6.1 Discussion

Face-rippin fun.

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Whitepaw
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Re: 6.1 Discussion

Post by Whitepaw » Thu Jan 29, 2015 3:55 pm

And just when some feel we are ignored:
https://twitter.com/warcraftdevs/status ... 9746178049

Yeah, a buff to AoE would have been nice.

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AsgardFM
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Re: 6.1 Discussion

Post by AsgardFM » Thu Jan 29, 2015 4:50 pm

While I'm all for hearing about our aoe, there's no point getting upset over this.
Different teams for graphics and balancing. Though I do wonder if these changes go beyond "addition" costumes and into proper transformations

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Polihayse
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Re: 6.1 Discussion

Post by Polihayse » Thu Jan 29, 2015 5:10 pm

Nayni wrote:In what way is statistical data not a good measurement?
My bad. I thought it was a collection of all parses. When I look at the 75th/99th percentile I see your point. What about healing done though? We are essentially next in line for healing done after tanks and healers. Also, feral druids are very good at avoiding damage when it matters. In order for feral to not be viable, there needs to be a class that is better than feral in all of these aspects, or the move set that feral brings to the raid is not needed.

As for there being no reason to have more than one feral druid, the same applies to just about every melee. Death knights would be the exception since they bring death grip which is a very useful ability to have in the raid.
See. How could you not want more than one flying cat in your raid lol.

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Re: 6.1 Discussion

Post by aggixx » Thu Jan 29, 2015 5:18 pm

Kojiyama wrote:I think we can safely assume, for instance, that anyone in the 99th percentile for any class knows what they are doing.
There's two problems with this assumption:
a) Just because you got 99th percentile doesn't mean you're playing perfectly. There definitely is room for mistakes in gameplay and still getting 99th percentile.
b) By looking at 99th percentile you're narrowing the sample to what is often a very small amount which makes it more influenced by factors like padding (or other unorthodox things that give that person an advantage), DPS range / RNG, etc.

Not to say it isn't a valuable statistic but it is not the end-all-be-all spec balance indicator, far from it.

I would tend to agree with Polihayse that the spec's skill curve can make it look worse than it can be at the higher end. I mean, I got r1 on Twin Ogron this week by more than 3k DPS with less gear than most and completely reasonable (average) RNG; I'm not going to say I'm the best player ever (I certainly made at least a few mistakes), or that there aren't private parses out there with higher values, but I'm not sure what else you could possibly call this an indicator of but a gap in performance between that parse and a majority of the other public parses.
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Re: 6.1 Discussion

Post by Nayni » Thu Jan 29, 2015 5:23 pm

Polihayse wrote:
Nayni wrote:In what way is statistical data not a good measurement?
My bad. I thought it was a collection of all parses. When I look at the 75th/99th percentile I see your point. What about healing done though? We are essentially next in line for healing done after tanks and healers. Also, feral druids are very good at avoiding damage when it matters. In order for feral to not be viable, there needs to be a class that is better than feral in all of these aspects, or the move set that feral brings to the raid is not needed.

As for there being no reason to have more than one feral druid, the same applies to just about every melee. Death knights would be the exception since they bring death grip which is a very useful ability to have in the raid.
Any class has to be able to avoid the mechanic in order to actualy do the boss. I agree Feral has an edge in some cases to handle mechanics more easely when it comes to movement or survival but that's only our personal survival.

And I can't think of a guild that would say no to replacing a Feral for an equally skilled Ret paladin/Warrior/Rogue/DK. Since 3 of those actualy bring raid CDs to help the survival of the raid instead of personal survival.

I don't mean to negate all your arguments btw, loads of the stuff you say would be so right if just small balancing would be done but right now the fact remains that there are just better options then feral. I would've loved to come in and tell you hell yes to all that :)
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Polihayse
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Re: 6.1 Discussion

Post by Polihayse » Thu Jan 29, 2015 5:36 pm

Did you forget about stampeding roar? That seems to help a lot. Also, I think feral needs a buff too. I'm just trying to create some discussion to show why. All of this negative talk is getting me down.
Last edited by Polihayse on Thu Jan 29, 2015 5:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 6.1 Discussion

Post by Tinderhoof » Thu Jan 29, 2015 5:39 pm

Polihayse wrote:As for there being no reason to have more than one feral druid, the same applies to just about every melee. Death knights would be the exception since they bring death grip which is a very useful ability to have in the raid.
Both Warriors and Rogues bring a Raid CD (Rally, Smoke Bomb). They are exceptional at cleave and AoE and very good at single target. Ret's have bubble and great AoE.

