Moonfire(feral) 20% dmg increase

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Re: Moonfire(feral) 20% dmg increase

Post by aggixx » Thu Mar 19, 2015 3:12 pm

BT if you're going boat, LI if you're not. Not a lot of room to dispute this.
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Re: Moonfire(feral) 20% dmg increase

Post by Madfrog » Thu Mar 19, 2015 3:17 pm

you should always be going on the boat as feral.

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Re: Moonfire(feral) 20% dmg increase

Post by Latiika » Thu Mar 19, 2015 4:21 pm

save CDs for boat or burst from start?

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Re: Moonfire(feral) 20% dmg increase

Post by Kojiyama » Thu Mar 19, 2015 5:37 pm

Madfrog wrote:you should always be going on the boat as feral.
Don't know about this. Depends on what your group is trying to do and where your DPS breakpoints are. If you are trying to push before the 3rd boat phase in Heroic, for instance, it is totally reasonable to leave Ferals on the ground if it helps you meet your DPS target and you have a solid group to send to the boat.

Depends on your group/class comp as to what fits best. The good part is that Ferals are quite strong at both roles, so it's easy to just go with whatever your raid needs.
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Re: Moonfire(feral) 20% dmg increase

Post by Synesis » Thu Mar 19, 2015 5:48 pm

I find LI on the boat as alright - like overall I like using LI for maidens even on the boat but its more benificial if ur staying in the platform. Fairly sure BT is better for boats due to burst but honestly the difference felt neglible either way.

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Re: Moonfire(feral) 20% dmg increase

Post by Dysheki » Thu Mar 19, 2015 6:45 pm

Depends on your raid. We will never have great parses because between the second and third boats we will have to stop/slow dps to prevent a push. Our strat on Mythic is to get them all close to 20%, go up on the third boat, rotate CDs on the Marak tank (monk) to keep raid damage extremely low, and burn Marak down quickly. Then the dps on the main area burns Sorka down once Marak is dead. This way you have to deal with less mechanics at the same time. We delay getting off the boat to maximize the raid's time on Sorka before we have to jump off and Gar'an comes back. Typically at that point only Gar'an is left and it's almost impossible to wipe at that point.

So because of this strat since our boss damage doesn't matter I save all CDs for each boat phase just to lower the chance of being on the boat and wiping. Boring fight with our strat :(

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Re: Moonfire(feral) 20% dmg increase

Post by Nayni » Thu Mar 19, 2015 6:55 pm

Latiika wrote:Is it worth speccing into LI if your assigned to the boat?
No.
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Re: Moonfire(feral) 20% dmg increase

Post by Kojiyama » Thu Mar 19, 2015 8:26 pm

Nayni wrote:
Latiika wrote:Is it worth speccing into LI if your assigned to the boat?
No.
You are certainly correct here, but just to elaborate on this since the 'rule' applies to a lot of fights/assignments.

Technically speaking, one would probably do somewhat more or similar overall DPS on the fight with LI regardless of assignment--at least on Heroic. There is enough three-target cleave in the fight that overall the periods on the boat probably won't pull down your averages.

That said, the reason it is bad is because if you are chosen for the boat it is to optimize single-target objective DPS. If you take LI, you are going to be slowing down your boat phase DPS and that is probably not the reason you are being selected to go up there, even if your overall meter DPS may still be be slightly higher.

Optimize for your assignment, not for meters. Padding meters doesn't (usually) help kill bosses. :)
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Re: Moonfire(feral) 20% dmg increase

Post by artsdruid » Thu Mar 19, 2015 10:00 pm

i enjoy it if going on boat, but i only go to boat that doesnt need tank, otherwise im on platform. helps with energy a little i feel with random moonfire on second adds

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Re: Moonfire(feral) 20% dmg increase

Post by Madfrog » Fri Mar 20, 2015 11:36 am

Kojiyama wrote:
Madfrog wrote:you should always be going on the boat as feral.
Don't know about this. Depends on what your group is trying to do and where your DPS breakpoints are. If you are trying to push before the 3rd boat phase in Heroic, for instance, it is totally reasonable to leave Ferals on the ground if it helps you meet your DPS target and you have a solid group to send to the boat.

