6.1 Discussion

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Thandorr
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Re: 6.1 Patch Notes

Post by Thandorr » Tue Jan 27, 2015 3:00 am

Someone made that statement on Twitter than I noticed, "it would seem as if there isn't even a single dev who plays feral and understands the spec." It's hard to argue with that logic given our identity crisis as of late.

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Re: 6.1 Patch Notes

Post by Grif » Tue Jan 27, 2015 3:30 am

That's why I started to post, with such a small player pool we need to get our voices heard! I'm glad to see other people feeling the same way that I do about the subject. As a spec that has a pretty high skill cap and I feel like I'm not rewarded when giving it my all.

I have a Paladin alt, who is Prot/Ret. When DPSing as Ret it just feels like a joke, i hit my spells in priority and use my ONE CD off cooldown (two if spec'd into it)... It's upsetting having to work so much harder as feral to compete and to see that we're just middle of the pack if not lower (if AoE is involved).

Especially with all the tuning work that is going into Balance. Give us Ferals some love blizz!!

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Re: 6.1 Patch Notes

Post by kaetjaatyy » Tue Jan 27, 2015 6:10 am

TheLOOGE wrote:
Thandorr wrote:Feral has been moved to the back of the bus in the devs eye and attention has been given to every other melee spec over us.
We were discussing this exact issue on Pawket's stream (a very high quality stream I MIGHT ADD ;) ) about Ferals being treated as sort of a lower priority class if that makes any sense. Anyone can see how quickly DK, rogue or warrior changes come down the pike, I mean, they're regularly tweaked as we've seen. Yet it seems like we're kind of always waiting for our turn to get the love we need. It basically comes down to player population. There's an enormous player base that the aforementioned classes have and by comparison, that population dwarfs ours. So the "noise" is a lot louder and thus the attention is focused there. Again, this isn't concrete science, but just a theory as to why things are the way they are.
It might also be related to us being a class with 4 different roles, which leads Blizz to not prioritize each one of the specs with all their love. Also, as a very hybrid class, it might be thought that the DPS doesn't need to shine, because we can always offheal or whatever. Overall though, I feel like in general Blizzard wants people to play ranged more (case example: SoO), and hence melee specs, especially if they are hybrid, get pushed to the non-priority list. Us being strong in PVP doesn't help either, even if it might not be a big contributor to PVE either way.
Thandorr wrote:Someone made that statement on Twitter than I noticed, "it would seem as if there isn't even a single dev who plays feral and understands the spec." It's hard to argue with that logic given our identity crisis as of late.
Strangely enough, I think their lead class designer claimed to play feral in a FinalBoss.tv interview (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PIFvW6veAE0).

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Re: 6.1 Patch Notes

Post by Sibylle » Tue Jan 27, 2015 9:11 am

TheLOOGE wrote:... we're not where we need to be single target in order to justify having the worst AE in the game by a wide, wide margin...
Whitepaw, I'd say that's your answer in a nutshell.

I'm not with the "sky is falling" faction, I think feral is still pretty decent, but as others have stated it's disheartening to be completely ignored in recent patch notes, when at the same time classes that were doing perfectly fine (hunters, warriors) received buffs.
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Re: 6.1 Patch Notes

Post by Polihayse » Tue Jan 27, 2015 2:14 pm

Is it possible that the lack of feral changes in the patch notes mean that some big change is coming? Maybe they are working on a new feral druid model. Maybe feral druids can do more dps by attacking with their shoulders and ears. They look pretty sharp.

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TheLOOGE
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Re: 6.1 Patch Notes

Post by TheLOOGE » Tue Jan 27, 2015 4:01 pm

http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/3594 ... t-1-27-15/

New build going up tonight. Not trying to get anyone's hopes up, just throwin' it out there. Be on the lookout.

