Holding your 2m trinket.

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Xero
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Holding your 2m trinket.

Post by Xero » Tue Mar 17, 2015 2:28 am

Hey guys.

My sims are showing a slight DPS gain for holding your trinket so that you can couple it with berserk every time (thanks to 4pc).

Wanted to clarify that y'all are getting the same results.

Cheers.

ShmooDude
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Re: Holding your 2m trinket.

Post by ShmooDude » Tue Mar 17, 2015 7:56 am

In what kind of duration fight and what gear specifically? Last time I tried that with default duration (450s +-20%), it wasn't a DPS increase. However, if you're doing for example a 3-4 minute fight, it will be because you still only get 2 uses and they're best synced with berserk in both instances (though current APL should take that into account I believe?).

450s +-20%:
T17H
31688.8 Default
31652.6 Berserk/Incarnation only

T17M
37177.1 Default
37113.7 Berserk/Incarnation only

200s +-20%:
T17M
40417.2 Default
40376.2 Berserk/Incarnation only

That said, they're all pretty close so maybe in a specific setup of gear it might be better?

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Polihayse
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Re: Holding your 2m trinket.

Post by Polihayse » Tue Mar 17, 2015 4:52 pm

On mythic gruul, I actually do something like the opposite.

start - cds, potion and trinket
2m - trinket
4m- cds, potion, and trinket
6m(if it goes that long)-trinket

Has anyone done some math to show the average dps gain when using trinket, cds, or trinket and cds? If we had that, then we could simply just arrange our abilities in a way that adds up to the largest increase in damage.

ShmooDude
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Re: Holding your 2m trinket.

Post by ShmooDude » Wed Apr 01, 2015 5:49 pm

Actually, running the sims again its now a gain for me too...

Even under the most likely "optimal" conditions of a 400 second fight (just enough time to fit 3rd incarnation/berserk in for 4 trinket uses to 3 inc/berserk) its showing as an up.

Not to mention the numbers I quoted originally aren't even close to what I'm getting now... Probably had something setup wrong in the first ones I ran would be my guess given how low those numbers are.

Makes things easier for me, that way I don't have to worry about fight durations or what not.

Itharius
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Re: Holding your 2m trinket.

Post by Itharius » Wed Apr 08, 2015 3:21 pm

Polihayse wrote:On mythic gruul, I actually do something like the opposite.

start - cds, potion and trinket
2m - trinket
4m- cds, potion, and trinket
6m(if it goes that long)-trinket

Has anyone done some math to show the average dps gain when using trinket, cds, or trinket and cds? If we had that, then we could simply just arrange our abilities in a way that adds up to the largest increase in damage.
It's very rare that Gruul lasts over 6 minutes, because he hits berserk at 6 min. For that fight, you'll want to hold your trinket for your three minute berserk. Then you might use it again at 5 min.

Personally, I hold trinket for berserk on every fight, just because I'm bad at this video game.

Leafkiller
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Re: Holding your 2m trinket.

Post by Leafkiller » Wed Apr 08, 2015 5:01 pm

Itharius wrote:It's very rare that Gruul lasts over 6 minutes, because he hits berserk at 6 min. For that fight, you'll want to hold your trinket for your three minute berserk. Then you might use it again at 5 min.

Personally, I hold trinket for berserk on every fight, just because I'm bad at this video game.
For a fight that is less than 6 minutes, you only get two berserks - so you shouldn't be using the second berserk until Gruul hits 25%. If that is sometime after 4+ minutes into the fight you have time to use your two minute trinket an extra time between the two berserks. It really depends on how fast your raid team is doing the fight...

Itharius
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Re: Holding your 2m trinket.

Post by Itharius » Thu Apr 09, 2015 7:06 pm

Leafkiller wrote:
Itharius wrote:It's very rare that Gruul lasts over 6 minutes, because he hits berserk at 6 min. For that fight, you'll want to hold your trinket for your three minute berserk. Then you might use it again at 5 min.