Depends on your group/class comp as to what fits best. The good part is that Ferals are quite strong at both roles, so it's easy to just go with whatever your raid needs.

I suppose I can see that for heroic. I was talking specifically about mythic

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Re: Moonfire(feral) 20% dmg increase

Post by Vami » Sat Mar 21, 2015 7:59 am

Kojiyama wrote:
Nayni wrote:
Latiika wrote:Is it worth speccing into LI if your assigned to the boat?
No.
You are certainly correct here, but just to elaborate on this since the 'rule' applies to a lot of fights/assignments.

Technically speaking, one would probably do somewhat more or similar overall DPS on the fight with LI regardless of assignment--at least on Heroic. There is enough three-target cleave in the fight that overall the periods on the boat probably won't pull down your averages.

That said, the reason it is bad is because if you are chosen for the boat it is to optimize single-target objective DPS. If you take LI, you are going to be slowing down your boat phase DPS and that is probably not the reason you are being selected to go up there, even if your overall meter DPS may still be be slightly higher.

Optimize for your assignment, not for meters. Padding meters doesn't (usually) help kill bosses. :)
If you have enough dps on the boat anyway, I personally feel like LI is nicer in that fight. I'm usually not the one going to the boats in our raids but when I've been there I've done more than enough dps with LI too. It's not that far behind on single target now anyway. But I guess I'd go for BT if the boat dps check was tight at all. There's not really much reason to hurry the boat down if you just get it down before the explosion happens.

Madfrog wrote:
Kojiyama wrote:
Madfrog wrote:you should always be going on the boat as feral.
Don't know about this. Depends on what your group is trying to do and where your DPS breakpoints are. If you are trying to push before the 3rd boat phase in Heroic, for instance, it is totally reasonable to leave Ferals on the ground if it helps you meet your DPS target and you have a solid group to send to the boat.

Depends on your group/class comp as to what fits best. The good part is that Ferals are quite strong at both roles, so it's easy to just go with whatever your raid needs.

I suppose I can see that for heroic. I was talking specifically about mythic
Ferals are really good at 3- and 2-target cleave and have fun time on the platform also in mythic. I can't think of a reason why you should always be on the boat as feral? There isn't really anything that specific in the you'd actually need a feral for? As I said, I personally have mostly spent time on the platform and the boat group has done well without a feral, I dunno.

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Re: Moonfire(feral) 20% dmg increase

Post by Madfrog » Tue Mar 24, 2015 1:28 pm

We can do great cleave but I've never seen a reason to not have a feral on the boat to minimize time spent with how high our single target burst is and utility for the add boat.. Generally better than having a DK, rogue, warrior or any other melee save for maybe enhance?

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Re: Moonfire(feral) 20% dmg increase

Post by msrobinson » Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:04 pm

Kojiyama wrote:
Nayni wrote:
Latiika wrote:Is it worth speccing into LI if your assigned to the boat?
No.
That said, the reason it is bad is because if you are chosen for the boat it is to optimize single-target objective DPS. If you take LI, you are going to be slowing down your boat phase DPS and that is probably not the reason you are being selected to go up there, even if your overall meter DPS may still be be slightly higher.
Although Nayni doesn't elaborate, this isn't the reason that he's correct.

Your overall damage will still be lower (rather than higher as you say) if you go LI and go on the boats.

LI gives a DPS increase on multi target fights. In addition to having shitty uptime on the 3 main bosses, 2 of the 3 boats is horrible for LI, the other is still pretty bad.

Single target boat (with corrupted blood) is obviously terrible because you are using LI on ST, which is a DPS loss over BT.
2 target boat (with interrupts) is pretty bad because the medic will have earthen shield on him the entire time (nearly), as you are only interrupting to stop it going on the admiral. LI will do little damage if you double dot (in addition to wasting your time dpsing an unimportant target).
AOE boat (using mass entanglement/ursols vortex strategy) is terrible, because you are unable to dot more than the important target, out of fear of breaking the crowd control
AOE boat (without using CC) is still bad because you essentially double your global use to maintain moonfire/rake, which leaves little energy/globals to use thrash and other finishers. This is the type of situation in which LI would be the best, and yet it is still a DPS loss because of the sheer amount of adds.

