6.1 Discussion

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Whitepaw
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Re: 6.1 Discussion

Post by Whitepaw » Wed Feb 04, 2015 2:48 pm

Starbreeze wrote:Do you not think that if the warrior ignored the adds and focused solely on the bosses like feral does that the difference you describe there would come way way down and may even flip a bit in the other direction?

No one is saying that our single target is bad. But warriors can do exactly the same and then aoe like champions if the need calls for it.
Well, since his Bladestorm does 36% (!) of his dps, I'd say that the answer to that question is a "No". Even if he chose another tier 6 talent, none of them would deliver even close to that amount of damage.

But if you're asking me if some of AoE spells in the game at present are seriously overpowered, I'd answer "Yes, they are".

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Re: 6.1 Discussion

Post by TheLOOGE » Wed Feb 04, 2015 3:07 pm

Whitepaw wrote:Neither - he has a point.
Alright. Let's hear it.
When you look at the individual logs for fights from Highmaul Mythic on World of Logs, you can see what he's hinting at.
Let's go ahead and stop you here. If you read the full Twitter conversation, he was only referring to two fights. Heroic Twin Ogron and Heroic Kor'agh. So he wasn't in fact hinting at anything except his own personal anecdotal evidence. And I think it's common knowledge that Ferals in Heroic Highmaul tend to fare very well. Not to mention, Twin Ogron is one of ferals' only bread and butter fights. It's only in Mythic Highmaul gear (and encounters) and beyond where we fall off the table on single target and even more so in AoE.

Mythic Kor'agh also introduces another element that requires target swapping -- a task not well suited for Ferals, but perfectly fine for Warriors. Granted, it appears both were able to swap and dps MC's, but consider that the warrior you are looking at is banking his cds specifically for Volatile anomolies. Bottom line is, the guy is looking to parse rank 1 [read: he's padding his ass off. He's not worried about his boss damage]. Losing very little damage on the boss totally opposite of how it affects our dps. We can't 'bank' TF. We can't cap energy. We can't be peeled from the boss without losing a tremendous amount of damage.

That said, comparing rank 1's across different specs is not a strong case to bring.
f you take a look at Imperator, you get the same picture. Again, Ferals do well when looking at damage done on the boss, compared to other melee specs. This shows that Feral single target dps is also important in fights with multiple targets. It might not be on the no. 1 spot on dps logs, but doing most damage on the boss is rather important.
Starbreeze pretty much nailed this in his response. Our single target is great. But we're not the best. Our AoE is totally dogshit. Other classes can still compete with our single target and lose virtually nothing when having to do other important things, like swapping to aberrations or burning down Operator Thogar adds. Single target is important, but it is not the ONLY important thing. I mean, you want to talk about depressing, look at this:

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/t6 ... target=118

Yaaay cool. #2 on boss damage. Weeee.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/t6 ... amage-done

...Wait what the fuck? Dead fucking last. Feels good to do all that... single... target... damage.... :|

But I hope this buff will allow us to keep our excellent single target damage, instead of necessitating a nerf to that so dps specs are kept balanced.

I think you are vastly overstating the potency of our single target damage. We could stand to use another single target buff, if anything. Especially to counterbalance how pathetic we are in other various dps situations. Again, it is unjustifiable for our AE to be anemic and our single target to be "just" competitive.

So all in all, I don't think Bird de la Coffee has any validity to his claim that ferals are strong right now. Maybe in his pug Heroic group, he tends to do well. But in an end game raiding scenario where "what can you do for this encounter for us in totality" matters more than just being "good" at one dynamic, sorry, we're not strong in any sense of the word.
Last edited by TheLOOGE on Wed Feb 04, 2015 5:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 6.1 Discussion

Post by Whitepaw » Wed Feb 04, 2015 3:10 pm

Kojiyama wrote:This argument leads to a slightly false economy, though.

If Ferals were better at AoE, AoE adds would die faster and other classes would be able to do more damage on the boss. Raid damage would likely be lower as well, leading to a higher chance of success of the fight.

It's one thing if a player is 'padding' by splashing to targets don't don't need to die or aren't really very important. However, in any instance where AoE targets need to die, the lack of being able to AoE them down is a massive detriment--regardless of our decent performance tunneling the boss.
I agree completely with your last paragraph. But looking at classes like warriors and enhancement shaman, I don't see them being able to do significantly more damage to the boss. These two classes lead in melee AoE dps, but their AoE spells are incredibly dominant (highest ranking enh shaman does 55% of his damage on Kargath with Fire Nova), they can't convert that much to single target damage.

