Is feral being ignored?

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Kojiyama
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Re: Is feral being ignored?

Post by Kojiyama » Sat Feb 14, 2015 2:06 pm

Inseedious: Was anyone really tab-Raking with 7 targets anyway though? Pretty sure we were only Thrashing and focusing the boss in almost every scenario like this already.

The thing is that even though tab-Rake was technically the highest AoE DPS, it still has never been high enough to be worth either the time or the potential error involved with lots of targets around.

All this has done is lower the Swipe threshold from 'when we absolutely suck' to 'when we strongly suck' and still doesn't really change much of anything. The Thrash change is nice because we would be throwing Thrashes out anyway for the 2pc Energy and the reasonably solid DPET.

Like Sten broke down with the spreadsheet, Swipe could be buffed massively with no real change on single-target--especially with the buff to Shred in the same notes. I'm not totally sure what the goal of a 20% Swipe buff is, really. 20% of 0 is still 0--which is exactly how much it will ever get used by most high-end Feral. It really needed a much larger increase.
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Re: Is feral being ignored?

Post by Tinderhoof » Sat Feb 14, 2015 2:52 pm

Beat me too it. Well put Kojiyama.

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Re: Is feral being ignored?

Post by teddabear » Sat Feb 14, 2015 5:46 pm

Stenhaldi wrote: Here's my toy spreadsheet if you'd like to play around with the numbers (and are able to decipher it): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_deFw ... RHUDA/view Note this version doesn't include today's tuning changes, but that's easy to fix.

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Re: Is feral being ignored?

Post by inseedious » Sat Feb 14, 2015 9:47 pm

Kojiyama wrote:Inseedious: Was anyone really tab-Raking with 7 targets anyway though? Pretty sure we were only Thrashing and focusing the boss in almost every scenario like this already.

The thing is that even though tab-Rake was technically the highest AoE DPS, it still has never been high enough to be worth either the time or the potential error involved with lots of targets around.

All this has done is lower the Swipe threshold from 'when we absolutely suck' to 'when we strongly suck' and still doesn't really change much of anything. The Thrash change is nice because we would be throwing Thrashes out anyway for the 2pc Energy and the reasonably solid DPET.

Like Sten broke down with the spreadsheet, Swipe could be buffed massively with no real change on single-target--especially with the buff to Shred in the same notes. I'm not totally sure what the goal of a 20% Swipe buff is, really. 20% of 0 is still 0--which is exactly how much it will ever get used by most high-end Feral. It really needed a much larger increase.
The fact that we don't really use rake with 6-7 target is well known and honestly is also a matter of different gameplays and situations. But, whatever is your ability to tab rake, the swipe buff will lower your "threshold" beyond that you will start swiping instead of raking. And, as long as shred and swipe are buffed more than rake and rip, mastery will slightly lose value. And I just asked if mastery will lose enough value to make multistrike a better stat for a balanced setup, since tab raking starts to be more a cleave than a real aoe tactic.

P.s. Swiping scenarios are the ones where you will use swipe over rake.
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Re: Is feral being ignored?

Post by Tinderhoof » Sat Feb 14, 2015 11:09 pm

Whay he was getting at was that there won't be a situation that swipe is going yo be used outside of trash. Nothing is going to change in how we do encounters.

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Re: Is feral being ignored?

Post by Leafkiller » Sun Feb 15, 2015 2:39 am

Tinderhoof wrote:Whay he was getting at was that there won't be a situation that swipe is going yo be used outside of trash. Nothing is going to change in how we do encounters.
Swipe is part of the current simc profile right now as a filler in place of shred when enemies are >=3 (at least for your profile Tinder with 1 raid boss and HecticAddCleave selected - something I experienced earlier today on Operator Thogar). Maybe the simc script is wrong, or maybe some optimizations are possible for ferals who are currently leaving Swipe entirely out of their rotation.

As you probably remember, I have always preferred to measure first and then report on how the rotation will change. Simulations often show surprising and nonintuitive results.