LI on boats is a DPS loss \. LI on dock is a DPS increase.

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Re: Moonfire(feral) 20% dmg increase

Post by ShmooDude » Tue Mar 24, 2015 4:02 pm

Here's a wrinkle to add to the conversation.

When everyone says BT is better for the boat because its better single target, while this is likely true, by how much?

BT is 4% or so better single target over the course of a long patchwerk fight. But the boat is not a long patchwerk fight, its a ~85 second patchwerk fight without berserk or incarnation (unless you're saving them) in the middle of an already active fight.

I've done several sims, which help to better show the relative power of BT vs LI during this specific portion of the fight assuming you're not saving Incarnation, in which case obviously BT is gonna be way better.

Normal Sim, 450 seconds +-20% w/ Incarnation, Berserk, and 2 potions:
BT - 42932 (+4.0%)
LI - 41285

450 seconds +-20%, no Incarnation, Berserk, or Potions
BT - 34523 (+1.6%)
LI - 33965

85 seconds +-3%, no Incarnation, Berserk, or Potions, standard opener of rake from prowl (w/ enhanced rake perk + 2 charges BT):
BT - 38921 (+1.4%)
LI - 38369

85 seconds +-3%, no Incarnation, Berserk, or Potions, opener changed to shred from prowl (to give Savage Roar duration so we're not starting from 0, but w/o the massive benefit of the 100% extra rake damage; has 2 BT charges so the rake after the initial shred will have BT)
BT - 38068 (+0.9%)
LI - 37714

None of these is a "perfect" sim because
A) You won't have the guaranteed procs like you would "on pull"
B) You can't prowl before going on the boat (I have one using rake opener, one using shred opener)
C) You may or may not have BT up (all sims have pre-cast healing touch)
D) You may or may not have some amount of combo points

I haven't really simmed the 3rd boat, but the first two are basically patchwerk and the 3rd can be if you CC adds.

All that said, the last sim is probably the most accurate to the situation, and also has the least difference between the two specs. Add in the fact that frankly the LI rotation is probably significantly easier to execute than the BT rotation for the dock portion of that fight (juggling 3 multipliers perfectly with BT is imo impossible so the simmed dps is artificially high) and I think LI is perfectly viable for the boat portion of the phase, while maintaining that higher DPS for the dock. BT is simply not enough of a gain in this situation to be worth it IMO.

BT simply gains huge huge swaths of its damage from Incarnation/Berserk and the Enhanced Rake perk. None of which are present on the boat unless you specifically save them for it (in which case you're butchering your dock dps anyhow, which is an option if that's what is needed). Out side of that, their damage is virtually identical.

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Re: Moonfire(feral) 20% dmg increase

Post by Kojiyama » Tue Mar 24, 2015 4:13 pm

Edit: Looks like ShmooDude and I posted roughly the same thing at the same time here... my reply is directed at msrobinson. :)

Not so sure about that after the LI buff. I'm fairly certain the advantage of running LI in the 3-target portions probably outweighs the loss of LI in single-target portions of the fight--at least based on the typical boat/land phase timings.

At least for me, 3-target cleave sims around 2.4k DPS higher with LI compared to BT, whereas BT only has a 1.2k DPS advantage in single-target scenarios. LI also maintains a 2.7k advantage in two-target cleave for me.

Given the time allocations of ground vs. boat, I'm fairly certain that LI would come out ahead overall even if you were assigned to the boat. Presuming 'average' Heroic parses, each boat phase is roughly 1:30 and if you only use a two-phase strat in Heroic you will be on the boat 3 out of the 9-10 minute duration of the fight.

Out of the remaining 10 minutes, say, you would likely spend 1 minute with one of the bosses dead and 20-30 seconds with another dead, meaning an additional ~30 seconds of single-target at the end, and ~30 seconds of two-target cleave at the end. That breaks down to:
3:30 - Single target @ -1.2k = -252k
0:30 - Two target @ +2.7k = +81k
6:00 - Three target @ +2.4k = +864k
Net = +693k (+1.1k DPS)

Even with three boat trips rather than two, you still should come out ahead overall without padding on the Battle Medic.

