I think Feral design is going in the wrong direction

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Grizzlebee
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I think Feral design is going in the wrong direction

Post by Grizzlebee » Tue Mar 31, 2015 4:19 pm

Right now Feral damage is split pretty evenly. Disregarding t17 4p, on a typical single target fight each of my damaging attacks is approximately 20% of my total damage. Which is disappointing. I remember back in Cata when bleeds were a majority of our damage.

At the moment there is a lot of emphasis on our burst because berserk+incarnation+4 piece makes us a very spiky class. It feels like we are going more in the direction of warrior or rogue at the moment when I feel like we should be going more towards affliction warlock. While affliction warlocks are a ranged magic dot class, ferals should be a melee physical bleed class. Rip and rake (base rake, not improved) just seem underwhelming at the moment for me personally. Rip+Rake should make up about 60% of our damage and direct attacks should make up the rest. Our ferocious bite is too powerful while rip is too weak.

I am not saying that feral is weak at all. What I am saying is that I'd like to see Feral's go back to being more heavily bleed focused. I would love to see mastery become the top stat again.

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Tinderhoof
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Re: I think Feral design is going in the wrong direction

Post by Tinderhoof » Tue Mar 31, 2015 5:02 pm

When ever I hear "Should be more like <Insert Class Here>" I feel design has failed. I don't think we should want to be like other specs, I think we should feel unique (I think we are to a point). As for direct damage being king right now, it was totally the opposite complaint all through out MoP. "FB hits like a "wet noodle*". Shred isn't worth using...". Some people didn't like how Bleeds were most of our damage, and now they aren't. That's sadly why listening to feedback can be a double edged sword. If you are happy you rarely give feedback and those that are unhappy get all the face time.

* I hate this phrase with a passion.

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aggixx
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Re: I think Feral design is going in the wrong direction

Post by aggixx » Tue Mar 31, 2015 6:05 pm

The big thing that went wrong is that they decided to push us more towards half direct half DoT but neglected to give us an effective way to deal direct multitarget damage. Other than that, they did a great job finding a good middle ground between the two that satisfies both the direct damage and the DoT damage fiends and historically that's very much been an integral part of the feral identity.

And in cata bleeds barely did more damage than they do now but we also had Swipe that actually did good damage, so I really don't see your point.
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Zstriker
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Re: I think Feral design is going in the wrong direction

Post by Zstriker » Tue Mar 31, 2015 8:12 pm

Grizzlebee wrote:. I remember back in Cata when bleeds were a majority of our damage.
you remember bad, at prepatch yes they were insane but that was fixed quick, after a huge pvp whine
Tinderhoof wrote:When ever I hear "Should be more like <Insert Class Here>" I feel design has failed. I don't think we should want to be like other specs, I think we should feel unique (I think we are to a point). As for direct damage being king right now, it was totally the opposite complaint all through out MoP. "FB hits like a "wet noodle*". Shred isn't worth using...". Some people didn't like how Bleeds were most of our damage, and now they aren't. That's sadly why listening to feedback can be a double edged sword. If you are happy you rarely give feedback and those that are unhappy get all the face time.

* I hate this phrase with a passion.
well PvP part of this game really needed it, and some really foget already what made us bleed terminators - abuse of snapshotting trinkets, but that thing didn't work in PvP or low hp adds.

now they sloved it abit, but made new problem - aoe
aggixx wrote:The big thing that went wrong is that they decided to push us more towards half direct half DoT but neglected to give us an effective way to deal direct multitarget damage. Other than that, they did a great job finding a good middle ground between the two that satisfies both the direct damage and the DoT damage fiends and historically that's very much been an integral part of the feral identity.

And in cata bleeds barely did more damage than they do now but we also had Swipe that actually did good damage, so I really don't see your point.
that good yes, that they relocated some bleed damage to direct attack, but they fogot our aoe(or didn't wanted to)... even now it's been pointed to them many times, I still don't understand what is stopping them to fix it, which feral community demand, no response to that at all

artsdruid
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Re: I think Feral design is going in the wrong direction

Post by artsdruid » Tue Mar 31, 2015 10:11 pm

man alot of people come to fluiddruid just to whine.

Dysheki
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Re: I think Feral design is going in the wrong direction

Post by Dysheki » Wed Apr 01, 2015 8:56 am

artsdruid wrote:man alot of people come to fluiddruid just to whine.
Oh the irony.

Regardless of whether or not you agree at least the point made wasnt just some random one liner with absolutely no thought put into it. ;)

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Re: I think Feral design is going in the wrong direction

Post by msrobinson » Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:43 am

Dysheki wrote:
artsdruid wrote:man alot of people come to fluiddruid just to whine.
Oh the irony.

Regardless of whether or not you agree at least the point made wasnt just some random one liner with absolutely no thought put into it. ;)
Both of your posts, as is mine here, as completely unnecessary. I feel the need to share my thoughts on this matter, though.

I tend to agree with artsdruid.

I come to this forum to push the limits of the class, theorycraft and find the mistakes in our rotation to improve the class and do more damage. If the stuff I read doesn't directly relate to that, then I don't think it should have been posted here.