Consider the following: Currently at specific times (windows) in the simc script it is higher dps to let Rip fall off for a second or two in favor of FB (I spent time trying to "fix" this in the sim script and could not find any changes that improved dps). With Shred getting buffed 20%, it is conceivable that energy will be more valuable and shift the balance back towards favoring never letting Rip drop vs getting in that one or two extra FBs because the extra energy could be used for more shreds. We won't know for sure until we get a new version of simc with the latest patch changes and then spend some time re-optimizing the script/rotation.

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Re: Is feral being ignored?

Post by Stenhaldi » Sun Feb 15, 2015 5:21 am

Situations where you use swipe:
- Filler against 3+ targets when rake and thrash are already on every target.
- You're trying to strike a balance between AoE and single target damage, i.e. AoE isn't important enough to cast rake, but matters enough that you can take the small loss for casting swipe over shred (especially with fewer than 4 combo points).
- High priority burst AoE. You won't do well, but every bit matters.

It's not really an uncommon spell to cast, at least for me.

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Re: Is feral being ignored?

Post by inseedious » Sun Feb 15, 2015 7:31 am

Stenhaldi wrote:Situations where you use swipe:
- Filler against 3+ targets when rake and thrash are already on every target.
- You're trying to strike a balance between AoE and single target damage, i.e. AoE isn't important enough to cast rake, but matters enough that you can take the small loss for casting swipe over shred (especially with fewer than 4 combo points).
- High priority burst AoE. You won't do well, but every bit matters.

It's not really an uncommon spell to cast, at least for me.
Thanks for the reply, I'm trying to explain that this fix will somehow move part of our damage from bleed to straight physical one. The fact that swipe has been buffed by the same amount of trash, doesn't mean that the ratio bleed/physical will remain the same, cause swipe will more often (though not that often) be used. So our overall damage will be modified both in single target and aoe scenarios, slightly in favor of physical damage. An exception is the pure few durable targets cleave scenario, where bleed will be an even bigger % of our damage because of the trash buff and the fact that swipe will almost never be used. I think it's a simple thing, but people replying in the previous posts don't seem to understand it.
- You're trying to strike a balance between AoE and single target damage, i.e. AoE isn't important enough to cast rake, but matters enough that you can take the small loss for casting swipe over shred (especially with fewer than 4 combo points).
This is an interesting point. If the number of adds is high enough (let's say Operator encounter) to make Swipe statistically a "double combo point" filler, the single target loss may be, at least in a great part, compensated by the ability to throw more finishers on the single target. Maybe some maths can help us estimating a % single target loss taking account of that.
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Re: Is feral being ignored?

Post by Tagbear » Sun Feb 15, 2015 10:27 am

Tinderhoof wrote:Whay he was getting at was that there won't be a situation that swipe is going yo be used outside of trash. Nothing is going to change in how we do encounters.
Was just a cheeky bit of sarcasm! My baaaaad!

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Re: Is feral being ignored?

Post by Kojiyama » Sun Feb 15, 2015 11:55 am

Leafkiller: the case that SimC typically uses Swipe is fine, but not really what was being asked.

Inseedious was asking if it was going to change stat weights, but my point was that this change doesn't result in any rotational changes for Druids because the buff is not large enough to modify our APL in any particular way. It is just 'extra' damage.

In theory, if we were transitioning from tab-Rake to Swipe in some scenarios, it would lower the value of Mastery on those types of fights. However, since we very, very rarely ever actually tab-Raked in those situations (6-7 targets) anyway, it really has no major impact on stat weights.

Even in the sustained 4 target SimC profile (which replaces ALL Shreds with Swipes over the entire file) only shows Swipe as 7.2% of the overall damage. 20% of that is +1.4% damage, while the 5% buff to Rake results in +1.7% overall damage. Thrash does over twice as much damage as Swipe in this base scenario as well, with 7.2% vs. 16.6%.