(That said, this is generally moot because it is still kinda bad due to the fact that you aren't optimizing your assignment DPS.)

On Mythic, I feel like this is all fairly irrelevant due to a number of strategies like Dysheki mentioned that slow-roll the DPS for most of the fight anyway. May as well make sure you take BT just in case you need the burst at any specific point.
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Re: Moonfire(feral) 20% dmg increase

Post by msrobinson » Tue Mar 24, 2015 6:08 pm

Shmoo, why did you sim without berserk? Ferals who go up on the boats save their 3 min cooldowns for that.

Incarnation favors bloodtalons due to the 30% increased damage on 2 abilities affecting the 4 piece in substantial way.

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Re: Moonfire(feral) 20% dmg increase

Post by ShmooDude » Tue Mar 24, 2015 7:58 pm

msrobinson wrote:Shmoo, why did you sim without berserk? Ferals who go up on the boats save their 3 min cooldowns for that.

Incarnation favors bloodtalons due to the 30% increased damage on 2 abilities affecting the 4 piece in substantial way.
I specifically said unless you're saving them.

EDIT: I'm only 3/10 atm so I haven't really looked at strats yet, looks like most do in which case ya BT all the way (I think I said that somewhere in the vote). For anything other than mythic though LI wins. Pretty sure I noted that in my post though.

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Re: Moonfire(feral) 20% dmg increase

Post by ShmooDude » Tue Mar 24, 2015 10:10 pm

So for the flip side since its apparently fairly standard practice to save cds for it.

85 sec +-3%, no potion but berserk and incarnation:

T17H template:
58390 BT (+2.4%)
57019 LI

My gear (no on use trinket so way lower despite my 691 ilvl):
52191 BT (+3.5%)
50441 LI

Even at the biggest difference of mine +3.5% of 85 seconds is 88 seconds, and that's only if you're the only one on the boat (you're one of 4 dpsers and a tank), realistically it'll make about a 1 second difference between the specs. That said, if there's even a chance that that second could be the difference between making the check and not, I'd go with BT. If you're well below it, it should be safe to go LI. So depends where your boat group's dps is.

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Re: Moonfire(feral) 20% dmg increase

Post by Kojiyama » Wed Mar 25, 2015 11:19 am

The other thing here is that, conversely, BT loses a lot more ground against LI on the platform if you hold back cooldowns for the boat.

Simming 3-target cleave for the different options in my gear, I get:

Kojiyama_Active_LI : 64010 dps
Kojiyama_Active_BT : 61571 dps
Kojiyama_Active_LI_NoCooldowns : 54810 dps
Kojiyama_Active_BT_NoCooldowns : 51464 dps

With cooldowns on the cleave portion, LI wins by 2,439 DPS. However, without cooldowns it actually wins by 3,346 DPS. BT gains a lot of its cleave damage from taking advantage of Improved Rake across all three targets, so taking that away makes it fall further relative to LI that has Moonfire to fall back on.

Considering that BT only has around a 1.2-1.4k DPS advantage in the single-target portion with cooldowns used for both specs, it actually seems rather likely that LI is going to do quite a lot of additional damage over the entire length of the fight with minimal loss on the boat.

Essentially, unless you are super-tight on the boat timer, it seems difficult to justify using BT on this fight unless your strat gains from it very specifically.
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Re: Moonfire(feral) 20% dmg increase

Post by Leafkiller » Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:56 am

I recently watched the Midwinter world first kill of Maidens and noted that they had one of the three maidens tanked kitty corner from the other two where the melee were positioned - only allowing for 2 target cleave on the platform.

I have not watched any other mythic kills or read any of the mythic strategies for this fight, but if this is standard practice for mythic then it would make sense to redo the sims as LI will certainly be lower than what is begin suggested here (for mythic).

