6.1 Discussion

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Fany
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Re: 6.1 Discussion

Post by Fany » Wed Feb 18, 2015 1:31 pm

Is Thrash worth it now on ST with OoC procs and 2p with the 20% buff?

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Re: 6.1 Discussion

Post by Itharius » Wed Feb 18, 2015 4:00 pm

Amitty wrote:I disagree. It seems like the devs want us strong on single target, but even after the buffs I doubt that any Feral has a chance against equally skilled and geared Arcane Mage. We might have a chance against Hunters, Rogues and Warriors, but we'll have to wait until next week to find out.
I mean, I just beat a 685, 4 pc arcane mage on Gruul pre-buff. Admittedly, he completely screwed up his opener and forgot to double pot.
Fany wrote:Is Thrash worth it now on ST with OoC procs and 2p with the 20% buff?
I'd like to know this too. Sucks because it took ages for me to break the habit of thrashing on clarity.

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Re: 6.1 Discussion

Post by Sibylle » Wed Feb 18, 2015 6:15 pm

As others have stated, Thrash is still not worth it on single target. It's firmly a multi-target spell in this expansion, and I suspect that's very much working as intended.
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Kojiyama
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Re: 6.1 Discussion

Post by Kojiyama » Wed Feb 18, 2015 6:26 pm

Itharius wrote:
Amitty wrote:I disagree. It seems like the devs want us strong on single target, but even after the buffs I doubt that any Feral has a chance against equally skilled and geared Arcane Mage. We might have a chance against Hunters, Rogues and Warriors, but we'll have to wait until next week to find out.
I mean, I just beat a 685, 4 pc arcane mage on Gruul pre-buff. Admittedly, he completely screwed up his opener and forgot to double pot.
I dunno. On aggregate, it appears that Arcane Mages are still absolutely decimating every other class in terms of max DPS on single-target fights. 90th percentile figures on Gruul show Arcane as being head and shoulders above everyone else--although Ferals do extremely well on that fight too.

I'm actually pretty surprised that Arcane has not been nerfed a little bit yet.
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Re: 6.1 Discussion

Post by Zenomni » Wed Feb 18, 2015 8:21 pm

Don't know if it's part of the testing phase or if blizzard will add it back later, but the latest ptr patch doesn't have the 20% buff to shred anymore. Imo if it's gone the rest of the buffs are basicly to compensate the lack of scaling and a small step towards some better aoe. And why why why whyyyyyyy(for extra dramatic effect) do we have to wait for these buffs until 6.1 hits. Many many other classes seem to recieve buffs where needed in hotfixes(and then dailed back a bit when they are to strong).

What do you guys think about this?

It's not like it's a secret feral aoe is shit and single target is decent at best. I find these fixes so far lackluster and what annoys me more is the lack of communication. Are these fixes ment to last a while or is it just a temp fix and they are working on a revamp i would really like to know. I like playing feral but at this point i want to know wether i should stop wasting my efforts on feral or stick it out with an actual fix to look forward to.

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Re: 6.1 Discussion

Post by Stenhaldi » Wed Feb 18, 2015 8:31 pm

Yes it does: http://ptr.wowhead.com/spell=5221/shred

It's 448% on live.

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Re: 6.1 Discussion

Post by TheLOOGE » Wed Feb 18, 2015 8:38 pm

Because Arcane doesn't do those kinds of numbers on medium-high movement fights. Fire/Frost tend to do much better on multi-target encounters and is far more beneficial on most encounters in BRF, so really, Arcane is mages' niche, stationary, ST spec. I don't mind that Arcane is that high. Now if they could follow suit, make Feral equally potent on ST (which should happen in T-minus 6 days) and suddenly we serve that role just as well.

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Re: 6.1 Discussion

Post by Kojiyama » Wed Feb 18, 2015 9:23 pm

I still don't feel like it makes any sense the magnitude of advantage Arcane has right now compared to the aggressive tuning they have done with all the other classes single-target damage.