If anything, the buff to Thrash combined with our 2pc bonus makes Mastery slightly more valuable as Thrash will have more rotational value than it did before in some situations. However, since Shred was buffed more than Rake it could end up balancing out. Need to toy around with an updated SimC build to find out, really.
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Re: Is feral being ignored?

Post by Leafkiller » Sun Feb 15, 2015 1:34 pm

Kojiyama wrote:Leafkiller: the case that SimC typically uses Swipe is fine, but not really what was being asked.
I know that. I was simply responding to the comments that Swipe is never used, when in truth it is situational as Stenhaldi indicated. I also said my preference has always been to measure changes (run sims with modified scripts) to answer those sort of questions. While many times back of the napkin math is correct in predicting how a given change in skill damage will impact (or not impact) the rotation, it is not always the case. I learned that lesson well in Cata when I was using Mew to help me write a better Ovale script. Several times I reported what people felt were unintuitive results and was attacked for my answers. All I was doing was reporting the results of the sims, but that did not stop some from attacking me rather than understanding why the sims were showing the results they were. In one case I asked Yawning to post on the subject since he was (deservedly) so well respected (which he did).

In response to inseedious and his question about stat values. First, lets review what stat values actually measure when you use them in Simc. They measure the relative values of the next "X"* stats you are going to add, not the optimum value of your current stat values. We saw an example of that recently when someone reported seeing mutistrike reported as their most valuable stat.

It is not easy to actually say what the optimum stat values are. Rather than rehash the discussion of what that is so, I found a previous reference where we were discussing this:
http://fluiddruid.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=770

Raffy did find a way to approximate an optimum stat value balance (Catus), which was particularly relevant when we could reforge, but I don't think he finished updating it for WoD.

=============

Here are some stat values for Tinderhoof (683 equipped 2 piece set bonus) using the 1/31 simc build (which is the current one available and does not take into account the 6.1 ptr changes):
Single target Patchwerk:
Crit 3.53
Mult 2.96
Vers 2.66
Mast 2.52
Haste 2.33

Single target hectic add cleave:
Mast 4.98
Crit 4.38
Mult 4.01
Vers 3.60
Haste 3.38

Here are the stat values for my crappy (casual) 659 gear:
Single target Patchwerk:
Mult 2.49
Crit 2.42
Mast 2.08
Vers 2.05
Haste 1.87

Single target hectic add cleave:
Mast 3.87
Mult 3.14
Crit 2.94
Vers 2.66
Haste 2.63

If I were to simply rely on these values as what stat is best for me, then I would be using Mastery > Mult > Crit... But that really only applies to the next piece of gear I get. I suppose I could swap out a crit gem or two and remeasure, but there is no guarantee that the results would be the same, or that the dps would change enough to move out of the dps error range. Tinder is still crit > mastery > mult.




*I don't recall how many stat points simc is using, but I am sure several of you know.

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Re: Is feral being ignored?

Post by Kojiyama » Sun Feb 15, 2015 4:10 pm

Right. I assume he was talking about the 'general case' though as to if it was overall diminishing Mastery's value relative to what it is now. We'll have to SimC it out when it's updated, but I wouldn't expect a major shift.

You do make a good point that your current gear certainly matters, though. I usually re-sim my stat weights whenever I get a major upgrade just to see where things fall.

I agree that the 'Swipe is never used' thing is slight hyperbole--although, I feel like what people really mean is probably, 'Swipe doesn't really matter much, even when it is used.' The fact that Swipe only ends up being single-digit percentages even on the experimental SimC AoE profiles would indicate that even when it is used as a replacement for Shred when there are multiple targets, it's not really very impactful.
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Re: Is feral being ignored?

Post by Leafkiller » Sun Feb 15, 2015 6:46 pm

Kojiyama wrote:Right. I assume he was talking about the 'general case' though as to if it was overall diminishing Mastery's value relative to what it is now. We'll have to SimC it out when it's updated, but I wouldn't expect a major shift.
I assumed the same thing and you are probably right that there won't be a major shift - but sometimes the sims will surprise you, particularly since the next round of optimization will shift the dps per ability some (it always does).

