Is feral being ignored?

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Polihayse
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Is feral being ignored?

Post by Polihayse » Fri Feb 13, 2015 4:31 am

I visit mmo-champion, the wow druid forums, and this website everyday to find information on feral, but I have not seen any responses from blizzard regarding the current state of feral in a long time. Is there somewhere else I can look for information? From what I've seen, it seems like blizzard is ignoring the feral druid class as well as the feral druid community. It feels like my favorite spec has been forgotten. If blizzard thinks that feral does not need a change, I at least want to know this so I can start building a moonkin set.

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Amitty
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Re: Is feral being ignored?

Post by Amitty » Fri Feb 13, 2015 8:03 am

In my opinion the Dev team doesn't want to spend time and resources on one of the most underrepresented specs. That's why a lot of Ferals rolled different spec or class. It's hard for me to admit, but you can pick almost any other melee spec, assuming both players are on the same skill level, and they will be more beneficial to the raid group.

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Re: Is feral being ignored?

Post by inseedious » Fri Feb 13, 2015 8:44 am

I'm starting to think that, since:
1) all items except neck, cloak, rings and trinkets have both agility and intellect
2) only the exceptions to the 1) statement can be enchanted (so, no need to change enchants with the spec)
3) it's just one tier for all specs,
Blizzard is encouraging us to switch from Feral to Balance for AoE fights, instead of balancing them.

But, if it's true, Blizz should at least tell it somehow, cause there are plenty of Ferals stuck in this situation, cause they're afraid that, by the time they'll have grabbed their Balance gear and have mastered the spec, a sudden Balance nerf or Feral buff will come.
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Re: Is feral being ignored?

Post by Kojiyama » Fri Feb 13, 2015 11:42 am

*and weapons

(Which is a big one, since every main spec caster will get priority over the very limited supply of weapons before most guilds will put resources into a Feral trying to OS as Balance. Even if it is useful, it's still more useful to gear up mains that will use it on every fight.)

I'm still struggling to gear up my weapon and trinket slots after going Balance for Beastlord and a few other fights. I would probably go Balance more often, but the gearing difficulties are no joke.
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Polihayse
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Re: Is feral being ignored?

Post by Polihayse » Fri Feb 13, 2015 6:28 pm

Is it possible that blizzard is not giving their opinion on feral because it would cause more people to swap classes?

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Re: Is feral being ignored?

Post by aggixx » Fri Feb 13, 2015 6:33 pm

I imagine they've stopped "casual" communication because they don't want to say things before they've decided their plan of action and then get held to it by ravenous players who don't understand their iterative design process. This is why pretty much every balance statement they've made for weeks/months have been "yes and here's what we're planning to do".
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Re: Is feral being ignored?

Post by TheLOOGE » Fri Feb 13, 2015 6:55 pm

Blizzard is holding the cards close to their chest, so to speak. They aren't expounding on anything other than what the training dummies do outside of your garrison. So if you're looking for answers Poli, well you're not alone.

Reality is, all classes feel like they're being ignored. Because they are. Before the holidays [read: Christmas break], there was a steady flow of communication from each Dev as it pertained to their respective division. Now the centralized WarcraftDevs Twitter account is nothing more than a Tweet wastebasket. Well, maybe not for all questions or comments. Certainly if someone has a problem with how a garden hoe looks visually on their character, that kind of issue is addressed. But class balance? Forget about it.

Supposedly there's quite a bit of "behind the scenes" communication going on between players and Devs. I'd love to know what's being exchanged but I feel like if there actually is any real dialogue happening, obviously nothing is being publicized. Maybe for good reason. Maybe if the chosen people start talking about what's being said behind closed doors, that "well of information" or communication might dry up. Can't say I blame them for being tight lipped in that instance, if that were the case. Conversely, I'm very leery of having a select few people from each class or community be the "spokespersons" or "representatives" of that respective class or spec, especially because none of us (me particularly) voted to have that person(s) to have that position. What could that person be saying? Do they speak for me? For the greater good of the class? Do they truly represent what you or I believe should be the answer to our raiding woes?

I don't mean to open Pandora's Box here or sound conspiratorial but there are quite a few questions that still need answered. But I feel like we won't hear anything solid at least from Devs for another 2-3 weeks -- probably right after the progression race has ended for the competing, elite guilds.

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Re: Is feral being ignored?