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Re: Moonfire(feral) 20% dmg increase

Post by Stenhaldi » Thu Mar 26, 2015 2:49 am

If you're keeping Sorka away from the others (as we did), you're probably not planning to skip the third boat, in which case platform DPS doesn't matter at all (before the last phase): even during our progression (at level 687) we were stopping DPS halfway through the third boat.

With the higher item levels, though, I'd guess most guilds now are stacking the maidens and skipping the third boat. There are major advantages and disadvantages to both options, but who wants to stop DPS for a minute?

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Re: Moonfire(feral) 20% dmg increase

Post by Amitty » Thu Mar 26, 2015 8:38 am

The tactic where you take care of Marak and Sorka while Garan is on the 3rd ship seems very boring tbh. Effective, but boring. I'd really like to stay down for the entire fight and just DPS with Moonfire, but it seems like I'll be doing ships forever. ;/

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Re: Moonfire(feral) 20% dmg increase

Post by Kojiyama » Thu Mar 26, 2015 3:29 pm

Leafkiller wrote:I recently watched the Midwinter world first kill of Maidens and noted that they had one of the three maidens tanked kitty corner from the other two where the melee were positioned - only allowing for 2 target cleave on the platform.

I have not watched any other mythic kills or read any of the mythic strategies for this fight, but if this is standard practice for mythic then it would make sense to redo the sims as LI will certainly be lower than what is begin suggested here (for mythic).
Even if this was the case, I'm not sure it would actually matter. When I looked at the sims the other day, LI actually had a larger advantage in 2 target cleave situations over BT than in 3 target cleave situations.

Two Target:
Kojiyama_Active_LI : 55140 dps (+2,957 dps)
Kojiyama_Active_BT : 52183 dps
Kojiyama_Active_LI_NoCooldowns : 47557 dps (+4,165 dps)
Kojiyama_Active_BT_NoCooldowns : 43392 dps

Three Target:
Kojiyama_Active_LI : 66421 dps (+2,766 dps)
Kojiyama_Active_BT : 63655 dps
Kojiyama_Active_LI_NoCooldowns : 57646 dps (+3,699 dps)
Kojiyama_Active_BT_NoCooldowns : 53947 dps

This is perhaps a little unintuitive, but the root cause is likely that the loss of being able to spread BT/Incarnation buffed Rakes and Rips onto more targets softens the advantage against LI significantly. Without cooldowns, Rake and Moonfire have very similar DPET.

This is data worth considering for any questionable cleave-style fight.

The Mythic tactic being mentioned does seem pretty effective, though, which basically means you may as well stay BT because ground DPS is pretty much unimportant.
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Re: Moonfire(feral) 20% dmg increase

Post by Kojiyama » Thu Mar 26, 2015 3:54 pm

It is also worth noting that, surprisingly, I noticed today that SotF was simming about 1.1k (1.5%) above Incarnation for 3 target cleave when using LI. It still sims 1.1k (2%) worse on 2-target cleave however and still is worse when using BT. Could depend on gear configuration potentially.

In theory, it seems that SotF could pull ahead if you did end up staying on the platform with LI spec though, since the time with 3-target cleave is likely to still be higher than 2-target time.

This was a bit of an unexpected observation for me. I may try it out on our Heroic kill since I have been staying on the platform recently.
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Re: Moonfire(feral) 20% dmg increase

Post by ShmooDude » Thu Mar 26, 2015 7:48 pm

Kojiyama wrote:It is also worth noting that, surprisingly, I noticed today that SotF was simming about 1.1k (1.5%) above Incarnation for 3 target cleave when using LI. It still sims 1.1k (2%) worse on 2-target cleave however and still is worse when using BT. Could depend on gear configuration potentially.

In theory, it seems that SotF could pull ahead if you did end up staying on the platform with LI spec though, since the time with 3-target cleave is likely to still be higher than 2-target time.

This was a bit of an unexpected observation for me. I may try it out on our Heroic kill since I have been staying on the platform recently.
That might simply be because its using Swipe instead of Shred, which isn't proccing Savage Roar and probably producing less average combo points under Incarnation. Last time I simmed it, you still want to shred at 3 targets while under Incarnation. Try modifying the 3 target script to use shred only when in Incarnation and see what the results are.

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