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Re: 6.1 Discussion

Post by Tinderhoof » Thu Jan 29, 2015 5:41 pm

Polihayse wrote:Did you forget about stampeding roar? That seems to help a lot. Also, I think feral needs a buff too. I'm just trying to create some discussion to show why. All of this negative talk is getting me down.
Roar is also brought by Boomkins, Guardians, and Resto's. They are all more desirable then a Feral. And you don't bring a class just for Roar. It's helpful, but not compared to Rally or Smoke Bomb plus the better damage profile.

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Re: 6.1 Discussion

Post by aggixx » Thu Jan 29, 2015 5:42 pm

Tinderhoof wrote:And you don't bring a class just for Roar.
Eh, depends on the fight. On something like Imperator you could, but yeah if you already have 2 other druids that's generally all the roars you need.
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Re: 6.1 Discussion

Post by Tinderhoof » Thu Jan 29, 2015 5:46 pm

Polihayse wrote:We are essentially next in line for healing done after tanks and healers.
A lot was made about this during beta, but when it comes down too it, extra hot healing isn't really that attractive. Sure we can show up on the meters, but is the Rejuv healing really all that effective? Have you really saved someone who was going to die with it? Can the healers move a cooldown to a different place because the Feral heals can prop up part of the fight? Can you subtract a healer because a Feral can carry enough of the load?
The answer to these is no. NI does so little healing because we just don't have lots of big hits. Death by a million paper cuts is how we roll. HotW just isn't useful unless we stop all damage. Even than it's not that good because the Rejuv still has to tick. Unlike other raiding cooldowns that prevent deaths like Rally, or prevent Damage like Smoke Bomb, or save a life like bubble, we just can't stack up.

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Re: 6.1 Discussion

Post by Kojiyama » Thu Jan 29, 2015 5:57 pm

aggixx wrote:
Kojiyama wrote:I think we can safely assume, for instance, that anyone in the 99th percentile for any class knows what they are doing.
There's two problems with this assumption:
a) Just because you got 99th percentile doesn't mean you're playing perfectly. There definitely is room for mistakes in gameplay and still getting 99th percentile.
b) By looking at 99th percentile you're narrowing the sample to what is often a very small amount which makes it more influenced by factors like padding (or other unorthodox things that give that person an advantage), DPS range / RNG, etc.

Not to say it isn't a valuable statistic but it is not the end-all-be-all spec balance indicator, far from it.

I would tend to agree with Polihayse that the spec's skill curve can make it look worse than it can be at the higher end. I mean, I got r1 on Twin Ogron this week by more than 3k DPS with less gear than most and completely reasonable (average) RNG, I'm not sure what else you could possibly call this an indicator of.
True about the low sample size, which is often when I look at 95th percentile or even 75th percentile.

I think the skill cap issue is somewhat overstated. There is certainly a factor to consider there, but that is typically only really a case when the trending between percentile ranges is uneven.

Good example, Feral druids in the 50th percentile are the 2nd lowest DPS on Heroic Mar'gok. Part of this could be that the class is difficult to optimize in a fight like this, but let's look at the top-end for comparison. When sorting by max DPS, Feral druids are still the 3rd lowest DPS on Heroic Mar'gok. So the performance issues in that case are broadly not going to be related to a skill cap issue.

Elemental Shaman are probably a better example of where skill/gear changes the ranking massively, as they are ranked 12th at 50th percentile but have the 4th highest max. The other case with a dramatic change are Shadow Priests--probably due to scaling issues. Otherwise, there is not a huge difference between 50th percentile and max rankings between classes.

There are only 4 specs (Shadow, Elemental, Frost DK, Fury) that change ranking position by more than 3 ranks between 50th percentile and max.

The lowest spec on Mar'gok at the 50th percentile (Affliction) is 81% of the damage of the top performing class (Enhacement) while at the max DPS, the lowest performing (still Affliction) is 61% of the damage of the top performing class. This is likely due to various scaling issues. If you normalize the gaps in both cases, most classes plot at roughly the same point in the scale in both cases.

For instance, even though Retribution Paladins are 90% of the max at 50th and 80% of the absolute max, if you normalize the scales to 0-100% of the min/max they fall at exactly 49% along the scale in both cases.

In a normalized case, the only classes with major (15% +/-) jumps are:
1) Elemental +45%
2) Frost Mage +16%
3) Unholy -19%
4) Shadow -31%

Otherwise, the relative normalized performance at both ranges are pretty similar for the majority of specs.