Arcane is still halfway decent on burst AoE fights (they rank pretty highly on Kromog, for instance) and Fire is very good at sustained AoE at high gear levels. I don't understand why Arcane should have a super-secret advantage compared to every other class/spec on single target fights. Every other class that has even come close to approaching their single-target damage has been hotfixed downward since launch.
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Re: 6.1 Discussion

Post by Avex » Sat Feb 21, 2015 11:39 pm

On the single target rankings pages(all but 695M) on simulationcraft.com it is showing shattered hand bleed.
Is this an error? Is shattered hand somehow increasing in value now?
I can see maybe with crit soft cap issues it might be, but I haven't heard anything about it here. Also if crit soft cap were relevant it seems that the 695 page would be most effected.
Last edited by Avex on Sun Feb 22, 2015 1:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

Itharius
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Re: 6.1 Discussion

Post by Itharius » Sat Feb 21, 2015 11:42 pm

According to a patchwerk sim, we're just 2000 dps short of arcane mage in 6.1 for second place on single target. http://www.simulationcraft.org/reports/Raid_T17M.html

And with the 20% buff to thrash, we'll also be pulling considerably more dps on cleave and aoe fights than we do now.

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Tinderhoof
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Re: 6.1 Discussion

Post by Tinderhoof » Sun Feb 22, 2015 4:09 am

Don't get too excited about the Thrash buff. It will be nice on stuff like Hanz & Franz, and Iron Maidens where targets are up for long periods of time. Fights like Beast Lord, and Kromog, and Operator are not going to see huge improvements because those targets die so fast Thrash isn't able to tick for much damage. It's a nice to have don't get me wrong. We aren't going to be suddenly competitive on AoE fights all of a sudden though.

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Jinxs
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Re: 6.1 Discussion

Post by Jinxs » Sun Feb 22, 2015 6:06 am

Tinderhoof wrote:Don't get too excited about the Thrash buff. It will be nice on stuff like Hanz & Franz, and Iron Maidens where targets are up for long periods of time. Fights like Beast Lord, and Kromog, and Operator are not going to see huge improvements because those targets die so fast Thrash isn't able to tick for much damage. It's a nice to have don't get me wrong. We aren't going to be suddenly competitive on AoE fights all of a sudden though.
We don't realy need to be competitive on a those fights, since other classes already take care of those low priority targets and becouse buff to our ST we can focus on a high priority ones wich it seems is our speciality. For example at Kromog we can quickly save the remaining people still stuck in the rune, at Operator we can handle Man-at-arms and Firemenders, saving people from the spear at Beastlord, etc. In addition to that, now we don't even completly suck at the general AoE anymore.

Im acutaly quite pleased how Blizzard aproach fixing our class by buffing some of our AoE AND single target. Its funny how the feral community cried for AoE buff and they give us this. And to be honest they probably nailed it. I think we are in the similar spot that we were back in SoO where we allways sucked at Fallen Protectors, Galakras and Paragons... but everyone was happy about it. Excluding the Tectus, now we actualy have earned our spot in the WoD raids.

What we need right now is a general guideline on how to adapt our play to get the most out of the changes that are coming this wednesday.

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Re: 6.1 Discussion

Post by Vami » Sun Feb 22, 2015 6:37 am

Jinxs wrote:I think we are in the similar spot that we were back in SoO where we allways sucked at Fallen Protectors, Galakras and Paragons... but everyone was happy about it. Excluding the Tectus, now we actualy have earned our spot in the WoD raids.
I don't remember sucking on any of those fights. Galakras (and Spoils) maybe weren't our best fights, but Feral felt especially strong on Fallen Protectors and Paragons of the Klaxxi. With the buffs, I feel like we're stronger on single target but still weaker in aoe now than we were during SoO. Things change, though, and it's good that ferals still have their own niche, and that they're trying to keep ferals that way.

Still, I'd enjoy having stronger aoe, so that I wouldn't fall down on the total meters so much the second an add wave spawns. AOE is important in this expansion and given that we don't have any important raid cooldowns to give, and that our fast target switching sucks, it would be good to be able to swipe decent aoe dps at least. That, or just getting a decent raid cooldown would solve a lot of problems.

I'm glad that they realized that ferals needed some love. At least we're not completely forgotten! :)

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Re: 6.1 Discussion

Post by Nayni » Sun Feb 22, 2015 7:12 am

Looking at PTR and new Sim results I have a good feeling about the new patch. I personally feel like the buffs we're pretty on point as to what direction I want feral to take. Slightly buffing our AoE while making our single target come up to par with some of the highest ones in the game was the right move to make in my eyes.

I would even say that there is still more room to put feral more into our niche of single target and it wouldn't be a bad thing if we actualy overtook arcane mages on that scale.

