Is feral being ignored?

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Leafkiller
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Re: Is feral being ignored?

Post by Leafkiller » Mon Feb 16, 2015 4:19 pm

Dysheki wrote:Classes? No. Specs, probably. Stenhaldi did Kromog as balance and I believe (I do not know for sure) he is working on Blast Furnace as boomkin.

Now, by the time I get to Blast Furnace our raid should probably have enough gear and I won't need to, but it is 100% certain that my raid would be better off me playing boomkin right now for every fight. After the buffs at least we would be better in some of the fights and you could argue either way for others depending on what your raid needs. Do you need more single target or do you need more AoE?

But feral AoE is ridiculously terrible. I don't understand how anyone can deny it or even say it's okay because their single target is so great. It should be reasonably balanced for all classes. I completely hate this idea that everyone should have a niche of abilities when it comes to dps. IMO Everyone should have a niche for raid utility - but not dps.

The idea of bring the player not the class was a mantra for a while. That is obviously unattainable without a perfectly balanced game and I'm not saying they should strive for everything to be perfect. But it should all be within reason and the variance between top AoE and bottom AoE is not within reason for me.

Honestly, I could have done without the single target buffs in 6.1. I would prefer it. As long as they buffed AoE to be meaningful and gave us some tool to work with target swaps that need to die ASAP.
Thanks for the input. I just started raiding again with some of my long time gaming friends (going back to D2) with a cross server group and we are just starting heroics and the ridiculously low AoE dps is disheartening to say the least. Since we won't be doing mythics (at least until they open up older content for flex mode mythics) it is not nearly as bad an issue for us as it is for any mythic group, but there is always a desire to provide as much value as possible. But making the switch to Boomkin is non-trivial unless you already have sufficient muscle memory built up from playing it previously (which I don't). Hopefully more fixes will be incoming for our AoE.

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Re: Is feral being ignored?

Post by teddabear » Mon Feb 16, 2015 5:41 pm

Cantor (Shredable) wrote:
musashibo wrote:If only somebody had thought of a lvl100 talent that would apply rake on thrashed targets, and we could choose between single-target and aoe depending on fight...
Bloody Thrash was really only good for sustained AoE; it wouldn't have helped us at all on fights like Beastlord, Thogar and Kromog (where the adds die within 3-4 seconds, maximum of 10). A talent to help us for AoE/cleave would have been nicer than what we currently have – LI is only useful on 2-target cleave and gets surpassed by BT at any other number of targets – but Bloody Thrash wasn't it.
I suspect the reason people have been bringing up Bloody Thrash is because the simplicity is appealing compared to the tediousness of tab Rake. It is definitely the wrong approach though, instant damage instead of damage over time would be preferable.

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Rayen
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Re: Is feral being ignored?

Post by Rayen » Mon Feb 16, 2015 8:09 pm

smugler wrote:Ok how about the EU and US question? Why isn't feral changes appear on the 6.1 EU patch notes? ;) :o :o
Most likely just an oversight on Blizzard's part. They won't buff just one region.
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Re: Is feral being ignored?

Post by inseedious » Tue Feb 17, 2015 7:23 am

Jinxs wrote:I think musashibo question "we could choose between single-target and aoe depending on fight" is valid and important for ferals. My idea behind it is that Lunar Inspiration is crap in a rotation point of view and the class identification point of view (Cat that spams some arcane pillars of death from the sky.. wtf?!? Does the sillines of this world dosen't know any boundries?!). Why would I choose LI over BT on a twin progress fights? I've already have to handle all my bleeds, cds, rotation and keep my eyes on the boss mechanics that I have to learn to kill it. I don't need to add more complexity to this for only of fraction of dps gain. So I choose BT for all the progress fights and keep it more simple. However when the boss is on farm... sure I'll take LI just to keep the fun and trying something new and different and maybe I'll even learn how to bring the most out of LI. But by the time this happens it doesn't really matters since I could just aswell take CoS and we would still kill it.