I think there is more than enough data here to eliminate skill cap as a major factor. Tuning is always going to be the dominating factor in most cases where players are good enough to be clearing high-end raid content. Performance on fights is often driven heavily by execution on difficult fights rather than people not knowing what buttons to press.
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Polihayse
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Re: 6.1 Discussion

Post by Polihayse » Thu Jan 29, 2015 6:01 pm

I think that I have saved a group with NV before on butcher. Sometimes a person in my melee group can drop as low as 5% and their death could potentially cause the rest of the melee group to die. When I pair NV with my 3 minute cds, LDSC, and potion for the last leg of the fight I can put out heals as large as 50k and keep that person from dying. I see your point though. Feral can do some things to help the raid, but it isn't as comparable to what other classes can do.

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Re: 6.1 Discussion

Post by DomGF » Fri Jan 30, 2015 2:46 am

Tinderhoof wrote:
Polihayse wrote:As for there being no reason to have more than one feral druid, the same applies to just about every melee. Death knights would be the exception since they bring death grip which is a very useful ability to have in the raid.
Both Warriors and Rogues bring a Raid CD (Rally, Smoke Bomb). They are exceptional at cleave and AoE and very good at single target. Ret's have bubble and great AoE.
And Sac and LoH and HoP and uuuh also a bit of off healing if they wanted to. Rets are masters of utility in melee.

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Re: 6.1 Discussion

Post by noreko » Fri Jan 30, 2015 2:14 pm

To be honest, I don't see why the developers can't bump up swipes damage to how it used to be? If the fear is it would become better than shred than take out the combo point generation from it. Thrash getting a buff wouldn't hurt either. Another dot to manage would be fun.

As for our single target/cleave... we are scaling very poorly. At the start of the expansion my single target and cleave was much closer to other classes than it is now. I know that a lot of specs received some lovely buffs, but the gear scaling is hurting us pretty badly too. I mean, going from being a few hundred DPS behind our mage to a few thousand dps behind the same mage has to mean that something is wrong, right?

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Re: 6.1 Discussion

Post by Tinderhoof » Fri Jan 30, 2015 4:55 pm

Our scaling has always been bad. The thing is the game isn't really designed around balancing scaling. It's hard enough to balance in the moment and still remain distinct an unique while also keeping as much past flavor as possible. They basically design around what they want for the flow of a spec to be and adjust as needed. We totally need an adjustment for sure. I just doubt scaling will really be addressed.

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Re: 6.1 Discussion

Post by Polihayse » Fri Jan 30, 2015 6:27 pm

I was just thought of something that would be pretty neat. Maybe something like abilities that you gain when you reach a certain ilvl. Of course I'm not saying this should be a way to fix feral at the moment, but I think it would be fun.

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Re: 6.1 Discussion

Post by Dwade » Sat Jan 31, 2015 10:49 am

I have been thinking this whole time that blizz would get to us eventually, but that is looking more unlikely each day now. Can only hope that they are taking a hard look at the data from raid testing on the ptr and make some proper adjustments to our spec.
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Re: 6.1 Discussion

Post by TheLOOGE » Sat Jan 31, 2015 11:55 am

Dwade wrote:Can only hope that they are taking a hard look at the data from raid testing on the ptr and make some proper adjustments to our spec.
Yeah, this was my thought as well. There must be internal data that they're looking at that leads them to believe we'll be in good shape. Would loooove to see this data but... ya.

Interestingly enough, Lore tweeted the other day on his personal account what I believe to have been a Freudian Slip if you will regarding Feral viability. "Ferals are pretty strong right now tho." Naturally, he immediately walked that back, mentioning that nothing he says on his personal account should be taken seriously. Perhaps he's right. Then again, after watching a lot of his content throughout the years, he strikes me as someone who has the propensity of being verbally clumsy. Like, the type of guy you wouldn't tell which girl (or guy) you had a crush on because they'd end up telling them "accidentally." Ergo, I have a hard time simply discarding it entirely, but that's just me personally.

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Re: 6.1 Discussion

Post by Zenomni » Sat Jan 31, 2015 12:50 pm

Personally i think our single target dps is fine and aoe is just plain rubbish. But my problem is with the way we do dmg i personally would like to see fb nerfed and rip and rake buffed to compensate. And while were at it nerf incarnation aswell. Druid feels like a one trick pony to me atm. Use incarnation to skyrocket dps then do mediocre dps untill incarnation is up again. I personally hate incarnation it feels really broken but it keeps our dps on par with other classes.

