6.1 Discussion

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Itharius
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Re: 6.1 Discussion

Post by Itharius » Mon Feb 16, 2015 1:43 am

Dysheki wrote: Basically more of the same.
A flat ~8% dps boost is pretty significant. I think that catapults us to best single target melee dps.

Tivook
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Re: 6.1 Discussion

Post by Tivook » Mon Feb 16, 2015 8:42 am

I'm quite happy tunnelling the boss still with these buffs, shame about AoE still being awful but we've got plenty of AoE classes in our raid anyway and we already do great ST damage.

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Re: 6.1 Discussion

Post by Fieran » Mon Feb 16, 2015 8:47 am

Tivook wrote:I'm quite happy tunnelling the boss still with these buffs, shame about AoE still being awful but we've got plenty of AoE classes in our raid anyway and we already do great ST damage.
I assume you are speaking on PTR as to my knowledge 6.1 isn't hitting for a few weeks at least.

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Re: 6.1 Discussion

Post by Dysheki » Mon Feb 16, 2015 9:35 am

Itharius wrote:
Dysheki wrote: Basically more of the same.
A flat ~8% dps boost is pretty significant. I think that catapults us to best single target melee dps.
Yes, that puts us back to where we were for the start of Highmaul. We dropped off a bit and this brings us back. Which is why I'm saying more of the same. Our ST and 2-3 cleave will be excellent. And our target switching and AoE will be terrible.

Nothing new.

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Re: 6.1 Discussion

Post by Tivook » Mon Feb 16, 2015 12:59 pm

Fieran wrote:
Tivook wrote:I'm quite happy tunnelling the boss still with these buffs, shame about AoE still being awful but we've got plenty of AoE classes in our raid anyway and we already do great ST damage.
I assume you are speaking on PTR as to my knowledge 6.1 isn't hitting for a few weeks at least.
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That was uncalled for and posting stuff like that is unacceptable on these forums. Please treat other users with respect.

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Re: 6.1 Discussion

Post by Whitepaw » Mon Feb 16, 2015 4:35 pm

Dysheki wrote:
Itharius wrote:
Dysheki wrote: Basically more of the same.
A flat ~8% dps boost is pretty significant. I think that catapults us to best single target melee dps.
Yes, that puts us back to where we were for the start of Highmaul. We dropped off a bit and this brings us back. Which is why I'm saying more of the same. Our ST and 2-3 cleave will be excellent. And our target switching and AoE will be terrible.

Nothing new.
How is our target switching terrible?

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Re: 6.1 Discussion

Post by teddabear » Mon Feb 16, 2015 5:35 pm

Whitepaw wrote:
How is our target switching terrible?
I assume most of that can be attributed to a lot of feral damage coming from 2 long duration bleeds.

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Re: 6.1 Discussion

Post by Dysheki » Mon Feb 16, 2015 6:19 pm

Whitepaw wrote:
Dysheki wrote:Yes, that puts us back to where we were for the start of Highmaul. We dropped off a bit and this brings us back. Which is why I'm saying more of the same. Our ST and 2-3 cleave will be excellent. And our target switching and AoE will be terrible.

Nothing new.
How is our target switching terrible?
When I say target switching I assume it won't die within a couple globals and it won't live long enough to benefit from a rip. Those kinds of adds (think aberrations from Imperator) we are just awful at. If we try to pool energy and CPs we ruin our damage. If we do our best to try to line things up (refreshing a rip way earlier than you would like, reloading SR when it still has 15 seconds left - because you want to be ready to blow up that add) we are still low on the totem pole. The only way we even have a chance to compete is by using incarnation/berserk. I basically did negligable damage to those fortified adds on mythic compared to many other raiders. The only reason why it looked even remotely 'ok' was because I had incarnation/berserk for one of them. So it inflated it a bit, but the 2-3 other adds we had to kill? Barely did any damage to them (again, relative to most of the other raiders - some other classes also had issues, but even someone like a shadow priest can SW:D for mega damage whereas our execute doesn't apply).