That's why I think what we need is a CHOICE between a level 100 talent (Bloody Thrash) which will give us sustained AoE for fights like Tectus instead of LI, keep BT for ST fights and keep CoS for new ferals that are just adapting to the feral play style. I don't see better way to fix all the feral problems at the moment.
A few days ago I had an idea. Currently, RPG wise the choice between lvl 100 talents is not interesting and not varied. Even most 2/3 target fights are better if played with Bloodtalons, according to recent experience in Foundry. The idea is to make lvl 100 talents like this:
- Lunar Inspiration: Dream of Cenarius --> equivalent to Bloodtalons (switching it back at MoP version, and changing the current Dream of Cenarius in something else)
- Solar Inspiration: Sunfire --> this would make cleave rotation much smoother, and almost fix our crappy AoE
- Twilight Inspiration: Claws of Shirvallah --> unchanged, as it is currently developed to be a PvP/beginner talent. I like the sinergy between the twilight and this "uncomplete shapeshift".
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Amitty
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Re: Is feral being ignored?

Post by Amitty » Tue Feb 17, 2015 9:05 am

I'd like to see the LI talent gone and replaced with Starfall. We don't need help with 2-3 targets cleave and this will resolve our AoE problems. If they have no problem with us using Moonfire I see no problem with us getting Starfall instead. 50 energy ability.

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Re: Is feral being ignored?

Post by inseedious » Tue Feb 17, 2015 10:52 am

Amitty wrote:I'd like to see the LI talent gone and replaced with Starfall. We don't need help with 2-3 targets cleave and this will resolve our AoE problems. If they have no problem with us using Moonfire I see no problem with us getting Starfall instead. 50 energy ability.
I would like Starfall aswell. But, if a new spell has to be developed (since Starfall would need to be reworked, for example tuning energy cost and deleting charges), then I would prefer Bloody Trash, an improved Trash that will apply Rake on its targets. That would also benefit from Mastery and 2p, so stacking better with ilvl improvements (instead of needing periodic buffs, like current Shred...). I repeat, I still like Starfall idea, still better than nothing, but I'm pretty sure a good % of balance druids chose that spec because of Starfall utility, and this spell itself is a particular characteristic of balance. That would make balance spec unattractive imho. It's like giving Berserk to Balance druid as an offensive CD, making them actually use feral's typical abilities quite often.
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Re: Is feral being ignored?

Post by Dysheki » Tue Feb 17, 2015 12:00 pm

I like an idea of a finisher that would deal the remaining damage of thrash on all nearby targets. Deals less per combo point used, full potential at 5. 50 energy cost.

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Re: Is feral being ignored?

Post by Ancihcaor » Tue Feb 17, 2015 6:49 pm

Dysheki wrote:I like an idea of a finisher that would deal the remaining damage of thrash on all nearby targets. Deals less per combo point used, full potential at 5. 50 energy cost.
why not add this effect to SR?

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Re: Is feral being ignored?

Post by Kojiyama » Tue Feb 17, 2015 6:58 pm

I actually really like the idea of making Savage Roar an AoE finisher.
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Re: Is feral being ignored?

Post by inseedious » Tue Feb 17, 2015 7:06 pm

Dysheki wrote:I like an idea of a finisher that would deal the remaining damage of thrash on all nearby targets. Deals less per combo point used, full potential at 5. 50 energy cost.
I don't think it would be effective at all. This finisher transforms 50 energy in no additional damage. And you need 100 energy to instantly deal Thrash damage all at once, so it would maybe still require a lot of time compared to other classes. It would make more sense if this finisher let you apply a second stack of Thrash, but at this point something like a Bloody Thrash finisher would make even more sense.
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Re: Is feral being ignored?

Post by teddabear » Tue Feb 17, 2015 9:49 pm

inseedious wrote:
Dysheki wrote:I like an idea of a finisher that would deal the remaining damage of thrash on all nearby targets. Deals less per combo point used, full potential at 5. 50 energy cost.
I don't think it would be effective at all. This finisher transforms 50 energy in no additional damage. And you need 100 energy to instantly deal Thrash damage all at once, so it would maybe still require a lot of time compared to other classes. It would make more sense if this finisher let you apply a second stack of Thrash, but at this point something like a Bloody Thrash finisher would make even more sense.
My guess is they are trying to come up with a solution to the problem of Feral bleeds last longer that the adds live.

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Re: Is feral being ignored?

Post by Ancihcaor » Wed Feb 18, 2015 1:48 am

instead of "Deals less per combo point used, full potential at 5. 50 energy cost."

why not 25 Energy, just same as current SR? it would change almost nothing for single target, but would make SR an interesting versatile self/buff burst aoe finisher.

