Feral Nerf =(

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Bosskiller
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Feral Nerf =(

Post by Bosskiller » Wed Mar 11, 2015 10:47 pm

I guess Blizz must not want anyone to take a feral along on raids.

March 11:
[Hotfix in testing] Shred now deals 20% more damage while stealthed (down from 35%).

Millerr
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Re: Feral Nerf =(

Post by Millerr » Wed Mar 11, 2015 11:37 pm

It's only a 15% nerf to shred's bonus damage during incarnation not anything too major. It's probably either a pvp nerf or possibly a nerf to incarnation to give us incentive to take other talents in that tier.

just off of my completely inaccurate napkin math it shouldn't be more than ~110k maximum total damage lost per incarnation at 690+ ilvl and essentially every cd and trinket up. Without trinkets and lust its looking like maybe 80-90k damage lost per incarnation at 690ilvl.
(This was just me looking at my logs between maiden wipes)

Nobody likes nerfs, but this looks way worse than it really is. :P

edit: this was just looking at gruul which is really the only fight you'll notice it that much. Also I probably over estimated how much gushing wound plays into it.
Last edited by Millerr on Thu Mar 12, 2015 1:50 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Cetlysm
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Re: Feral Nerf =(

Post by Cetlysm » Thu Mar 12, 2015 12:09 am

The thing that makes it look way worse than it is, is how they could have brought up the damage somewhere else without even trying too hard or hurting pvp by buffing rip which hits like a potato already and at the same time helped ferals in cleave.

But no they didn't take the time, they just pulled a random nerf out of their ass to stop the pvp crying, but all this does is make the pvpers go cry about another thing.
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Dysheki
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Re: Feral Nerf =(

Post by Dysheki » Thu Mar 12, 2015 12:11 am

15/135 = 11.1% nerf to shred during Incarnation.

On a multi-target fight not a big deal. Single target fight maybe a 1% nerf?

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aggixx
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Re: Feral Nerf =(

Post by aggixx » Thu Mar 12, 2015 12:40 am

1.3% single target. So maaaaybe 2% in the worst possible situation (3.5 minute Gruul or something).
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ShmooDude
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Re: Feral Nerf =(

Post by ShmooDude » Thu Mar 12, 2015 5:24 am

aggixx wrote:1.3% single target. So maaaaybe 2% in the worst possible situation (3.5 minute Gruul or something).
How's SotF compare to Incarnation with the change? I doubt its enough to change the balance but curious none the less.

Zstriker
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Re: Feral Nerf =(

Post by Zstriker » Thu Mar 12, 2015 8:26 am

incarnation is massivly ahead still

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Brutus
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Re: Feral Nerf =(

Post by Brutus » Thu Mar 12, 2015 2:47 pm

Surely done for PVP. Still a bit baffled that PVP affects PVE, when they've clearly shown they can make a spell do separate things in both areas.

Ayleena
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Re: Feral Nerf =(

Post by Ayleena » Thu Mar 12, 2015 6:16 pm

They have never seemed to be able to split PVP from PVE in Feral for whatever reason, which is why we get buffed/nerfed so much.

I have to admit that I am a bad player because I didn't even think of using stealth/shred during incarnation - I only use it for rakes. :oops: I assume that has to be macroed?

lysk
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Re: Feral Nerf =(

Post by lysk » Thu Mar 12, 2015 6:20 pm

Ayleena wrote:They have never seemed to be able to split PVP from PVE in Feral for whatever reason, which is why we get buffed/nerfed so much.

I have to admit that I am a bad player because I didn't even think of using stealth/shred during incarnation - I only use it for rakes. :oops: I assume that has to be macroed?
being able to stealth in incarnation has no use in pve

shred in incarnation works as if u are in stealth so no need for a macro.

artsdruid
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Re: Feral Nerf =(

Post by artsdruid » Thu Mar 12, 2015 10:35 pm

no need to hit stealth while in incarnation, waste of time. moves already act as if stealthed.