I'm not saying that the leading AoE dps specs are "padding" their meters, as that would imply that killing adds is trivial to the fights - which is not necessarily the case. What I am saying is that Rygarius has a point. In my previous post, the difference in boss damage between the no. 1 dps in the world and the best Feral is nearly 2 mio hp. That should not be dismissed.

In fact, if I was a developer on WoW, looking at these logs, I would start working on enh shaman and warriors. The enh shaman actually needs to do AoE to justify a spot, while the warrior needs to do AoE and/or have a target below Execute range.

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Re: 6.1 Discussion

Post by Tinderhoof » Wed Feb 04, 2015 3:14 pm

A couple of things.
1. Don't use World of Logs to prove any points. It is a sub optimal log choice. Use Warcraftlogs.
2. Looking at Butcher where it is pure single target the best Warrior did 42,852 damgae to the boss. The highest Feral did 40,680 damage to the boss.

So while a warrior can do more damage to adds to rank higher, it doesn't mean they are not capable of beating us at the only thing we are really good at (that includes ST and Cleave). On a fight like Imparator doing damage to the boss is important. But doing quick damage to adds that either pulse damage, or need to die quickly to keep from overwhelming the tank, we just fall short. So in the cases that there is a fight which Single Target isn't "the critical" mechanic other options like Warrior who also bring a raid survival cooldown are just the better choice.

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Re: 6.1 Discussion

Post by Dysheki » Wed Feb 04, 2015 3:45 pm

Exactly. Highmaul is somewhat smoke and mirrors since adds didn't need to die asap. Have you tried the furnace boss yet? Do that and tell me you feel like you're an integral part of the raid as feral.

I think this "let specific classes aoe" concept is severely flawed. I don't know where it came from but it needs to head back where it came from.

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Re: 6.1 Discussion

Post by Kojiyama » Wed Feb 04, 2015 4:57 pm

The thing about 'winning' the single-target war (which we don't do on aggregate anyway!) is that Blizzard has been very aggressive about balancing via hotfixes any major issues with single-target DPS.

For instance, they buffed Arms Warriors multiple times (and then slightly nerfed because they over-buffed) to bring them in line with other the single target damage of other classes and specs, despite them having crazy good AoE.

Additionally, at a reasonable gear threshold, Balance becomes within a couple percentage points of Feral at single-target damage, despite having a ridiculous advantage in AoE damage.

I don't feel like anyone can really make the, "you're good at single target, but not at AoE," argument with how much Blizzard has hotfixed single-target damage to be equitable to all classes (less than 10% between top and bottom best specs in most fights) while at the same time leaving a massive gap (60%+ on many fights) in effective AoE damage.

(*Note: For some reason, they are still OK with Arcane being very significantly better than everyone else at max single-target damage. Still can't quite figure that one out.)
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Re: 6.1 Discussion

Post by aggixx » Wed Feb 04, 2015 6:00 pm

Rank 1 parses are never a representation of class balance. A warrior that crits every one of their executes in execute range is going to blow everyone else away but that doesn't make them an all around better spec.
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Re: 6.1 Discussion

Post by Dabeasty » Wed Feb 04, 2015 7:00 pm

I'll save the number crunching for you guys who do it better than I ever would, but a few observations:

At around ilvl 675 I still do ok at Single Target and some Cleave.If I work damn hard and nail the rotation and get lucky with certain things I can be up there. I do appear to be going backwards 'on the meters' tho as we all gear up. (Amongst the same raiders for many years thats unusual for me, Ive nearly always been top or thereabouts).

On AoE fights I am really not enjoying myself. I have thrown myself into the tab rake, thrash, rip, SR...against mobs which are often spread out...whilst dodging all the usual shit that lands in melee range...and do it to the best of my ability. Sometimes I know I am doing crap and it is reflected on the meters. Other times I feel like I have really nailed it and I look at the meter and Im about halfway down. That really riles me. Lots of effort for no reward. I also play a rogue who literally just turns on blade flurry and tops are fights.

