussion

Post by Kojiyama » Sat Feb 07, 2015 1:46 pm

The tab-target issues are actually more complex.

Here are a few things I have found out with testing. Perhaps this will be helpful to people working around the issues.

1) Tab can select your currently selected target if it would be the first valid target to normally be selected and you currently selected the target by mouse clicking on it. If your current target was selected with tab, you won't get the 'double tab' problem, but if it was selected via another means you will have the issue.

2) The max range on tab is smaller than you would think. It is less than 40 yards.

3) Tab selection nowadays is based on your character facing not based on the center of your screen. This is very different than it used to be.

3b) Exception: If you currently are cycling through a group in one direction and quickly turn the opposite direction, the game will occasionally continue cycling through the group behind you (until it runs out of valid targets) before it gets around to targeting the group in front of you.

4) The diagonal dead-zones are wider than you would think and sometimes bug out. In testing, I've noticed that while the dead zones are usually a predictable angle, sometimes targets simply won't be selected when they usually would. I haven't found a pattern here, although I think it has to do with mouselook.

I am considering trying to make some short videos of these issues and posting them so Blizzard can maybe get some more visibility on the issue. They are all pretty busted, especially 1, 3b, and 4.
Image

Dysheki
Revered
Posts: 410
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2011 10:41 am

Re: 6.1 Discussion

Post by Dysheki » Sat Feb 07, 2015 4:47 pm

Terias wrote:I've played every iteration of feral since classic and this is the first time I've felt I'd rather just play moonkin because they didn't think this through very well. The base UI is so far away from providing the tools needed to play this class (which I thought was one of their design goals), and even with addons it still leaves a lot to be desired in practice.
This is part of the issue. Tab targeting sounds okay in theory, but in reality it's just not feasible because of mechanics and the UI.

The second part: even if you overcome a lot of the hurdles in the way of a tab-targeting melee with the UI . . . feral is still incredibly underwhelming making the frustrations not worth it one bit.

User avatar
Sibylle
Revered
Posts: 477
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2012 6:51 am
Location: Ireland

Re: 6.1 Discussion

Post by Sibylle » Sat Feb 07, 2015 7:07 pm

Dysheki wrote:
Terias wrote:I've played every iteration of feral since classic and this is the first time I've felt I'd rather just play moonkin because they didn't think this through very well. The base UI is so far away from providing the tools needed to play this class (which I thought was one of their design goals), and even with addons it still leaves a lot to be desired in practice.
This is part of the issue. Tab targeting sounds okay in theory, but in reality it's just not feasible because of mechanics and the UI.

The second part: even if you overcome a lot of the hurdles in the way of a tab-targeting melee with the UI . . . feral is still incredibly underwhelming making the frustrations not worth it one bit.
That's it in a nutshell. It's disheartening to work my a$$ off and still end up in the lower third of the crowd on AoE, while others hit their two buttons and churn out astronomical numbers.

Or in other words: Considering how much work it is, our AoE ought to be amazing.
-Sibylle

"Not a shred of evidence exists in favor of the idea that life is serious." (Brendan Gill)

User avatar
Felucia
Honored
Posts: 57
Joined: Mon May 20, 2013 1:35 pm

Re: 6.1 Discussion

Post by Felucia » Fri Feb 13, 2015 8:30 pm

Druid
General
Ferocious Bite damage increased by 5%.
Healing Touch no longer heals for 50% more when cast-on-self for Balance Druids.
Mangle damage increased by 27%.
Moonfire's mana cost has been reduced by 55%.
Shred damage increased by 20%.
Thrash (Cat Form) damage increased by 20%.
Feral
Moonfire (Feral) damage increased by 5%.
Rake damage increased by 5%.
Rip damage increased by 5%.
Swipe damage increased by 20%.

Personally I feel like the AoE buffs could have been bigger, but it's something!