So yes, feral damage on targets that need to die ASAP is generally poor along with our AoE. Sorry if we're caught up on semantics, not sure.

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Re: 6.1 Discussion

Post by Cantor (Shredable) » Mon Feb 16, 2015 8:30 pm

Dysheki wrote:
Whitepaw wrote:
Dysheki wrote:Yes, that puts us back to where we were for the start of Highmaul. We dropped off a bit and this brings us back. Which is why I'm saying more of the same. Our ST and 2-3 cleave will be excellent. And our target switching and AoE will be terrible.

Nothing new.
How is our target switching terrible?
When I say target switching I assume it won't die within a couple globals and it won't live long enough to benefit from a rip. Those kinds of adds (think aberrations from Imperator) we are just awful at. If we try to pool energy and CPs we ruin our damage. If we do our best to try to line things up (refreshing a rip way earlier than you would like, reloading SR when it still has 15 seconds left - because you want to be ready to blow up that add) we are still low on the totem pole. The only way we even have a chance to compete is by using incarnation/berserk. I basically did negligable damage to those fortified adds on mythic compared to many other raiders. The only reason why it looked even remotely 'ok' was because I had incarnation/berserk for one of them. So it inflated it a bit, but the 2-3 other adds we had to kill? Barely did any damage to them (again, relative to most of the other raiders - some other classes also had issues, but even someone like a shadow priest can SW:D for mega damage whereas our execute doesn't apply).

So yes, feral damage on targets that need to die ASAP is generally poor along with our AoE. Sorry if we're caught up on semantics, not sure.
In addition, Shadow has a talent - Clarity of Power - that specifically increases their ability to deal with short-lived, high-priority adds, by increasing their direct damage by 40% on targets that aren't affected by their DoTs, and buffing Mind Blast. So yes, Feral is in an awful place when it comes to dealing with these types of encounters - Imperator is the main culprit, but you also see it on Flamebender dogs, several Blast Furnace adds (Engineers, Flamemenders) and so on. Now, if it were a choice between AoE and dealing with high priority adds, I'd personally choose the target swapping/burst, but then I run in a raid group that has very powerful AoE, with a DK, Warrior, Moonkin and 2 Enhance Shaman. I realise that AE damage is a more prevalent mechanic however, and hope that it wouldn't come down to a "you can only be good at one of these things" choice, given that Shadow has their bursty talent and is getting their AoE buffed by Insanity in 6.1.

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Re: 6.1 Discussion

Post by Whitepaw » Mon Feb 16, 2015 8:34 pm

Thanks for the arguments, but since we're much more front loaded than the last two expansions - and CP are stored on us, not target - I'll claim that we're better at target switching than we have been for some time.

Are we best? Nope. However, would we enjoy the design needed to being really good at it? That would imply less damage on bleeds, more on auto-attacks and front-loaded abilities. We could of course get another mini-CD like TF to jack up dps on the switch, but that would probably be overpowered.

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Re: 6.1 Discussion

Post by teddabear » Mon Feb 16, 2015 9:06 pm

Better but still bad.

Imo Blizzard has increased the importance of short lived adds in the last year or so. That's just a feeling, might not be correct.

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Re: 6.1 Discussion

Post by Whitepaw » Tue Feb 17, 2015 9:06 am

teddabear wrote:Better but still bad.

Imo Blizzard has increased the importance of short lived adds in the last year or so. That's just a feeling, might not be correct.
If that's true, the adds are trivial and we don't need more AoE abilities to win encounters. Then we just need more AoE to pad meters and secure our raid spots with clueless raid leaders not able to read and interpret logs.

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Re: 6.1 Discussion

Post by Dysheki » Tue Feb 17, 2015 12:03 pm

We are better at it, there is no doubt. But relative to other classes we still suck.