People also tend to place too much emphasis on the relative stat values and don't always understand the because the stat values buff each other, there is no such thing as "mastery is always better than multistrike" or any other combination you might think of. The only exception being where a given stat is so bad that no matter what it will always be behind others (mastery for WW Monks?).

I will leave you with a Fluid Druid blog post I did on this subject back in 2011 which is, for the most par, still valid: http://www.fluiddruid.net/2011/04/rsvs-fact-or-fiction/

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Re: Is feral being ignored?

Post by Dysheki » Sun Feb 15, 2015 11:13 pm

Kojiyama wrote:I agree that the 'Swipe is never used' thing is slight hyperbole--although, I feel like what people really mean is probably, 'Swipe doesn't really matter much, even when it is used.'
Well, sure, it does mean that a bit. But it is pretty close to never used for me. I looked at all boss kills and attempts this week (heroic clear, mythic beastlord/gruul) and swipe is used on Thogar. That's it besides one Beastlord wipe where I really needed that second CP and didn't want to gamble with shred. That's pretty close to never considering it is one of our two AoE spells and there are a lot of AoE situations in this instance.

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Re: Is feral being ignored?

Post by musashibo » Mon Feb 16, 2015 1:17 am

Kojiyama wrote:Inseedious: Was anyone really tab-Raking with 7 targets anyway though? Pretty sure we were only Thrashing and focusing the boss in almost every scenario like this already.

The thing is that even though tab-Rake was technically the highest AoE DPS, it still has never been high enough to be worth either the time or the potential error involved with lots of targets around.

All this has done is lower the Swipe threshold from 'when we absolutely suck' to 'when we strongly suck' and still doesn't really change much of anything. The Thrash change is nice because we would be throwing Thrashes out anyway for the 2pc Energy and the reasonably solid DPET.

Like Sten broke down with the spreadsheet, Swipe could be buffed massively with no real change on single-target--especially with the buff to Shred in the same notes. I'm not totally sure what the goal of a 20% Swipe buff is, really. 20% of 0 is still 0--which is exactly how much it will ever get used by most high-end Feral. It really needed a much larger increase.
If only somebody had thought of a lvl100 talent that would apply rake on thrashed targets, and we could choose between single-target and aoe depending on fight...

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Re: Is feral being ignored?

Post by Leafkiller » Mon Feb 16, 2015 3:28 am

Dysheki wrote:
Kojiyama wrote:I agree that the 'Swipe is never used' thing is slight hyperbole--although, I feel like what people really mean is probably, 'Swipe doesn't really matter much, even when it is used.'
Well, sure, it does mean that a bit. But it is pretty close to never used for me. I looked at all boss kills and attempts this week (heroic clear, mythic beastlord/gruul) and swipe is used on Thogar. That's it besides one Beastlord wipe where I really needed that second CP and didn't want to gamble with shred. That's pretty close to never considering it is one of our two AoE spells and there are a lot of AoE situations in this instance.
Just curious - do you think it is bad enough to warrant changing classes for the mythic content?

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Re: Is feral being ignored?

Post by smugler » Mon Feb 16, 2015 8:26 am

I'm curious why do I see these PTR 6.1 changes for feral in US only, if you go to PTR 6.1 EU wow page they are not there.

Also if they are on red text, does that mean they are subjective for change? I personally think so.

So it isn't final is what I'm trying to say.

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Re: Is feral being ignored?

Post by Tagbear » Mon Feb 16, 2015 8:42 am

Red means they're new since the last build/ set of changes.

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Re: Is feral being ignored?