I feel like, even with all the disadvantages I've been able to fill a valuable melee spot. Although I agree with Vami that AoE is important this expansion alot of that AoE is pure padding. Most of the actual important AoE would be dying regardless if you made the classes/specs that are good at it to do it. There's no fight where plain AoE is the actual key to beating the boss and so far I've always been able to find things I can do as Feral where I am helping todo a certain mechanic.

If there is one thing I've been secretly hoping for it's lowering the cooldown of Incarnation and Berserk as our cooldowns. I feel like if there is any real burden I have as Feral it's the fact we are one of the only classes who truely rely on 3 minute cooldowns. I feel like Incarnation and Berserk could easely be brought down to 2minutes, Incarnation could lose abit of it's duration for it to compensate.
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Re: 6.1 Discussion

Post by Jinxs » Sun Feb 22, 2015 7:30 am

Nayni wrote:Looking at PTR and new Sim results I have a good feeling about the new patch. I personally feel like the buffs we're pretty on point as to what direction I want feral to take. Slightly buffing our AoE while making our single target come up to par with some of the highest ones in the game was the right move to make in my eyes.

I would even say that there is still more room to put feral more into our niche of single target and it wouldn't be a bad thing if we actualy overtook arcane mages on that scale.

I feel like, even with all the disadvantages I've been able to fill a valuable melee spot. Although I agree with Vami that AoE is important this expansion alot of that AoE is pure padding. Most of the actual important AoE would be dying regardless if you made the classes/specs that are good at it to do it. There's no fight where plain AoE is the actual key to beating the boss and so far I've always been able to find things I can do as Feral where I am helping todo a certain mechanic.
Exactly this.

Note that Acrane needs to be pretty much stationary to do this kind of dps while we pretty much move and do the same dps as we would be as stationary. In additon to that we also have high mobility.
Nayni wrote:If there is one thing I've been secretly hoping for it's lowering the cooldown of Incarnation and Berserk as our cooldowns. I feel like if there is any real burden I have as Feral it's the fact we are one of the only classes who truely rely on 3 minute cooldowns. I feel like Incarnation and Berserk could easely be brought down to 2minutes, Incarnation could lose abit of it's duration for it to compensate.
I can survive with 3m cooldowns since it aligns pretty well on some fights and lowering it would probably be too OP. On the other hand I realy would like to have a level 100 talent choice between AoE and ST. Similar to Combat Rogues spec (Aoe) and Subtlety Rogues spec (ST).

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Re: 6.1 Discussion

Post by Zenomni » Sun Feb 22, 2015 9:46 am

Although i do think the buffs are a step in the right direction and good overall. I personally would prefer a more bleed focussed play style. Where our focus would be on high hp adds and single target boss fights/2-3target cleave.
This would imo make the class more unique and less bursty.

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Re: 6.1 Discussion

Post by smugler » Sun Feb 22, 2015 9:54 am

I actually would prefer snapshot to come back, this to seperate the bad from the good from the real good ones

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Re: 6.1 Discussion

Post by Dwade » Sun Feb 22, 2015 12:00 pm

smugler wrote:I actually would prefer snapshot to come back, this to seperate the bad from the good from the real good ones
We still have snap shots with BT, TF, SR and stealth rake. MoP snap shots only separated the ones who used addons from the ones who didn't. It was not good gameplay to constantly overwrite dots, which is why it was removed from trinket procs and other short term gains.
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Re: 6.1 Discussion

Post by Catbeard » Sun Feb 22, 2015 3:10 pm

Dwade wrote:
smugler wrote:I actually would prefer snapshot to come back, this to seperate the bad from the good from the real good ones
We still have snap shots with BT, TF, SR and stealth rake. MoP snap shots only separated the ones who used addons from the ones who didn't. It was not good gameplay to constantly overwrite dots, which is why it was removed from trinket procs and other short term gains.
yea, it literally was all addons. The "good ones" and "real good ones" basically had a multiplier display that was green or red, if its green you reapply your dot. there was no true difficult or rewarding play to it. and even with addons, trying to align your energy and cooldowns with a random proc was a nightmare. I hated playing RoRo and i hope it burns in hell :evil: , lol sry.

but anyways as far as 6.1 goes, I'm glad were getting buffs, but i wish it was more thought out and creative instead of just sort of a flat buff on all of our abilities. many people have already said it, thrash buffs are nice, but nothing lives long enough for it to matter really so our aoe situation has barely improved at all. Fights like hans&frans and maidens our damage will be great with all these buffs but meh. i think we can all agree that we wanted something to help out with aoe burst, or at least a substantial increase in our single target that makes up for our lack of aoe burst. I guess we will see every ones opinion on whether or not our single target is good enough now to be ok with our mediocre aoe. I think we will be in a good spot after 6.1 , i feel like theres other specs and classes that probably have more to complain about than we do now.