Savage Roar
25 Energy
Finishing move that increases physical damage done by 40% while in Cat Form and causes physical damage all targets affected by your Thrash. Lasts longer and damage increases per combo point:

1 point : 18 seconds + 20% of Thrash damage
2 points: 24 seconds + 40% of Thrash damage
3 points: 30 seconds + 60% of Thrash damage
4 points: 36 seconds + 80% of Thrash damage
5 points: 42 seconds + 100% of Thrash damage

:o new aoe finisher! but instead of an additional spell, it come pre-prunned (WoD design friendly lol) bundled into an already existing one that some people find boring (ie simple/straightforward) in its current form. Obviously I am not pretending these numbers are balanced at all. It could crit and if you go with the basic idea that the damage dealt is a % of the remaining Thrash it would scale with mastery but without actually being a bleed itself. But if that's too complicated, make it scale of AP like: [(300% of Attack power) * combo point / 5] damage. The energy cost and damage need to be tweaked, but you get the idea.
I personally would love the Thrash based damage idea, potential crazy fun gameplay possibilities with BT+TF> OoC+Thrash > SR combo... :) and the more It think of it, since BT>Thrash>SR would be too much fun, why not add an aoe SR synergy effect to LI talent? like: Casting SR also spreads MF to all targets affected by your Thrash or causes your next MF to hit all targets affected by your Thrash (I would call that buff Bloodmoon obviously ;) ), tier100 talents would both have a unique aoe style, LI more sustained and BT more bursty. Anyways sorry for random wall of text, that's all I got for now for brainstorming ramblings for tonight :geek: zZz

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Re: Is feral being ignored?

Post by Acvodad » Wed Feb 18, 2015 3:32 am

How about reduce Swipe energy cost to 20. Swipe also deals remaining damage of Thrash instantly.
It's a two button aoe, maybe a bit too easy for a cat?

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Re: Is feral being ignored?

Post by inseedious » Wed Feb 18, 2015 6:43 am

Acvodad wrote:How about reduce Swipe energy cost to 20. Swipe also deals remaining damage of Thrash instantly.
It's a two button aoe, maybe a bit too easy for a cat?
Lowering Swipe cost to 20 would be enough to fix our AoE, considering the buffs it will get in 6.1, with no need to do Thrash damage instantly. A Swipe buff is the simplest and most effective buff to our AoE, cause, beside of our bad damage, we need to be able to do quick damage to be competitive with, for example, rogues or balances. Aswell, compared to our 1-2-3 target rotations, just having to spam Swipe+Thrash on AoE scenarios seems pretty boring, especially if you're gonna cap your CPs without any useful finisher to throw. By the way, I think this is the direction Blizzard is following, but they're afraid that this kind of buff to Swipe can make it better than Shred in too many scenarios thanks to his ability to generate fast CPs even in 2-3 targets situations. Even though Stenhaldi proved mathematicly that Swipe can be very strongly buffed without becoming better than Shred at least in single target. And ofc, they can't lower Shred cost to 20-25 energy (even mantaining the same DPE), cause currently Shred energy cost is perfectly fitting the challenging playstyle of PvE feral, who has to build 4 CPs before Predatory Swiftness expires.
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Re: Is feral being ignored?

Post by Acvodad » Wed Feb 18, 2015 10:37 am

The heck, while we're at it. Give Urso's Vortex a glyph that removes slow and pullback. Instead does 150% weapon damage every second for the duration and cost 90 energy. The possibilities are endless.

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Re: Is feral being ignored?

Post by Dysheki » Wed Feb 18, 2015 10:41 am

Can't do that with Ursols vortex because it's in a non-dps tier.

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Re: Is feral being ignored?

Post by inseedious » Wed Feb 18, 2015 12:19 pm

Acvodad wrote:The heck, while we're at it. Give Urso's Vortex a glyph that removes slow and pullback. Instead does 150% weapon damage every second for the duration and cost 90 energy. The possibilities are endless.
Possibilities are endless but should not completely change the gameplay of a class/spec to fix just a part of the encounters that is AoE. Indeed that talent tier is not a dps one as Dysheki said. Things aren't simple as they seem, when we talk about balancing and changing mechanics.
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Re: Is feral being ignored?