Post by Cantor (Shredable) » Mon Feb 16, 2015 8:46 am

musashibo wrote:If only somebody had thought of a lvl100 talent that would apply rake on thrashed targets, and we could choose between single-target and aoe depending on fight...
Bloody Thrash was really only good for sustained AoE; it wouldn't have helped us at all on fights like Beastlord, Thogar and Kromog (where the adds die within 3-4 seconds, maximum of 10). A talent to help us for AoE/cleave would have been nicer than what we currently have – LI is only useful on 2-target cleave and gets surpassed by BT at any other number of targets – but Bloody Thrash wasn't it.

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Re: Is feral being ignored?

Post by musashibo » Mon Feb 16, 2015 11:00 am

Cantor (Shredable) wrote:
musashibo wrote:If only somebody had thought of a lvl100 talent that would apply rake on thrashed targets, and we could choose between single-target and aoe depending on fight...
Bloody Thrash was really only good for sustained AoE; it wouldn't have helped us at all on fights like Beastlord, Thogar and Kromog (where the adds die within 3-4 seconds, maximum of 10). A talent to help us for AoE/cleave would have been nicer than what we currently have – LI is only useful on 2-target cleave and gets surpassed by BT at any other number of targets – but Bloody Thrash wasn't it.
It's not a silver bullet, and I was happy to get DoC back anyway... but insofar as blizz actually thinks we're going to tab-target rakes and nobody really is, it certainly would have solved that aspect.

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Re: Is feral being ignored?

Post by Jinxs » Mon Feb 16, 2015 12:30 pm

Cantor (Shredable) wrote:
musashibo wrote:If only somebody had thought of a lvl100 talent that would apply rake on thrashed targets, and we could choose between single-target and aoe depending on fight...
Bloody Thrash was really only good for sustained AoE; it wouldn't have helped us at all on fights like Beastlord, Thogar and Kromog (where the adds die within 3-4 seconds, maximum of 10). A talent to help us for AoE/cleave would have been nicer than what we currently have – LI is only useful on 2-target cleave and gets surpassed by BT at any other number of targets – but Bloody Thrash wasn't it.
Maybe my thinking is a bit different but I don't think Feral needs AoE burst ability, since most raid composition almost always include classes that already have this. For example I was given a choice to go Moonkin on our last HC Kromog kill and I chose feral anyway, since our hunters, moonkin and warlock did the job too well. They were actually holding back their AoE since they killed a few people on previous attempts by releasing them to fast. My job was to save my FBs to quickly get the ones that they missed. And to be honest, adds that die within 3-4 seconds doesn't really matters in any raid since they are almost always cleaved down by other classes and Feral really not need to be one of them.

However on a fight like Tectus the situation is entirely different. The adds are important, they don't die in 3-4 seconds, and some of them even have priority. Also I'm not sure how is with adds on specific mythic fights in BRF but I bet sustained AoE will be definitely more important. And because of that, Bloody Thrash would be pretty good ability to handle such encounters and would also help us to maintain our ST easier which I think is the whole idea behind blizzard attempt in WoD to keep the play style fun and remove the boring parts from it. At the moment we don't really have any abilities to handle encounters such as this and even with the recent changes we will still suck at it. What we have now is tab switching rake which really is not fun and it doesn't bring any decent results for the effort that we put in.

I think musashibo question "we could choose between single-target and aoe depending on fight" is valid and important for ferals. My idea behind it is that Lunar Inspiration is crap in a rotation point of view and the class identification point of view (Cat that spams some arcane pillars of death from the sky.. wtf?!? Does the sillines of this world dosen't know any boundries?!). Why would I choose LI over BT on a twin progress fights? I've already have to handle all my bleeds, cds, rotation and keep my eyes on the boss mechanics that I have to learn to kill it. I don't need to add more complexity to this for only of fraction of dps gain. So I choose BT for all the progress fights and keep it more simple. However when the boss is on farm... sure I'll take LI just to keep the fun and trying something new and different and maybe I'll even learn how to bring the most out of LI. But by the time this happens it doesn't really matters since I could just aswell take CoS and we would still kill it.