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Re: 6.1 Discussion

Post by Polihayse » Sat Jan 31, 2015 3:24 pm

Dwade wrote:I have been thinking this whole time that blizz would get to us eventually, but that is looking more unlikely each day now. Can only hope that they are taking a hard look at the data from raid testing on the ptr and make some proper adjustments to our spec.
I'm not sure how much mythic testing on the ptr will help. The mythic bosses only last for like 2 minutes if you are in a group that doesn't know much of what is going on. In this two minutes it makes feral look very good.

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Re: 6.1 Discussion

Post by Grif » Sat Jan 31, 2015 3:40 pm

Zenomni wrote:Personally i think our single target dps is fine and aoe is just plain rubbish. But my problem is with the way we do dmg i personally would like to see fb nerfed and rip and rake buffed to compensate. And while were at it nerf incarnation aswell. Druid feels like a one trick pony to me atm. Use incarnation to skyrocket dps then do mediocre dps untill incarnation is up again. I personally hate incarnation it feels really broken but it keeps our dps on par with other classes.
This exactly, Incarnation feels awesome for those 30 seconds its up, but when it's gone our DPS is pretty shit, this roller coaster makes the spec feel terrible. I feel like Incarnation is an incredibly cheesy talent, it should stay as a PvP only option. Feral is about our bleeds, let it show that blizzard!

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Re: 6.1 Discussion

Post by ShmooDude » Sat Jan 31, 2015 9:26 pm

Grif wrote:
Zenomni wrote:Personally i think our single target dps is fine and aoe is just plain rubbish. But my problem is with the way we do dmg i personally would like to see fb nerfed and rip and rake buffed to compensate. And while were at it nerf incarnation aswell. Druid feels like a one trick pony to me atm. Use incarnation to skyrocket dps then do mediocre dps untill incarnation is up again. I personally hate incarnation it feels really broken but it keeps our dps on par with other classes.
This exactly, Incarnation feels awesome for those 30 seconds its up, but when it's gone our DPS is pretty shit, this roller coaster makes the spec feel terrible. I feel like Incarnation is an incredibly cheesy talent, it should stay as a PvP only option. Feral is about our bleeds, let it show that blizzard!
Yeah, its weird, we went from primarily sustained damage in MoP to primarily burst damage. I remember back on say iron juggernaut, that I'd be like 10th or so first 20 or so seconds into the fight, then creep back up and end up in first by the end of the fight. Things are exactly the opposite of that now.

For curiosities sake, I actually went and looked at the DPS timeline of all the classes. There's other specs that function this way: Marksman, Fire Mage, Enhancement are the ones I see looking at the graphs (its hard to tell at a glance cause the graphs are scaled to the spec's peak DPS).

Maybe they'll buff SotF so that it could be a sustained option on par with incarnation, but I rather doubt it.

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Re: 6.1 Discussion

Post by Cryphoxx » Sat Jan 31, 2015 10:48 pm

I actually like Incarnation because it lets you forget for a couple of seconds how much downtime you have as a feral (and pls don't come with 'shit' like we can throw rejuvs around/CW or something like that) and i personally have the most fun while in incarnation.

Yet the problem i have i chose Druid as a DPS class (well tbh i am a main tank in my guild atm but welp...) is because of the way they do damage. i LOVE dots. but because our dots were too strong in pvp we got 'nerfed' into the 1 button burst class we are now.

The way it feels playing right feral right now makes me actually enjoying being a guardian druid. they have their problems too (weakest tank atm but doesn't really matter since the boss dmg is pretty low imo) but even going into feral spec is just... hurting somewhere deep inside.
i really hope blizzard will change the feral back to the hardcore bleed style we had. i also hate it to no end that our rip is actually weaker than Rake..... i mean not per cast but over the course of a fight.

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Re: 6.1 Discussion

Post by Tinderhoof » Sun Feb 01, 2015 12:29 am

Rake was more powerful then Rip for the first two tiers of MoP. It wasn't until the 3rd week of SoO when they buffed Rip 20%. Rake being more powerful then Rip is not something new.

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Re: 6.1 Discussion

Post by Kojiyama » Sun Feb 01, 2015 1:03 am

Cryphoxx wrote:I actually like Incarnation because it lets you forget for a couple of seconds how much downtime you have as a feral (and pls don't come with 'shit' like we can throw rejuvs around/CW or something like that) and i personally have the most fun while in incarnation.
Obviously, this is as much due to Berserk's tuning as Incarnation as well. Berserk provides the energy and Incarnation provides the combo points and damage spike.

Berserk is a strange one to me in that it seems almost overkill. We go from basically 50% downtime up to capping (and potentially losing) energy just with a couple clearcasting procs during Berserk. I like the idea that SotF could smooth that out a bit, but I wonder if Berserk couldn't be a little better balanced.
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