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Ravajin
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Re: Feral Nerf =(

Post by Ravajin » Fri Mar 13, 2015 3:54 am

lysk wrote: being able to stealth in incarnation has no use in pve
A bit off topic, but stealth=exit combat(vanish)=threat drop, meaning that you can actually get that wipe avoiding combat res off on a tank instead of being instant gibbed by topping threat if other tank can't taunt, or just drop your threat so the other dps get gibbed first ^^

Other uses can be against Iron Maidens Crystalized Blood as an example, as all stealth abilities remove you as the target for crystalized blood and stops the cast completely.

So it is useful for pve, but only for very specific cases where you have cds up for dps reasons :)

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Thejnkz
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Re: Feral Nerf =(

Post by Thejnkz » Fri Mar 13, 2015 4:23 pm

What does [Hotfix in testing] mean? They implement it with the rest of the hotfixes and it's currently in live, but they're watching it closely to change it further if needed?

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Re: Feral Nerf =(

Post by Tinderhoof » Fri Mar 13, 2015 4:52 pm

They are testing it internally to verify it doesn't break anything. It should be pushed as a hot fix soon'ish.

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Re: Feral Nerf =(

Post by ShmooDude » Fri Mar 13, 2015 4:55 pm

Ravajin wrote:
lysk wrote: being able to stealth in incarnation has no use in pve
A bit off topic, but stealth=exit combat(vanish)=threat drop, meaning that you can actually get that wipe avoiding combat res off on a tank instead of being instant gibbed by topping threat if other tank can't taunt, or just drop your threat so the other dps get gibbed first ^^

Other uses can be against Iron Maidens Crystalized Blood as an example, as all stealth abilities remove you as the target for crystalized blood and stops the cast completely.

So it is useful for pve, but only for very specific cases where you have cds up for dps reasons :)
Is it a permanent threat drop or a temporary one?

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Tinderhoof
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Re: Feral Nerf =(

Post by Tinderhoof » Fri Mar 13, 2015 5:00 pm

I don't think it drops threat, I think it just drops you as the current target.

TheLOOGE
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Re: Feral Nerf =(

Post by TheLOOGE » Fri Mar 13, 2015 5:32 pm

It's a permanent threat drop. Like Feign Death or Vanish. I can confirm this. Gruul can confirm this.

**EDIT: If you prowl it drops threat. Use this to your advantage if you are trying to be among the last alive to get your first Gruul kill. I've also used this to reset the encounter if we're wiping and I want to save an Augment Rune/food buff/I'm lazy and I don't want to run back.

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Thejnkz
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Re: Feral Nerf =(

Post by Thejnkz » Fri Mar 13, 2015 6:46 pm

Tinderhoof wrote:They are testing it internally to verify it doesn't break anything. It should be pushed as a hot fix soon'ish.
So you're saying it's not live yet? But the Hunter tranq shot change also says [Hotfix in testing] and it is currently live.

TheLOOGE
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Re: Feral Nerf =(

Post by TheLOOGE » Fri Mar 13, 2015 7:46 pm

Check the latest patch notes. Usually hotfixes like that go in same night it's posted. Doesn't take days to test. Maybe hours. Shred hotfix is definitely live. Not entirely sure on Tranq shot though, but most likely is.

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Re: Feral Nerf =(

Post by Bluewulf » Fri Mar 13, 2015 8:37 pm

Was feral that strong in pve that it needed a nerf or was this really a case of us being hit by the backlash of feral being too strong in pvp?

It's not a big nerf but the principle of it saddens me. I'm not enjoying the thought of being outdone by mages and hunters consistently.
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Thejnkz
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Re: Feral Nerf =(

Post by Thejnkz » Fri Mar 13, 2015 8:54 pm

It was definitely nerfed because of pvp. A lot of arena players were complaining pretty hard about ferals. Their damage during incarnation was insane (and still is really good). But that, along with the tranq shot nerf were geared towards pvp.

If the devs don't want to separate the feral abilities or talents for pvp/pve then they need to stop buffing direct damage attacks and just buff bleeds. That will increase pve damage without making anyone complain in pvp. High burst damage (incarnation=shred in stealth) creates problems in pvp since it can be unhealable, but increasing sustained damage via bleeds would be easier to heal in pvp.