That's why I think what we need is a CHOICE between a level 100 talent (Bloody Thrash) which will give us sustained AoE for fights like Tectus instead of LI, keep BT for ST fights and keep CoS for new ferals that are just adapting to the feral play style. I don't see better way to fix all the feral problems at the moment.

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Re: Is feral being ignored?

Post by Cantor (Shredable) » Mon Feb 16, 2015 1:42 pm

Tectus is a really unique fight though. Thinking back through all of the bosses in MoP, I can't recall one that has an add phase similar to that; maybe Galakras? Generally, AoE (4+ targets) is bursty, cleave (2-3 targets) is sustained – see Twins, Maidens, Kromog, Imperator, Operator, Furnace.

That being said, I agree that I'd like to see LI tweaked into a better AoE/cleave talent, and have been saying so for a while – a talent who's only niche is 100% uptime 2-target cleave doesn't appeal. Sweeping talent changes like that are unlikely to happen until the next expansion unless we're really suffering though, so for now, getting Swipe to a reasonable level is what needs to be focussed on. At the moment it's moved from the realms of "we absolutely, flat-out suck at AoE" to "we mostly suck and are maybe sometimes not bottom of the barrel if someone else screws their rotation up". However, we do get the top single-target DPS in the game to combat that, although that's a pretty weak niche and really sucks for Ferals that pug.

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Re: Is feral being ignored?

Post by Itharius » Mon Feb 16, 2015 2:55 pm

Tagbear wrote:Tell me more about these swiping scenarios.
Beastlord when the adds spawn, Operator when the adds spawn. Swipe in leiu of shred.

Yeah, I agree that bloody thrash should replace lunar inspiration. it just makes so much sense to choose between bloodtalons (single target) and bloody thrash (AoE) as a lvl 100 talent choice.

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Re: Is feral being ignored?

Post by Dysheki » Mon Feb 16, 2015 3:47 pm

Leafkiller wrote:
Dysheki wrote:
Kojiyama wrote:I agree that the 'Swipe is never used' thing is slight hyperbole--although, I feel like what people really mean is probably, 'Swipe doesn't really matter much, even when it is used.'
Well, sure, it does mean that a bit. But it is pretty close to never used for me. I looked at all boss kills and attempts this week (heroic clear, mythic beastlord/gruul) and swipe is used on Thogar. That's it besides one Beastlord wipe where I really needed that second CP and didn't want to gamble with shred. That's pretty close to never considering it is one of our two AoE spells and there are a lot of AoE situations in this instance.
Just curious - do you think it is bad enough to warrant changing classes for the mythic content?
Classes? No. Specs, probably. Stenhaldi did Kromog as balance and I believe (I do not know for sure) he is working on Blast Furnace as boomkin.

Now, by the time I get to Blast Furnace our raid should probably have enough gear and I won't need to, but it is 100% certain that my raid would be better off me playing boomkin right now for every fight. After the buffs at least we would be better in some of the fights and you could argue either way for others depending on what your raid needs. Do you need more single target or do you need more AoE?

But feral AoE is ridiculously terrible. I don't understand how anyone can deny it or even say it's okay because their single target is so great. It should be reasonably balanced for all classes. I completely hate this idea that everyone should have a niche of abilities when it comes to dps. IMO Everyone should have a niche for raid utility - but not dps.

The idea of bring the player not the class was a mantra for a while. That is obviously unattainable without a perfectly balanced game and I'm not saying they should strive for everything to be perfect. But it should all be within reason and the variance between top AoE and bottom AoE is not within reason for me.

Honestly, I could have done without the single target buffs in 6.1. I would prefer it. As long as they buffed AoE to be meaningful and gave us some tool to work with target swaps that need to die ASAP.

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Re: Is feral being ignored?

Post by smugler » Mon Feb 16, 2015 4:17 pm

Ok how about the EU and US question? Why isn't feral changes appear on the 6.1 EU patch notes? ;) :o :o

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