Post by Tinderhoof » Fri Feb 13, 2015 7:18 pm

aggixx wrote:I imagine they've stopped "casual" communication because they don't want to say things before they've decided their plan of action and then get held to it by ravenous players who don't understand their iterative design process. This is why pretty much every balance statement they've made for weeks/months have been "yes and here's what we're planning to do".
Exactly this. Least we all forget the "Bloody Thrash" mess. It's no wonder they don't like to throw out ideas to the general public.

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Re: Is feral being ignored?

Post by Tinderhoof » Fri Feb 13, 2015 8:29 pm


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Re: Is feral being ignored?

Post by Bluewulf » Fri Feb 13, 2015 9:02 pm

Tinderhoof wrote:Going to leave this here...http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/17561381#druid

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Re: Is feral being ignored?

Post by Brutus » Fri Feb 13, 2015 9:10 pm

Tinderhoof wrote:Going to leave this here...http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/17561381#druid
This just made my weekend!

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Re: Is feral being ignored?

Post by teddabear » Sat Feb 14, 2015 12:15 am

Guesstimate without napkin math is Feral around #3 on single target after 4pc and still somewhat low on AoE with Rake still being the preferrred method of AoE in almost all circumstances due to the Rake bonus and set bonus.

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Re: Is feral being ignored?

Post by Polihayse » Sat Feb 14, 2015 3:25 am

Druids get this:

Ferocious Bite damage increased by 5%
Shred damage increased by 20%.
Thrash (Cat Form) damage increased by 20%.
Rake damage increased by 5%.
Rip damage increased by 5%.
Swipe damage increased by 20%.
Starfall damage decreased by 16.6% (Deals five sixths of its current damage).

and then this:

Chimaera Shot damage increased by 30.4%.
Comet Storm (Frost) damage has increased by 94% but deals 33.3% less damage in PvP combat.
Barrage damage has been increased by 21%.
Exhilaration now instantly heals for 30% of max health (up from 22%).
Glaive Toss damage has been increased by 25%.
Powershot damage has been increased by 62%.
Stampede now lasts 40 seconds (up from 20 seconds).


These buffs/nerfs confuse me. Why are the numbers so even for druid and so uneven for mages and hunters? To me, it looks like they knew feral needed a buff, but they didn't want to spend more than 10 minutes changing it to figure out how much it should be buffed by. I should probably just be grateful that something about feral changed.

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Re: Is feral being ignored?

Post by aggixx » Sat Feb 14, 2015 3:38 am

They buffed our AoE by 20% and our single target by 5%, I'm assuming the reason why Shred defies that is they don't want us using Swipe on 2 target cleave so they had to buff Shred to give them breathing room to buff Swipe.

Usually when you see numbers like "16.6%" or "30.4%" its because they're changing a AP coefficient or weapon damage multiplier from the current nice number to a new nice number. Eg something like 245% weapon damage -> 350% weapon damage is a 42.9% buff, which would sound weird but not as weird as "Savage Strike's weapon damage multiplier has been raised to 350%" because that doesn't really tell you anything. That doesn't necessarily mean the value they picked is any more or less arbitrary.
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Re: Is feral being ignored?

Post by teddabear » Sat Feb 14, 2015 3:45 am

aggixx wrote:They buffed our AoE by 20% and our single target by 5%, I'm assuming the reason why Shred defies that is they don't want us using Swipe on 2 target cleave so they had to buff Shred to give them breathing room to buff Swipe.
Swiping 2 targets does sound awkward but from a game standpoint why would that be bad?

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Re: Is feral being ignored?

Post by aggixx » Sat Feb 14, 2015 4:09 am

Don't ask me.
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Re: Is feral being ignored?

Post by Tremnen » Sat Feb 14, 2015 5:56 am

something that needs to be remembered is that swipe is hard to balance because of primal fury. Just because it does less damage doesnt mean it doesnt give less damage after you factor in combo points at a certain number of targets. It really depends on how much Damage do you think a combo point is worth and if that trade off is worth it over the more damage of shred. This is mainly because when you swipe each target is rolled separately for whether it was crit or not. since you only need 1 target to be crit to get the bonus combo point the more targets the more likely you will get 2 combo points per swipe.