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Re: 6.1 Discussion

Post by Dysheki » Sun Feb 22, 2015 8:54 pm

Dwade wrote:
smugler wrote:I actually would prefer snapshot to come back, this to seperate the bad from the good from the real good ones
We still have snap shots with BT, TF, SR and stealth rake. MoP snap shots only separated the ones who used addons from the ones who didn't. It was not good gameplay to constantly overwrite dots, which is why it was removed from trinket procs and other short term gains.
I completely disagree. I enjoyed MoP playstyle (more consistent damage, constantly adapting to trinket procs) as opposed to WoD (ME HULK SMASH . . . . afk for 2.5 minutes).

And to reiterate my AoE comments - there should not be this large of a disparity between top and bottom. The buffs do not adequately bridge this gap. I don't feel like dps numbers should be a 'niche'. Raid utility like stampeding roar should be a niche, not potential dps capabilities. I really don't care if most of the numbers are padding or not. The difference is inexcusable in my mind.

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Re: 6.1 Discussion

Post by Whitepaw » Mon Feb 23, 2015 6:28 am

Dwade wrote:
smugler wrote:I actually would prefer snapshot to come back, this to seperate the bad from the good from the real good ones
We still have snap shots with BT, TF, SR and stealth rake. MoP snap shots only separated the ones who used addons from the ones who didn't. It was not good gameplay to constantly overwrite dots, which is why it was removed from trinket procs and other short term gains.
^ This! And I really appreciate all the vocal Ferals who came with suggestions to keep snapshotting options within our toolset, while at the same time allowing the devs to scrap stuff like trinket procs. I think we have a nice balance in current gameplay, although a nerf to auto-attack and a buff to Rake/Rip would be nice. I hate having so much damage done by auto-attack. Let Rogues keep that.

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Re: 6.1 Discussion

Post by Zokis » Mon Feb 23, 2015 7:52 am

Dysheki wrote:
Dwade wrote:
smugler wrote:I actually would prefer snapshot to come back, this to seperate the bad from the good from the real good ones
We still have snap shots with BT, TF, SR and stealth rake. MoP snap shots only separated the ones who used addons from the ones who didn't. It was not good gameplay to constantly overwrite dots, which is why it was removed from trinket procs and other short term gains.
I completely disagree. I enjoyed MoP playstyle (more consistent damage, constantly adapting to trinket procs) as opposed to WoD (ME HULK SMASH . . . . afk for 2.5 minutes).

And to reiterate my AoE comments - there should not be this large of a disparity between top and bottom. The buffs do not adequately bridge this gap. I don't feel like dps numbers should be a 'niche'. Raid utility like stampeding roar should be a niche, not potential dps capabilities. I really don't care if most of the numbers are padding or not. The difference is inexcusable in my mind.
I also enjoyed MoP a lot, but i find the overall solution with us still having serveral snapshotting abilities to be fine.
It's mostly incarnation that sucks. A simple button for doing extra damage every 3 mins, shouldn't really be the best, excpt for fights where it's required to burst a highprio target down fast. I have no idea how it looks with treants being buffed in 6.1, but would really like for that one to be the better option again.
Is pretty much my only complaint about feral currently. I grant we're not the best class or spec, right now, and won't be in 6.1 either, but i can live with that.

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Re: 6.1 Discussion

Post by Elamari » Mon Feb 23, 2015 8:33 am

Does the 5% buff to Feral Moonfire affect Lunar Inspiration? If so, is this enough to make LI more competitive against BT? I realise this is a bit of an opened ended question probably answered by "sim your character" but just wanted to confirm it was a significant enough change.

And just to clarify - was Thrash buffed enough to use single target / OoC procs?

Thanks.
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Re: 6.1 Discussion

Post by Dysheki » Mon Feb 23, 2015 9:44 am

LI was buffed just like shred, rake, and rip. So no, LI is not changing. Just a 2-3 target cleave ability. Honestly I only use LI with 2 targets though.

Fairly certain you still don't use thrash single target, not 100% on that. But it seems like you will want max uptime with 2+.

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Re: 6.1 Discussion

Post by Whitepaw » Mon Feb 23, 2015 10:49 am

Since Shred is buffed so much, how close will CoS come to being the best dps talent on single target?

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