Post by teddabear » Wed Feb 18, 2015 1:21 pm

I'm not aware of any limitations that would prevent fixing Feral AoE just by adjusting Swipe if Blizzard were so inclined. The only issue I can think is whether to keep the combo points or not. My opinion is the combo points should be dropped so there is more room to buff Swipe.

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Re: Is feral being ignored?

Post by Tinderhoof » Wed Feb 18, 2015 1:51 pm

teddabear wrote:I'm not aware of any limitations that would prevent fixing Feral AoE just by adjusting Swipe if Blizzard were so inclined. The only issue I can think is whether to keep the combo points or not. My opinion is the combo points should be dropped so there is more room to buff Swipe.
Just because you are not aware of limitations doesn't mean they do not exist. Consider though that Blizzard may not feel our AoE is broken. With the recent round of buffs it seemed pretty clear to me that the same niche we have filled since WotLK is one they want us to be in for the moment.

With raid encounters the way they are right now though I don't really feel our niche is as vauled as much as they think it should be. I do think that the older design that is Feral has not grown as well as others with the direction that they continue to take encounter design. I believe we will be in for a hard design look in the coming expansion. What I do know is that we arn't going to see some new mechanic any time soon. They just don't create new mechanics unless a class is really not working out (ie see monks right after MoP release). We arn't in that postion.

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Re: Is feral being ignored?

Post by Itharius » Wed Feb 18, 2015 3:55 pm

Everyone keeps asking for a re-design, but I'd be fine with being a single target niche class so long as we have top tier single target damage. That's why I'm way more excited than a lot of you all seem to be about the upcoming buffs in 6.1, because we'll dominate the charts on fights like Gruul, and our AoE will be serviceable enough that we won't be liabilities on AoE heavy fights.

Shadow priests need an AoE buff in the form of an improved lvl 100 talent because they have no option to roll an off spec. We always have the option of off speccing boomkin.

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Re: Is feral being ignored?

Post by Tumpor » Thu Feb 19, 2015 3:00 am

Shadow priests need an AoE buff in the form of an improved lvl 100 talent because they have no option to roll an off spec. We always have the option of off speccing boomkin.
Thats not how specs should work. Each spec should be viable on its own and shouldn't be a liability in any fight, even in the worst case scenario. You should prefer some specs over others for different scenarios but you should not exclude them. That would just be bad design imho.

I am quite excited about the upcoming buffs to ferals and I think they can give us the feeling to at least not be a burden in aoe heavy fights.

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Re: Is feral being ignored?

Post by Sibylle » Thu Feb 19, 2015 4:21 am

Yeah, it's not like we can quickly change to Balance without problems, we'd need cloak, trinkets, rings, and neck at a comparative ilevel as our main spec gear and that's a problem in a new-ish raid like BRF where main spec casters will obviously have priority. I also agree that each spec should be viable on its own, although it *is* easier for some (warriors, hunters, rogues, locks, mages) to switch than others.
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Re: Is feral being ignored?

Post by teddabear » Thu Feb 19, 2015 11:58 am

Tinderhoof wrote:
teddabear wrote:I'm not aware of any limitations that would prevent fixing Feral AoE just by adjusting Swipe if Blizzard were so inclined. The only issue I can think is whether to keep the combo points or not. My opinion is the combo points should be dropped so there is more room to buff Swipe.
Just because you are not aware of limitations doesn't mean they do not exist. Consider though that Blizzard may not feel our AoE is broken. With the recent round of buffs it seemed pretty clear to me that the same niche we have filled since WotLK is one they want us to be in for the moment.

With raid encounters the way they are right now though I don't really feel our niche is as vauled as much as they think it should be. I do think that the older design that is Feral has not grown as well as others with the direction that they continue to take encounter design. I believe we will be in for a hard design look in the coming expansion. What I do know is that we arn't going to see some new mechanic any time soon. They just don't create new mechanics unless a class is really not working out (ie see monks right after MoP release). We arn't in that postion.
True there could definitely be limitations I am not aware of. I don't think AoE has been a niche in quite a while now. Most people seem to feel it is at least as important as single target in the current tier. In no particular order I consider the important categories to be:

Single target DPS
Single target burst
Multi-target DPS
Multi-target burst
AoE DPS
AoE burst
Raid CD

Imo multi-target is something between 2 and 4 targets. Feral will be excellent at the first 2 after it is buffed.

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