Im not going to cry too much and threaten reroll etc. I really don't like any class so much as feral and my guild isn't so hardcore I'll be benched so Im lucky in that regard. I feel for those people who are in danger of losing their spots.

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Re: 6.1 Discussion

Post by Nayni » Wed Feb 04, 2015 7:40 pm

On AoE-waves (aka stuff that's gonna drop within 10seconds of it reaching the melee) I pretty much cross my fingers and pray for Scales of Doom to proc for multistrikes and clearcasts to get free thrash up/refreshes. If that doesn't happen, I just take of my headset and leave the room coz its gg at that point.

Honestly, after doing some stuff in BRF tonight. Just a simple Thrash and Swipe damage buff would fix all the issues for now, it doesn't even have to be that much just something to make us compete even slightly. No need to get fancy with abilities, just balance our current spells against the current threshold of aoe.
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Re: 6.1 Discussion

Post by Kojiyama » Wed Feb 04, 2015 11:14 pm

You hit on something interesting, which is that the cost of Thrash (and Swipe) are such that Clearcasting procs are pretty big difference-makers. Most of my best attempts on Ko'ragh and Imperator are basically due to very fortunate Clearcasting procs that allowed me to use Thrash without totally killing my energy pool. This element sure does add a lot of RNG to our ability to be effective in multi-target situations.

Anyway, as you say, a Thrash/Swipe buff is the obvious solution to the AoE struggles, although I still strongly feel like we need an AoE finisher in order to properly use our resources to the desired end. Converting combo points into damage is a big part of how Ferals (and Rogues) are balanced, and not being able to convert CP into meaningful AoE damage means that we will by default have inefficient use of resources for the purposes of AoE.
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Re: 6.1 Discussion

Post by Cantor (Shredable) » Thu Feb 05, 2015 9:27 am

After our first night in BRF heroic last night, I did well at Gruul and Oregorger (#2 on both fights), but absolutely burned on Darmac, which was to be expected, ending up in 14th place. I've also offspecced Balance and will be trying to make use of it, but my offspec Balance pieces are pretty awful at the moment (blue weapons and trinkets), so I'm not sure that it would be worth it. However, seeing our Moonkin do 63k DPS on Darmac to my 28.7k was pretty disheartening, although I did go near-enough pure ST as our AoE is just so awful; the only DPS classes I beat were a Mage, Warlock and WW Monk, none of whom are particularly strong players.

Even if Swipe and Thrash were significantly buffed, the sheer energy cost of them makes them tricky to use. Thrash certainly, as it generates no CPs, and literally just feels like throwing energy away.

Log: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/fmnjQaC84wLyJ1Vk/#

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Re: 6.1 Discussion

Post by Kojiyama » Thu Feb 05, 2015 11:34 am

To put your log into perspective, the Balance Druid in your group would have outdamaged you by pressing 1 button every 10 seconds and just standing there doing nothing else the entire fight. :)

(He had 14.48m damage from Starfall, compared to your 14.08m total damage.)

He also did the highest damage (right above you) to Beastlord himself, so that probably only adds insult to injury! Balance is in a really strong place right now.

I've put together a balance set myself (with a Grandiose weapon from follower missions and some off-spec scraps from Heroic HM) and it is definitely really strong on any AoE-anything. Sunfire and Starfall are just so good for any kind of AoE scenario that it's hard to understand the disconnect between the two spec designs.
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Re: 6.1 Discussion

Post by Dwade » Thu Feb 05, 2015 11:52 am

Kojiyama wrote:To put your log into perspective, the Balance Druid in your group would have outdamaged you by pressing 1 button every 10 seconds and just standing there doing nothing else the entire fight. :)

(He had 14.48m damage from Starfall, compared to your 14.08m total damage.)

He also did the highest damage (right above you) to Beastlord himself, so that probably only adds insult to injury! Balance is in a really strong place right now.

I've put together a balance set myself (with a Grandiose weapon from follower missions and some off-spec scraps from Heroic HM) and it is definitely really strong on any AoE-anything. Sunfire and Starfall are just so good for any kind of AoE scenario that it's hard to understand the disconnect between the two spec designs.
Yep...I am only 1 piece of gear away from having a decent balance set and I will be using it for fights like beastlord or blast furnace. Feral is way more fun but its frustrating to put in a ton more effort than starfall through tab raking and thrash management, yet not come anywhere near the same amount of damage. You have to work very hard to do even middle of the pack dps in such fights while other specs use 1 button and go to the top. I feel its detrimental to the raid if I don't switch.
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Re: 6.1 Discussion

Post by Aperature » Thu Feb 05, 2015 3:16 pm

I need a "How to Balance" sub-forum for BRF. I wish Ovale had a custom script for it. I am miserable at it.