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Lynxx
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Re: 6.1 Discussion

Post by Lynxx » Tue Feb 17, 2015 5:17 pm

Yep, Im with Whitepaw on this one. I dont mind where we are at atm, in terms of what we are good at and what we suck at, but I am having a hard time just getting into groups because "I'm a feral". Im not going boomkin under any circumstances, bleh I hate what they did to it. When it really comes down to losing spots in Raid or pugs because my AoE is weak, but everything else is great, I feel like blizz could address that directly. We dont need SUPER KILL EVERYTHING WITH ONE BUTTON AOE, but we just need less ramp up time and more direct dmg AoE.

Btw im back after a short break for family! Hi everybody! Ive missed my fellow ferals =).
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Re: 6.1 Discussion

Post by Kojiyama » Tue Feb 17, 2015 7:36 pm

Felucia wrote:
Druid
General
Ferocious Bite damage increased by 5%.
Healing Touch no longer heals for 50% more when cast-on-self for Balance Druids.
Mangle damage increased by 27%.
Moonfire's mana cost has been reduced by 55%.
Shred damage increased by 20%.
Thrash (Cat Form) damage increased by 20%.
Feral
Moonfire (Feral) damage increased by 5%.
Rake damage increased by 5%.
Rip damage increased by 5%.
Swipe damage increased by 20%.
I noticed the MMO-Champ datamined spell changes in the newest PTR build and was curious if anyone who had a copied character would be able to confirm what the numbers actually are?

Notably, the datamined changes are not showing the Shred or Moonfire changes and also that the Rip change is a bit smaller than expected (4.2%) from the notes.
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Re: 6.1 Discussion

Post by Aussa » Tue Feb 17, 2015 8:28 pm

Im quite concerned to not see the Shred change as well - If they leave us with only those buffs the entire thing will end up being very minor difference from how the situation is now.

Really hope it's still going to be there :/

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Re: 6.1 Discussion

Post by teddabear » Tue Feb 17, 2015 9:26 pm

I was interested in how the Moonfire change would effect multi-target DPS. Was that just a scaling fix or a legitimate buff to LI?

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Re: 6.1 Discussion

Post by aggixx » Tue Feb 17, 2015 10:27 pm

Kojiyama wrote:Notably, the datamined changes are not showing the Shred or Moonfire changes and also that the Rip change is a bit smaller than expected (4.2%) from the notes.
The patch notes are approximations because they like the AP/weapon damage coefficients to be nice neat numbers. Some are higher some are lower, don't worry about it.
Aussa wrote:Im quite concerned to not see the Shred change as well - If they leave us with only those buffs the entire thing will end up being very minor difference from how the situation is now.

Really hope it's still going to be there :/
No reason to be concerned, they're just not in the summary.
teddabear wrote:I was interested in how the Moonfire change would effect multi-target DPS. Was that just a scaling fix or a legitimate buff to LI?
Doesn't change anything because they raised the damage of all our skills by the same amount, and that's not how scaling works either.
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Itharius
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Re: 6.1 Discussion

Post by Itharius » Wed Feb 18, 2015 4:19 am

Aussa wrote:Im quite concerned to not see the Shred change as well - If they leave us with only those buffs the entire thing will end up being very minor difference from how the situation is now.

Really hope it's still going to be there :/
Honestly, a 20% buff to shred would be overpowered. I'm already doing 43k dps on Gruul with the tier 17 4pc. With an overall single target buff of about 8%, we'd be doing more single target dps than arcane mages. Which would be awesome, but considering our mobility and survivability, might be slightly broken.

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Re: 6.1 Discussion

Post by Amitty » Wed Feb 18, 2015 5:12 am

I disagree. It seems like the devs want us strong on single target, but even after the buffs I doubt that any Feral has a chance against equally skilled and geared Arcane Mage. We might have a chance against Hunters, Rogues and Warriors, but we'll have to wait until next week to find out.

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Re: 6.1 Discussion

Post by teddabear » Wed Feb 18, 2015 7:00 am

Whitepaw wrote:
teddabear wrote:Better but still bad.