Source: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/17561381#druid

Image

User avatar
Tinderhoof
Exalted
Posts: 2234
Joined: Mon May 24, 2010 10:21 pm

Re: 6.1 Discussion

Post by Tinderhoof » Fri Feb 13, 2015 8:33 pm

Too slow!

artsdruid
Posts: 44
Joined: Fri Jan 30, 2015 12:58 pm

Re: 6.1 Discussion

Post by artsdruid » Fri Feb 13, 2015 8:46 pm

just saw that post too, for the ptr buffs, hope they stay at least

User avatar
Felucia
Honored
Posts: 57
Joined: Mon May 20, 2013 1:35 pm

Re: 6.1 Discussion

Post by Felucia » Fri Feb 13, 2015 8:46 pm

Tinderhoof wrote:Too slow!
Well you posted in the wrong thread first!

Anyways, i guess they still do want us topping the single target meters. They kinda adressed switching with the shred buff, but not too much. I'm guessing our aoe will still be too low to justify us spamming it, but yeah.

User avatar
Rayen
Honored
Posts: 109
Joined: Wed Aug 21, 2013 11:00 am

Re: 6.1 Discussion

Post by Rayen » Fri Feb 13, 2015 9:06 pm

Can some brilliant math person retweek our realistic sims w/ this new buff data?
Image

User avatar
aggixx
Exalted
Posts: 2292
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2011 7:49 pm
Contact:

Re: 6.1 Discussion

Post by aggixx » Fri Feb 13, 2015 9:28 pm

What's there to know? Our single target gets higher, our burst gets higher, Incarnation dwarfs the other two options by even more, we're still bad at AoE and will avoid doing so wherever possible.

I feel like the only impactful question is "Do we thrash on single target now?" and I think the answer is still no.

Edit: Single target up by ~6% (a bit less without the 4p) and burst up by ~8.5%.
ImageImage

Dysheki
Revered
Posts: 410
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2011 10:41 am

Re: 6.1 Discussion

Post by Dysheki » Fri Feb 13, 2015 9:52 pm

aggixx wrote:What's there to know? Our single target gets higher, our burst gets higher, Incarnation dwarfs the other two options by even more, we're still bad at AoE and will avoid doing so wherever possible.

I feel like the only impactful question is "Do we thrash on single target now?" and I think the answer is still no.
My exact thoughts.

Basically more of the same.

teddabear
Revered
Posts: 346
Joined: Tue Dec 25, 2012 6:56 am

Re: 6.1 Discussion

Post by teddabear » Sat Feb 14, 2015 1:08 am

Felucia wrote:
Druid

Shred damage increased by 20%.

Personally I feel like the AoE buffs could have been bigger, but it's something!
With the buff to Shred how much would they have to buff Swipe before it passed Shred in single target?

artsdruid
Posts: 44
Joined: Fri Jan 30, 2015 12:58 pm

Re: 6.1 Discussion

Post by artsdruid » Sat Feb 14, 2015 1:24 am

using swipe no matter what would make the rotation slower, no matter how hard they buff it, they would have to reduce the energy cost of swipe for it to matter.

User avatar
Tinderhoof
Exalted
Posts: 2234
Joined: Mon May 24, 2010 10:21 pm

Re: 6.1 Discussion

Post by Tinderhoof » Sat Feb 14, 2015 2:19 am

That outcome seems undesirable. Why would you wait an AoE ability to be better for single target?

User avatar
Sibylle
Revered
Posts: 477
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2012 6:51 am
Location: Ireland

Re: 6.1 Discussion

Post by Sibylle » Sat Feb 14, 2015 2:25 am

Did anyone calculate from how many targets it's worth now to use Swipe over tab-raking?
-Sibylle

"Not a shred of evidence exists in favor of the idea that life is serious." (Brendan Gill)

User avatar
aggixx
Exalted
Posts: 2292
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2011 7:49 pm
Contact:

Re: 6.1 Discussion

Post by aggixx » Sat Feb 14, 2015 3:33 am

I honestly haven't bothered trying to math it because the value is kind of moot; if there's ever that many targets you're certainly going to be tunneling the boss and letting everyone else deal with it, its mostly only applicable for soloing or for trash where there is no main target to tunnel. I suspect its 7-8 targets but I have no mathematical basis for that.
ImageImage