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Re: 6.1 Patch Notes

Post by Whitepaw » Tue Jan 27, 2015 5:08 pm

Sibylle wrote:
TheLOOGE wrote:... we're not where we need to be single target in order to justify having the worst AE in the game by a wide, wide margin...
Whitepaw, I'd say that's your answer in a nutshell.

I'm not with the "sky is falling" faction, I think feral is still pretty decent, but as others have stated it's disheartening to be completely ignored in recent patch notes, when at the same time classes that were doing perfectly fine (hunters, warriors) received buffs.
Well, it is an answer, but I disagree with the premis. Any important part of gameplay has to be balanced - or at least attempted to be balanced. So when AoE is important because of boss encounter design, it should be balanced. Designing some specs deliberately strong in single target dps and just as deliberately weak in AoE just creates a bad experience for those specs when AoE is needed - and an equal bad experience for the specs designed to be strong in AoE, but weak in single target. It's not fun to feel redundant.

But the whole "We're being ignored/neglected etc" is untrue and exagerated in my opinion. And it's not even helpful for the discussion. No, we are NOT being ignored, we just need a few buffs in our AoE and we're competitive again. Add some of the suggestions to talent changes mentioned in this thread and we're golden! I mean, when I compare Feral to how we started - or just from patch 1.8 - the spec right now is really well designed, competitive in every part of the game and exciting to play. And it still demands insight and correct execution to maximize performance. That last part was not seen as a certainty during WoD Beta (because the devs back then were also accused of "ignoring" us), but they did come up with some pretty nice solutions, including suggestions from the community.

What I am trying to say is: No, the sky is NOT falling. The Feral spec has a few issues, but it is possible to correct these by buffing excisting abilities, which increases the chance of this issue being fixed in an acceptable way.

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Re: 6.1 Patch Notes

Post by aggixx » Tue Jan 27, 2015 5:36 pm

I don't feel like everything needs to be balanced, thats sort of going down the road to homogeneity, but discrepancies need to be kept to a reasonable level and specializations need to be balanced so that their whole package is competitive. The fact that an enhancement shaman can double/triple our AoE while doing 90% of our single target damage is a little ridiculous.
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Re: 6.1 Patch Notes

Post by aggixx » Tue Jan 27, 2015 5:42 pm

Nothing interesting for anybody this build looks like, just implementing all the promised changes from the patch notes. Although interestingly it seems the FoN change might be absent, but its probably just MMO-C datamining missing things.
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Re: 6.1 Change Discussion

Post by Thandorr » Tue Jan 27, 2015 6:25 pm

In patch 6.1 build 19445 - http://www.wowhead.com/news=245659.3/6- ... ounts-spel#

Did they buff shred, thrash, swipe and rake as this suggests?

I missed this if its been mentioned already elsewhere on FD.

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Re: 6.1 Change Discussion

Post by Sibylle » Tue Jan 27, 2015 6:40 pm

By ignored I mean "not mentioned at all" when most other classes/specs are. Sorry if that was the wrong word, not a native speaker. Again, I'm not in the sky is falling faction, I think you're arguing with the wrong person ;)
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Re: 6.1 Change Discussion

Post by aggixx » Tue Jan 27, 2015 6:45 pm

Thandorr wrote:In patch 6.1 build 19445 - http://www.wowhead.com/news=245659.3/6- ... ounts-spel#

Did they buff shred, thrash, swipe and rake as this suggests?