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Re: Feral Nerf =(

Post by Dominati » Sat Mar 14, 2015 7:39 am

The damage switch from Bleeds to shred in WoD was because pvp'ers were complaining about the damage bleeds were dishing out...considering once they get applied, there is no way to get rid of them, unlike most Dots which can be dispelled; allowing ferals to deal substantial damage without even being on the target.

Calling for bleed buffs and hence a move back in that direction is counter productive.

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Re: Feral Nerf =(

Post by TheLOOGE » Sat Mar 14, 2015 9:38 am

Correct. PvP'ers are going to cry whenever Feral is strong -- that's just the inevitable, unavoidable truth. They cry about being bleed kited (MoP/Cata) or they cry when Ferals have too much burst (WotLK/WoD). Dom pretty much nailed it above: shifting damage back over to bleeds just changes the nature of the teardrop, so to speak. Doesn't stop them from flowing.

Sadly, I don't think that Feral direct damage nerfs are finished. I anticipate at least a nerf to Ferocious Bite in some capacity. Whether it be just a % dmg nerf in PvP combat only or just a nerf in general, I really believe Bite is on the chopping block.

I will say though, if our damage was shifted back to bleeds, I think 'less' people would be upset. Bleeds are at least in some form counter-able with Ice Blocks, Racials, BoP's, Bubbles etc.... It's a lot harder to counter mega-burst in a very small time frame which is what we've got now.

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Re: Feral Nerf =(

Post by Polihayse » Sat Mar 14, 2015 1:27 pm

I don't understand why feral has changed so much from MoP. I started playing feral because of its unique play style as I'm sure a lot of people did. It went from high sustained damage to cooldown-based burst damage like all of the other classes. We would start at the bottom of the meter and work our ways up to the top. We lost tranquility and other classes gained raid utility. We lost our ability to do competitive aoe. Our single target damage is now within a couple of percents of most classes. Our tier 4 and tier 7 talent selection is a complete joke. Was feral really overpowered enough in MoP to warrant all of these nerfs? Did they think that making feral similar to other dps specs would attract more people to the spec? The spec just feels broken and incomplete to me.

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Re: Feral Nerf =(

Post by Nayni » Sat Mar 14, 2015 1:48 pm

Polihayse wrote:I don't understand why feral has changed so much from MoP. I started playing feral because of its unique play style as I'm sure a lot of people did. It went from high sustained damage to cooldown-based burst damage like all of the other classes. We would start at the bottom of the meter and work our ways up to the top. We lost tranquility and other classes gained raid utility. We lost our ability to do competitive aoe. Our single target damage is now within a couple of percents of most classes. Our tier 4 and tier 7 talent selection is a complete joke. Was feral really overpowered enough in MoP to warrant all of these nerfs? Did they think that making feral similar to other dps specs would attract more people to the spec? The spec just feels broken and incomplete to me.

Even though I agree the problem with the MoP playstyle is that it doesn't fit at all in current WoD content.
There just are priority targets that need to die in order to beat the encounter, the 3minute cooldowns and the fact they are so bursty are a big part of the reason Feral is even remotely viable right now.

But I do get your point, I picked up feral in the later stages of MoP because of the class dynamic and playstyle. Although I think a big part of that playstyle was thanks to Rune of Re-Origination Feral has indeed shifted into a more direct damage nuker. Atm though I don't mind it all that much. I do however think that this nerf was already the wrong direction again because as it stands right now our only reliability in raids is our ability to single target. I've always felt that Feral should be where Arcane Mages are if u'd look at current Simcraft results. Feral has no raid wide utility, all the utility we have are semi to fully selfish which makes us not the most appealing class to bring, especially when other classes are doing similar single target while also brining that raid wide utility.

What I would like is an indirect buff to bleeds, which would be to give Mastery a better scaling as it is. There's also loads of work to be done on our talent but I doubt those will be addressed in this expansion. What I do think is possible is to change Incarnation to be a 2min CD, while brining the duration down to 15-20 seconds. This would give Feral a much more reliable burst where it's needed as I currently feel 3minutes is too much of a burden.

The hardest part this class will always have is the way they balance the game between PvE and PvP. Because the needs we have in PvE are so dangerous to tip the scale in PvP.
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