This is a topic I always found fascinating as it changes really radically. Is it worth swiping 6 targets and if so at what crit % for an extra combo point? And if it is what about 5 targets or 4? Did you remember to check if you had 4 CP before swiping as that could be a wasted swipe since you cant go over 5 cp. If someone has done the math for this I'd be very appreciative. I have been meaning to sit down and make a formula for it myself.

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Re: Is feral being ignored?

Post by Tremnen » Sat Feb 14, 2015 5:59 am

also technically they buffed our aoe less than 20% as rake is a core part of our aoe still :P

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Re: Is feral being ignored?

Post by teddabear » Sat Feb 14, 2015 6:37 am

Tremnen wrote:something that needs to be remembered is that swipe is hard to balance because of primal fury. Just because it does less damage doesnt mean it doesnt give less damage after you factor in combo points at a certain number of targets. It really depends on how much Damage do you think a combo point is worth and if that trade off is worth it over the more damage of shred. This is mainly because when you swipe each target is rolled separately for whether it was crit or not. since you only need 1 target to be crit to get the bonus combo point the more targets the more likely you will get 2 combo points per swipe.

This is a topic I always found fascinating as it changes really radically. Is it worth swiping 6 targets and if so at what crit % for an extra combo point? And if it is what about 5 targets or 4? Did you remember to check if you had 4 CP before swiping as that could be a wasted swipe since you cant go over 5 cp. If someone has done the math for this I'd be very appreciative. I have been meaning to sit down and make a formula for it myself.
I did not restate it here but all my posts regarding buffing Swipe to fix Feral AoE involved removing the combo points.

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Re: Is feral being ignored?

Post by Stenhaldi » Sat Feb 14, 2015 6:55 am

Tremnen wrote:something that needs to be remembered is that swipe is hard to balance because of primal fury. Just because it does less damage doesnt mean it doesnt give less damage after you factor in combo points at a certain number of targets. It really depends on how much Damage do you think a combo point is worth and if that trade off is worth it over the more damage of shred. This is mainly because when you swipe each target is rolled separately for whether it was crit or not. since you only need 1 target to be crit to get the bonus combo point the more targets the more likely you will get 2 combo points per swipe.

This is a topic I always found fascinating as it changes really radically. Is it worth swiping 6 targets and if so at what crit % for an extra combo point? And if it is what about 5 targets or 4? Did you remember to check if you had 4 CP before swiping as that could be a wasted swipe since you cant go over 5 cp. If someone has done the math for this I'd be very appreciative. I have been meaning to sit down and make a formula for it myself.
Even if swipe did as much damage as shred and had 100% crit chance (infinitely many targets), it would still be only a small single-target gain over shred. The reason is that 35-40% of shred's effective damage is in the combo point (assuming it's spent on ferocious bite), and the crit chance increase boosts that by a little under 50% at typical crit rates, so this yields an overall increase of under 20%. Meanwhile, swipe costs 12.5% more than shred.

Here's my toy spreadsheet if you'd like to play around with the numbers (and are able to decipher it): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_deFw ... RHUDA/view Note this version doesn't include today's tuning changes, but that's easy to fix.

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Re: Is feral being ignored?

Post by Tremnen » Sat Feb 14, 2015 6:59 am

wow thanks for this!!! I can read it really clearly thanks a ton!

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Re: Is feral being ignored?

Post by inseedious » Sat Feb 14, 2015 12:41 pm

Just wondering if, when this fix will go live, it will still be worth to gear crit>mastery over crit>multistrike for a balanced setup...
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Re: Is feral being ignored?

Post by Tinderhoof » Sat Feb 14, 2015 1:18 pm

A balanced setup already is crit->mastery over crit->multistrike. These changes will not modify that.

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Re: Is feral being ignored?

Post by inseedious » Sat Feb 14, 2015 1:44 pm

Tinderhoof wrote:A balanced setup already is crit->mastery over crit->multistrike. These changes will not modify that.
I actually asked if crit>master will STILL be the right choice for balanced setup. With shred 20% buff vs only 5% buff to rake/rip, and the buffed swipe stealing the scene from tab rake with about 7+ targets, mastery will be an overall slightly worse stat then before. The gap between multi and mastery in single target damage will be bigger, and in swiping scenarios mastery will affect trash only, and multistrike can have an edge there too.
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Re: Is feral being ignored?

Post by Tagbear » Sat Feb 14, 2015 1:54 pm

Tell me more about these swiping scenarios.

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