RareBeast
Honored
Posts: 157
Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2011 4:05 am

Re: 6.1 Discussion

Post by RareBeast » Sat Feb 14, 2015 5:14 am

7-8 actually would be OK for me - considering how badly I seem to fail with tab targeting and being out of range of mobs it would probably only require 4-5 mobs for it to be better for me :)

Zstriker
Honored
Posts: 189
Joined: Thu Sep 12, 2013 12:55 pm

Re: 6.1 Discussion

Post by Zstriker » Sat Feb 14, 2015 5:44 am

Swipe need energy reduce cost or more increase in dmg
now you can't spam AoE buttons, you are out of energy after 2-3 - starved, then a huge rotation downtime follow;
and those few casts don't do enough to be jastify.

Those buffs are looks like catch up to our bad scaling overall, not pointed to fix certain problems we have

teddabear
Revered
Posts: 346
Joined: Tue Dec 25, 2012 6:56 am

Re: 6.1 Discussion

Post by teddabear » Sat Feb 14, 2015 6:35 am

Tinderhoof wrote:That outcome seems undesirable. Why would you wait an AoE ability to be better for single target?
My thinking is how high could they buff Swipe without it being better than Shred if they removed the combo points.

Harleking
Posts: 18
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2015 2:46 pm

Re: 6.1 Discussion

Post by Harleking » Sat Feb 14, 2015 7:45 am

Well, by changing the mechanics.

For example <damage right now> + 10% (or other number) for each target hit by swipe.
So its maybe still not worth on 2-3target cleave, but stronger on aoe.

Minostauren
Posts: 2
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2015 9:22 pm

Re: 6.1 Discussion

Post by Minostauren » Sat Feb 14, 2015 3:07 pm

buff to trash and swipe 20% that was cool at least not going to be the lowest dps on beastlord or operator thogar :P
and a increase to our ST dmg was cool too, finally blizz looked to ferals

User avatar
DomGF
Honored
Posts: 51
Joined: Wed Sep 11, 2013 10:31 pm

Re: 6.1 Discussion

Post by DomGF » Sat Feb 14, 2015 4:09 pm

I agree with someone that said that the buffs are more of a scalling update over a fix to our gameplay and poor AoE in real raid settings scenarios.

What continues to bug my mind is how do they not come to the conclusions that many have listed here already? At least it doesn't seem that way.

User avatar
aggixx
Exalted
Posts: 2292
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2011 7:49 pm
Contact:

Re: 6.1 Discussion

Post by aggixx » Sat Feb 14, 2015 4:15 pm

Harleking wrote:Well, by changing the mechanics.

For example <damage right now> + 10% (or other number) for each target hit by swipe.
So its maybe still not worth on 2-3target cleave, but stronger on aoe.
Its stronger, yes, but still not strong enough if you're trying to contribute the best to your raid group. Optimal coordination on every encounter means having the people that are really good at cleaving handle the adds while letting the people that are not so good focus on burning the high priority targets; regardless of the buff we still very firmly fall in the latter half. The Swipe buff means much more for our ability to pad than our actual value in a raid.
ImageImage

teddabear
Revered
Posts: 346
Joined: Tue Dec 25, 2012 6:56 am

Re: 6.1 Discussion

Post by teddabear » Sun Feb 15, 2015 6:04 am

Out of curiosity I did some math with Stenhaldi's spreadsheet and you could buff Swipe by 175% and and it would still be below the new Shred in single target if it didn't give combo points. At +175% it would overtake the new Rake at 3.8 targets. Something along those lines, maybe not quite that high, imo would give a much more enjoyable playing experience plus much better flexibility.


P.S. - I am not proposing any specific value, I have no idea what that would put Feral AoE at but I suspect it would be too high. I do think it is interesting that when Swipe approaches the damage of Shred it also approaches what many consider to be a good transition value from Rake to Swipe.

Post Reply