Personally, I hold trinket for berserk on every fight, just because I'm bad at this video game.
For a fight that is less than 6 minutes, you only get two berserks - so you shouldn't be using the second berserk until Gruul hits 25%. If that is sometime after 4+ minutes into the fight you have time to use your two minute trinket an extra time between the two berserks. It really depends on how fast your raid team is doing the fight...
I pop the second berserk as soon as it lines up with my tiger's fury, since I just end up energy capped when popping berserk alongside bloodlust at the < 30% range. It's worked well for me in terms of parses (about 52k dps), but I couldn't tell you whether it's ideal.

msrobinson
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Re: Holding your 2m trinket.

Post by msrobinson » Fri Apr 10, 2015 3:49 am

I pop the second berserk as soon as it lines up with my tiger's fury, since I just end up energy capped when popping berserk alongside bloodlust at the < 30% range. It's worked well for me in terms of parses (about 52k dps), but I couldn't tell you whether it's ideal.
It's not. I think.

If you only get 2 casts of cooldowns during an encounter, you need to save that 2nd use for execute phase (potentially during a trinket proc like trigger, but I'm not sure how practical this is). The reasoning being that you do not have to worry about rip timers, as that it taken care for you. The main thing, as I understand it, you can get 4 FB off in an execute Berserk more easily, which translates to a large damage gain. Outside of execute phase, going for a similar goal with 2nd berserk (the 4 FB), you will most likely risk Rip falling off the target.

With proper maintenance of dot timers (rip and rake), where you do not need to cast them a single time during your cooldown, you can expect the average damage during berserk both above 25% and below 25% to be in the same ballpark. If you are maximizing the potential of Berserk during execute phase, however, you will see a noticeable average damage gain over doing it out of execute phase. There is higher damage potential with less risk involved.

You are getting the 4 fb by waiting until 4 combo points from incarn/shred. HT. Improved Rake. Berserk/FB at second 0. This should give you three full FB, two of them with Tiger's Fury, maximum shred damage inside berserk (due to tiger's fury), and the finishing global of Berserk is also a FB (which is frequently at 4 CP).

Also, what fights that last 5-6 minutes are you using Berserk at 30%? Normally I've seen it used off the bat.

You might be energy capping due to dragonspine trinket (which I'm unaware if you are using), too much haste on gear (my condolences), or for intentional pooling beforehand, in which case you can consciously pool less. I don't think that bloodlust gives such a substantial amount of energy regen that you are gaining 40~ energy over the 15 seconds of FB and Shred spam.

-------------------------------------------------

This is just what I've thought about berserk timings on gruul/butcher like encounters. Basically exactly what Poli said, in holding Berserk until 4~ minutes, when Lub-Dub comes off cooldown and you're normally in/near execute phase, except a little reasoning on why, and what advantages in damage gains/risk there are.

If the fight goes long, to 6:20~ on Gruul, we might get another partial use out of Incarnation, but not necessarily berserk (as berserk is usually cast 5 seconds after incarnation in my experience, and i'm assuming average cooldown timer loss of a few seconds as we wait to time up with imperfectly used tiger's fury). A full duration Incarnation would 100% be worth it, but that is highly unlikely.

On a 6:00 minute encounter, if you hold your trinket for 1 minute for your cooldowns, you lose out on 1 cast of Lub-Dub.

Whereas normally it would be cast at 0:00 (with cd), 2:00, 4:00 (with cd), and 6:00 (as enrage happens), you'd be casting it at 0:00 (with cd) and 3:00 (with cd), potentially 6:00 (as enrage happens). Losing out on an on-use trinket proc is pretty devastating, as you miss out on potential FB multistrikes as well as 20 seconds of bleed multistrikes.

I am under the opinion that what Polihayse is doing is correct, but I'm eager to find an improvement if you have any ideas/theories of why your method may be better.

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