I missed this if its been mentioned already elsewhere on FD.
No, those changes have been in the game for months.
Sibylle wrote:By ignored I mean "not mentioned at all" when most other classes/specs are. Sorry if that was the wrong word, not a native speaker. Again, I'm not in the sky is falling faction, I think you're arguing with the wrong person ;)
A better word would be "omitted." ;)
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Re: 6.1 Change Discussion

Post by rahba » Wed Jan 28, 2015 2:26 am

The discrpancy in AoE damage between classes has never been this extreme. I mean outliers have always existed but looking at mythic Tectus as an example:

You have shadow priests at the bottom doing 36k dps (the only role doing worse than feral in this fight) and shamans doing 51k dps. Even if you throw out those outliers as mistakes that'll soon be patched, next you're comparing feral (34k) to warriors (48k). That's a 41% damage gap, that's a big enough gap that it would be worth bringing a heroic geared warrior over a mythic feral assuming equal skill.

source: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/6#boss=1722

We're all preaching the choir to here though, and when others in my guild have complained that their class needs tuning I've always told them to stop complaining to us and take it to the WoW forums/twitter. As sad as it is, that seems to be the only way to get things done. The torches and pitchforks don't seem to be out unfortunately and I don't think they will be until ferals from top guilds start rallying the troops.

Personally I'd be happy if we just returned to our monster single target dps, it's kinda of sad that we can't even top a fight like butcher.

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Re: 6.1 Change Discussion

Post by aggixx » Wed Jan 28, 2015 2:54 am

rahba wrote:That's a 41% damage gap, that's a big enough gap that it would be worth bringing a heroic geared warrior over a mythic feral assuming equal skill.
As someone who has both of those things, I can confirm you absolutely would bring in a heroic geared warrior over a mythic feral if they are equally skilled. I can do almost 50k DPS on heroic tectus on my warrior, I can barely even approach such a number on my feral.

But I agree, whenever people say things are balanced "pretty well" I have to wonder what they're smoking.
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Re: 6.1 Change Discussion

Post by Xero » Wed Jan 28, 2015 3:56 am

OUR CRIES HAVE BEEN HEARD!!!


Owait no this is Blizzard, duh...

"Ferocious Bite no longer loses damage when cast with a low amount of Energy while Berserk is active. Berserk will still discount Cat Form abilities' Energy cost, but will include the bonus damage as if it weren't cast with Berserk active."


"Leader of the Pack should now correctly trigger its heal for Druids that have learned the talent, Claws of Shirvallah."

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Re: 6.1 Change Discussion

Post by Zstriker » Wed Jan 28, 2015 6:02 am

thats current bug fixes, though there is nothing in ptr 6.1 data about us
they opened bosses on ptr, so there is also portion of class changes for them to check and analize after that..

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Re: 6.1 Change Discussion

Post by Dysheki » Wed Jan 28, 2015 9:55 am

Zstriker wrote:thats current bug fixes, though there is nothing in ptr 6.1 data about us
they opened bosses on ptr, so there is also portion of class changes for them to check and analize after that..
The thing is we shouldn't have to wait for 6.1 for these things that could be fixed. They've had all of highmaul to see how bad we are at things (definitely not just being the guy at the bottom because someone has to be there, it's just the distance between top and bottom is the worst part) and waiting until well after mythic blackrock is out is frustrating.

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Re: 6.1 Change Discussion

Post by Brutus » Wed Jan 28, 2015 2:38 pm

rahba wrote:The discrpancy in AoE damage between classes has never been this extreme. ... That's a 41% damage gap, that's a big enough gap that it would be worth bringing a heroic geared warrior over a mythic feral assuming equal skill.

source: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/6#boss=1722
Not to be blatantly obvious, but has that been posted with this log on official forums somewhere? That's a rather offensive statistic that needs addressing.

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Re: 6.1 Discussion

Post by Polihayse » Thu Jan 29, 2015 12:38 pm

I don't understand why it is bad that we aren't seeing any changes. Does our dps not scale well with item level compared to other classes? I agree that we are a highly specialized class, but I disagree that we are not great at the things that we can do. Single target and two target cleave are way up there and very few dps can also put out as much healing as we can. From the way everyone is talking it sounds like feral is now the worst class in the game.