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Re: 6.1 Discussion

Post by Nayni » Thu Feb 05, 2015 7:20 pm

Got myself the 2piece of tier before we reached Blast furnance. The bonus is awesome, it makes this fight so much better and it actualy feels godlike when you're allowed to tab rake on multiple targets that live long enough.

Also killed Iron Maidens after and again, the set bonus makes feral feel like a whole new world to me. It smooths out the energy starvation and downtimes and makes it really enjoyable to play multiple target fights. Obviously it doesn't fix any short burst aoe but it sure as hell helps me stay relevant for now.

Would've had the r1 on Maidens by like 4k dps until our raidleader called stop DPS and I lost my tripple dotline for 30seconds :<

Honestly feel like a simple Swipe buff and maybe a minor buff to thrash would give Feral a complete new look on things. But it's just praying at this point.
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Re: 6.1 Discussion

Post by Amitty » Thu Feb 05, 2015 7:35 pm

I told you guys that the set bonuses are very strong. :P

If we get the Swipe buff then IT'S ON!

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Re: 6.1 Discussion

Post by Windchilla » Thu Feb 05, 2015 8:02 pm

I would like to see the Rake + Thrash functionality restored along with a possible AOE finisher. Our current model of maximum effort for minimum output is frustrating to no end outside of single target and two target cleave fights. Thrash spreading a diminished Rake/Rip to off targets and an AOE finisher than consumes bleeds for burst would be interesting. I'm the only Feral in our raid and we have mostly 1-2 button AOE monsters in the melee group, making this situation even more frustrating.

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Re: 6.1 Discussion

Post by Hawthot » Fri Feb 06, 2015 1:58 am

So I just discovered this site today and I'm so glad to see that my problems with feral seem to be shared by a whole lot of you. I have raided HM every week since it released and just stepped into BRF and downed the first three bosses. It just seems to become staler with every week that goes by. Its by far my favorite spec in the game but the current state its in is just nuts. It makes me really sad because I have no desire to main another class. :cry:

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Re: 6.1 Discussion

Post by Snap » Fri Feb 06, 2015 3:12 am

Hawthot wrote:So I just discovered this site today and I'm so glad to see that my problems with feral seem to be shared by a whole lot of you.
Me too!

I'm new to WoW so, of course, everything seems hard. But man it sure did seem like my learning curve was a lot uglier than what other people talk about. Heck, even the word "rotation" implies something that is vastly different than the fairly sophisticated finite state machine a feral copes with. Reading a few threads here makes me believe I'm not just old and addled in the brain.

For grins I finally used my second spec and tried a boomkin. Holy cow... really? A two button rotation that can be described in one sentence? I need to figure out why SimC says my max DPS is 8.2k... I'm sure gear related. But as much as I've liked my feral it just seems like they are a whole ton of work for moderate results in a few fights and abysmal results in the rest.

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Re: 6.1 Discussion

Post by Eltur » Fri Feb 06, 2015 9:57 am

Not a discussion but sums it up quite well :mrgreen:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DK1GKBTwyoo

(joke video)

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Re: 6.1 Discussion

Post by Feral_Instincts » Fri Feb 06, 2015 3:08 pm

I've been on break for a while and decided to come back and found this thread when trying to start digging into the new numbers. I read the whole thing.

One thing that crossed my mind is making Thrash a finishing move that spreads rake to X targets based on the number of combo points you have, prioritizing non-bleeding targets.

Honestly, I would be happy if they put us back to where we were in Wrath. Decent AoE, a single target rotation that is tough as nails, but if you nail it you're off the charts. But maybe that's just my nostalgia speaking. When I did amazing numbers back then, I was proud of them, because I knew I worked my butt off for them.

Actually, there's a B) thought for AoE, if they could make the reward at least worth the effort of the target switching. Just swipe and thrash will keep you at the bottom of the charts, but if you take the effort to do these complex maneuvers then the damage is insane.

Actually since swipe offers combo points now, would there be any benefit to using swipe to build CPs and then Ripping the targets?