Imo Blizzard has increased the importance of short lived adds in the last year or so. That's just a feeling, might not be correct.
If that's true, the adds are trivial and we don't need more AoE abilities to win encounters. Then we just need more AoE to pad meters and secure our raid spots with clueless raid leaders not able to read and interpret logs.
My memory of recent tiers is that the adds are often the most important part of the fight.

Clueless raid leaders will be looking at total DPS, good raid leaders will be looking at damage to adds.

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Re: 6.1 Discussion

Post by smugler » Wed Feb 18, 2015 7:56 am

ive heard from some1 playing ptr that most changes got reverted, specially the single target one, not the rip and rake 5% but the other shred buff i think, is this true?

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Amitty
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Re: 6.1 Discussion

Post by Amitty » Wed Feb 18, 2015 8:16 am

teddabear wrote:My memory of recent tiers is that the adds are often the most important part of the fight.

Clueless raid leaders will be looking at total DPS, good raid leaders will be looking at damage to adds.
Let's have a breakdown for the sake of the AoE damage argument. Also it feels like we are derailing a bit, but hopefully the mods won't mind.

Fights in Mythic BRF with adds :

Flamebender Ka'graz : You want the 4 dogs dead asap. (Feral is not useful here)

Kromog : You want everyone free from the little stone hands asap. You want the Pillars down asap. (Feral is not useful here)

Oregorger : And his crates. Those crates are not high priority though since they will be destroyed long before the boss stops rolling. Feral's mobility and DoTs will allow him to dot multiple boxes. (Feral is useful here)

Beastlord Darmac : Multiple add waves throughout the whole fight. Those adds are not high priority though. High priority is burning the high HP targets as fast as possible. (I'm going to give Feral 50/50 here since he is low on add waves damage, but he is high on combined high HP targets damage)

Operator Thogar : Another fight where you want the adds dead asap for many reasons : tank damage taken, raid damage taken, deadly mechanics, enemy healing. (Feral is not useful here)

The Blast Furnace : This is a complicated encounter that caused many discussions. Obviously a lot of adds are involved. Cleave and AoE as much as you can or focus on important targets or balance the damage or do something else, etc. Raid leaders had a hard time balancing the damage the way they wanted since people love numbers. The thing is that Cleave doesn't hurt - it is actually very benecifial. But then you have targets that you have to kill in a short period of time - something that Feral is not very good at since he has high ramp up time. You can argue here that he can pool Energy and save short/long CDs for those phases. In the end of the day you have an encounter with a massive amount of adds that you want dead before your tanks die - something that Feral can't help a lot with. (Feral is not useful here)

So from 6 fights in BRF where you have some sort of adds involved Feral is not useful on at least 4 of them. You can argue that Feral is relevant since Rule #1 of Raiding is Kill the boss. Feral will always be high on the damage done on the boss. But most fights are more complex than that and require a lot more than tunneling the boss. Once again, with great sadness, I have to admit that bringing another Ret, DK, Warrior or Rogue is better than bringing a Feral.

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Amitty
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Re: 6.1 Discussion

Post by Amitty » Wed Feb 18, 2015 8:26 am

smugler wrote:ive heard from some1 playing ptr that most changes got reverted, specially the single target one, not the rip and rake 5% but the other shred buff i think, is this true?
The changes posted on MMO-Champion seem like small adjustments made to the previously added changes. Example : Swipe was 20% buff, now it's 20.5%. (They must have heard me when I was whining on TS that Swipe needs a 200% buff instead of 20%)

/edit

I did a quick test. No gear, no buffs, no Savage Roar.

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Re: 6.1 Discussion

Post by Polihayse » Wed Feb 18, 2015 8:43 am

smugler wrote:ive heard from some1 playing ptr that most changes got reverted, specially the single target one, not the rip and rake 5% but the other shred buff i think, is this true?
I'm on the ptr now. Shred is definitely doing 20% more. Rake is 5%. Rip is 4%. Swipe is 21%. Thrash is 20%. Ferocious bite is 5%. This is from attacking a target dummy on my PTR druid and live druid with no armor on. Did it a few moments ago.

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