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Re: 6.1 Change Discussion

Post by Kojiyama » Thu Jan 29, 2015 12:57 pm

Brutus wrote:
rahba wrote:The discrpancy in AoE damage between classes has never been this extreme. ... That's a 41% damage gap, that's a big enough gap that it would be worth bringing a heroic geared warrior over a mythic feral assuming equal skill.

source: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/6#boss=1722
Not to be blatantly obvious, but has that been posted with this log on official forums somewhere? That's a rather offensive statistic that needs addressing.
Sometimes I feel like they lump Balance and Feral together as if players can easily swap between them. (Which is obviously not true at all due to the availability of items in the relevant slots.) Otherwise, it's hard to explain why the differential has been allowed to stand for so long.

If you look at the 75th percentile for that fight here:
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics ... dataset=75

The interesting thing to me is that if you:
a) Treat Balance and Feral as two 'different classes'
b) Ignore Shadow Priests--who are obviously also busted in AoE fights

You end up with the lowest 'best' spec for any other class being BM Hunters at 44.3k. Ferals are at 37.2k and Shadow Priests are at 33.9k.

This means that Ferals only do 84% of the lowest of the other DPS classes' best available spec for the fight. That is a massive gap. You could buff Feral damage in this fight by 20% and it would still only be good enough to come in dead last. (Note: I also can't understand why Shadow Priest AoE has not been buffed yet either.)

But, hey, Balance is about the same as the best Rogue spec and Feral is about the same as the worst Rogue spec...so Druids are fine, right? :)
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Re: 6.1 Discussion

Post by Nayni » Thu Jan 29, 2015 1:24 pm

Polihayse wrote:I don't understand why it is bad that we aren't seeing any changes. Does our dps not scale well with item level compared to other classes? I agree that we are a highly specialized class, but I disagree that we are not great at the things that we can do. Single target and two target cleave are way up there and very few dps can also put out as much healing as we can. From the way everyone is talking it sounds like feral is now the worst class in the game.
The whole point is that sure, Feral is decent at single target, and decent at two target cleave and with decent I mean about the top 5.

The problem however is that those trades are almost never wanted as a full package. Meaning that bosses like Butcher or like Twin Ogron's are bosses who are always going to be trivial. But fights like Imperator with loads of different scenario's aren't. And this is exacly where the problem of Feral is found. We are only just "decent" at our trade, meaning that I could take any other class/spec who are doing just as good but I get the extra benefit of stuff like incredible cleave, no dps penalty on target swaps, raid cooldown. And the fact is that I only summed up 3 things there but those 3 things are already a huge factor of taking a spec/class over another one.

I'm pretty sure that nobody here won't deny that our single and 2 target cleave dps isn't good. But it's not exceptional either and loads of other classes/specs can do it just as good while doing more. This makes Feral a class that's left out.

Obviously not every feral is going to be benched instantly, as in my case I get by for holding up a good performance and keeping up in damage as much as I can, added with the fact that my guild just doesn't have many replacements to even bring in. But there's places where this is not the case, there's places where raidleaders will look at the overall package of a spec and just ditch feral because it's 'just mediocre' or top guilds who unless they have a really reliable person playing Feral will just take in another DPS and maximize their raidcomp. Not to mention that's even for slower progressing guilds and beginner's it's really hard to enjoy an enviorment where your class is just mediocre when played at high level but other classes are just that much easier or bring that much more even when played suboptimal.
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Re: 6.1 Discussion

Post by Tinderhoof » Thu Jan 29, 2015 1:26 pm

Kojiyama wrote:(Note: I also can't understand why Shadow Priest AoE has not been buffed yet either.)
It has in 6.1. It's a pretty sizeable buff too.