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Re: 6.1 Discussion

Post by Kojiyama » Fri Feb 06, 2015 4:50 pm

Feral_Instincts wrote:Actually since swipe offers combo points now, would there be any benefit to using swipe to build CPs and then Ripping the targets?
Rip generally lasts too long to be viable in the majority of AoE scenarios. It becomes pretty inefficient because of this.

Additionally, Swipe is too weak to really be a viable CP generator until you have already applied Rake to every active target (up to a pretty large number of targets.) Rake has about double the damage per execute time as Swipe even against 4 targets, despite costing less energy. I think that puts the break-even point somewhere around 10-11 targets. Swipe is just super-weak right now.
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Re: 6.1 Discussion

Post by ShmooDude » Sat Feb 07, 2015 1:36 am

Kojiyama wrote:
Feral_Instincts wrote:Actually since swipe offers combo points now, would there be any benefit to using swipe to build CPs and then Ripping the targets?
Rip generally lasts too long to be viable in the majority of AoE scenarios. It becomes pretty inefficient because of this.

Additionally, Swipe is too weak to really be a viable CP generator until you have already applied Rake to every active target (up to a pretty large number of targets.) Rake has about double the damage per execute time as Swipe even against 4 targets, despite costing less energy. I think that puts the break-even point somewhere around 10-11 targets. Swipe is just super-weak right now.
7-8 targets when incarnation is not up, 15-16 when incarnation is up (rake perk).

One thing to consider is that simcraft puts us artificially high on some AoE charts by virtue of doing a rotation no human is capable of doing. Take this for example. 4 target sustained AoE we are actually near the top, in theory... But that requires near perfect execution of the cycle target lines, which is pretty much impossible for any player to do. Keep in mind those are executed in order, so for every single cycle target line, it cycles through all targets before moving on to the next line. No player actually plays like that. Usually, even on something like twin ogron, I'll use both rake and moonfire on the target before moving on to the next because their durations are roughly the same and it keeps me from excessive target switching.

Lets look at Twin Ogrons for example.

Pawkets rank 2 parse is pretty similar to what simcraft has in terms of DPS (ilvl 680 set bonuses disabled)
Ability - Pawkets (44.2k) vs Simcraft "Elite" skill (42.6k)
Rake - 193% vs 187%
Moonfire - 188% vs 195%
Rip - 170% vs 167%
Thrash - 105% vs 142%

However, my 95th percentile parse (rank 134) is much more reminiscent of Simcraft's "Good" skill
Ability - Lolaan (36.0k)vs Simcraft "Good" skill (35.6k)
Rake - 165% vs 178%
Moonfire - 150% vs 188%
Rip - 159% vs 75%
Thrash - 95% vs 105%

Note: Rip's uptime is so low because by lowering the skill level simcraft will erroneously use the "Keep Rip from falling off during execute range" ferocious bite in non-execute range and/or when rip is not falling off. Its the kind of mistake a player is unlikely to make. I'm not sure if that's intentional or not since the documentaiton says: "A 0.8 skill means a player who have a 20% chance anytime he should perform an action to think it's not actually ready and skip to the next action in list, or even the one after (20% chance on every level)." Good = 0.9 and Elite = 1.0 for reference. It doesn't say anything about thinking an action is ready when its not (which is clearly what's happening).

So already at 2 targets, the rotation is fairly unforgiving. More than that and you move to pretty much impossible. Now, its not a perfect comparison cause twin ogron is far from 2 boss "patchwerk" but still shows how flawed simcraft is for emulating a realistic rotation on multi-target fights for Ferals. Saying one should rake on "up to 7 targets" seems flawed to me. Especially when even simcraft can only maintain a 433% uptime in that scenario while also never leaving melee range to do so.

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Re: 6.1 Discussion

Post by Terias » Sat Feb 07, 2015 3:23 am

I swear I would be fine with a rake aoe rotation if tab worked half of the time.

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Re: 6.1 Discussion

Post by Polihayse » Sat Feb 07, 2015 3:34 am

Terias wrote:I swear I would be fine with a rake aoe rotation if tab worked half of the time.
Yeah what is up with that? I feel like I need to hit the 'target nearest enemy' button twice in order for it to switch to a new enemy. It's the main reason why I end up clicking to target swap most of the time.

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