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Re: 6.1 Discussion

Post by Polihayse » Thu Jan 29, 2015 2:42 pm

Nayni wrote:The whole point is that sure, Feral is decent at single target, and decent at two target cleave and with decent I mean about the top 5.
When we talk about feral's ability to perform in single target and two target cleave, what exactly are we referring to? I see people linking statistics from warcraft logs, but I don't agree with the statistical inference that is being drawn from them. In my opinion, feral has a very high skill cap. The average player is not going to pool energy, look at pandemic thresholds, track bleed ratios, tab rake properly, or maintain savage roar and dot uptimes optimally. The average player will hit their abilities as soon as they can when they become available with little insight into the future because that is how all of the other classes work. This is going to make feral look weaker than the other specs when you put them side by side.

If you are referring to sims, I would think that feral is the most difficult spec to sim. There are hundreds of different situations that are difficult to name where you need to react a certain way. There are so many possibilities that I find it very hard to explain feral dps to people who ask me questions about it. The large amount of downtime in the spec gives you time to think about how you should react to these situations. This is just what I think anyway.

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Re: 6.1 Discussion

Post by Nayni » Thu Jan 29, 2015 2:54 pm

Polihayse wrote:
Nayni wrote:The whole point is that sure, Feral is decent at single target, and decent at two target cleave and with decent I mean about the top 5.
When we talk about feral's ability to perform in single target and two target cleave, what exactly are we referring to? I see people linking statistics from warcraft logs, but I don't agree with the statistical inference that is being drawn from them. In my opinion, feral has a very high skill cap. The average player is not going to pool energy, look at pandemic thresholds, track bleed ratios, tab rake properly, or maintain savage roar and dot uptimes optimally. The average player will hit their abilities as soon as they can when they become available with little insight into the future because that is how all of the other classes work. This is going to make feral look weaker than the other specs when you put them side by side.

If you are referring to sims, I would think that feral is the most difficult spec to sim. There are hundreds of different situations that are difficult to name where you need to react a certain way. There are so many possibilities that I find it very hard to explain feral dps to people who ask me questions about it. The large amount of downtime in the spec gives you time to think about how you should react to these situations. This is just what I think anyway.
In what way is statistical data not a good measurement?

And tbh, the argument of skill cap on a class is complete bullshit. I'll agree that you can't compare outputs in a 1 to 1 ratio and disregard player skill, but there are enough logs and statistical data to make assumptions and conclusions at this point.

The fact remains that you can't possibly argue that Feral is so good at what it does that it evens out its weaknessess right now, because everything indicates that it doesn't. As Pawket's and multiple others have repeated multiple times the discrpancy between the stuff feral is good at and the stuff feral is bad at, is to large compared to any other class/spec.

I am guessing you're in the same situation I'm in, which is that your are the only main raiding Feral in your guild, same as many many others here on this forum. Well there's a reason there is only 1 Feral and to be fair, we could be replaced in a heartbeat and the guilds wouldn't even notice, infact they'd benefit from it at this point. And that's where the true problem lies imo.
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Re: 6.1 Discussion

Post by Kojiyama » Thu Jan 29, 2015 2:57 pm

Polihayse wrote:
Nayni wrote:The whole point is that sure, Feral is decent at single target, and decent at two target cleave and with decent I mean about the top 5.
When we talk about feral's ability to perform in single target and two target cleave, what exactly are we referring to? I see people linking statistics from warcraft logs, but I don't agree with the statistical inference that is being drawn from them. In my opinion, feral has a very high skill cap. The average player is not going to pool energy, look at pandemic thresholds, track bleed ratios, tab rake properly, or maintain savage roar and dot uptimes optimally. The average player will hit their abilities as soon as they can when they become available with little insight into the future because that is how all of the other classes work. This is going to make feral look weaker than the other specs when you put them side by side.
That is why people generally look at various percentile ranks in Warcraft Logs. I think we can safely assume, for instance, that anyone in the 99th percentile for any class knows what they are doing. Generally speaking, the 75th percentile are all going to be pretty hardcore raiders to various degrees that likely have a solid understanding of how to play their class.

Skill cap changes the ratio between the DPS at the 50th and 99th percentile but you should still be able to compare classes at the top percentiles with a degree of accuracy.
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