I really, quite intensely, dislike any posts that aren't directly related to furthering the understanding of the spec. All of these "are we good enough?" and "what would you want to change if we could?" posts do absolutely nothing with regards to furthering our understanding, and I wish would be weeded out. If we wanted to make pretend buffs/changes, we should do so in the off-topic forum, in hopes that actual useful discussion isn't drowned out.

Alteredbeast
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Re: I think Feral design is going in the wrong direction

Post by Alteredbeast » Wed Apr 01, 2015 11:38 am

msrobinson wrote:
Dysheki wrote:
artsdruid wrote:man alot of people come to fluiddruid just to whine.
"what would you want to change if we could?" posts do absolutely nothing with regards to furthering our understanding, and I wish would be weeded out.
I think it's a great idea to think outside the box and hypothesize ways to improve upon feral. Complaining is not productive, but why stifle a great idea or improvement before it has a chance to come into being?
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Tinderhoof
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Re: I think Feral design is going in the wrong direction

Post by Tinderhoof » Wed Apr 01, 2015 12:53 pm

The point of the Fluiddruid is to be a community focused on the Druid class with an emphasis on the Feral Spec. The forums are here for the community to have open dialog about the spec and to ask questions about said spec. This is not the MMO-Champion forums, or Elitist Jerks. If people want to ask questions or have a discussion about how they feel about the design of the spec that is totally within the bounds of what this place is for. I draw the line at complaining just to complain which is not what the OP did. I may not agree with their opinion but as long as the discussion isn't just "We suck, give buffs" I'm fine with letting it go on.

Grizzlebee
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Re: I think Feral design is going in the wrong direction

Post by Grizzlebee » Wed Apr 01, 2015 4:22 pm

I agree. I didn't mean to sound whiny or complain, this thread wasn't meant to be a complaint at all. I just thought that Feral's should have more of their damage shifted to bleeds. As Aggixx said, he thinks that Blizzard has found quite a good balance and makes some good points on that fact. Even if they don't directly buff Rip or Rake, I'd like to see a shift from crit as our primary stat to mastery as a primary stat. I enjoy seeing high bleed damage and I think that mastery should have been our attunement and not crit. It just fits the spec better, just how Fire mages and Fury warriors favor crit.

I also agree with Aggixx that our Swipe needs a buff but it is clear they won't be touching it again for a while.

Leafkiller
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Re: I think Feral design is going in the wrong direction

Post by Leafkiller » Wed Apr 01, 2015 7:55 pm

Tinderhoof wrote:The point of the Fluiddruid is to be a community focused on the Druid class with an emphasis on the Feral Spec. The forums are here for the community to have open dialog about the spec and to ask questions about said spec. This is not the MMO-Champion forums, or Elitist Jerks. If people want to ask questions or have a discussion about how they feel about the design of the spec that is totally within the bounds of what this place is for. I draw the line at complaining just to complain which is not what the OP did. I may not agree with their opinion but as long as the discussion isn't just "We suck, give buffs" I'm fine with letting it go on.
Just adding to what Tinder said (and still being off topic):

Being courteous to one another is a key pillar of our community and part of what makes Fluiddruid so different from other forums I have seen, where you either have the chaos of people trolling one another or the almost fascist style that Elitist Jerks resorted to where you were given warning points for making posts that were deemed to not further the discussion. This is what led many of us to come to this forum in the first place. Try looking for decent forums for other classes that have a community as strong as Fluiddruid, and you will find very few (if any). So even if you disagree with a post or dislike a particular discussion, keep in mind what makes Fluiddruid different, including our courtesy, and the fact that we cater to the entire druid community spanning the spectrum from serious theory crafters, ferals who are members of some of the top guilds in the world, average ferals looking to improve their play and novice ferals looking for advice on how to execute a basic rotation.

Kojiyama
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Re: I think Feral design is going in the wrong direction

Post by Kojiyama » Thu Apr 02, 2015 1:28 am

On the original topic and to reply to Grizzlebee's last post: I think they probably wanted to avoid a situation there was too much overlap between spec attunements. Mastery is already the attunement for Balance and Guardian Druids, so perhaps having Feral with the same thing was a little too simplistic for gearing purposes?

Personally, I think the balance they have right now between bleeds and direct attacks is pretty good. I like that FB hits hard and I like that DoTs are useful. Both are important.

I agree with Aggixx that the main hole in our toolset is burst/direct AoE damage of some flavor. I actually feel like Thrash is a nice ability and I like using it, but not having some way to deal with/help out with short-lived adds makes us feel a little limited in certain raid scenarios. These types of scenarios come up often enough that every class should have some way of dealing with them.
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Re: I think Feral design is going in the wrong direction

Post by teddabear » Fri Apr 03, 2015 1:08 am

Having high burst is a good thing. It is unavoidable that your damage is going to feel lackluster outside of that burst. Maybe it was overdone but I would have to say this was a step in the right direction. I wouldn't mind seeing some of the white damage moved to bleed damage but making Ferocious Bite a good ability is the best change Feral has had in a long time. If Blizzard is going to tune anything regarding Feral, I would by far prefer it be Swipe.

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Elamari
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Re: I think Feral design is going in the wrong direction

Post by Elamari » Sun Apr 05, 2015 6:45 am

Zstriker wrote:that good yes, that they relocated some bleed damage to direct attack, but they fogot our aoe(or didn't wanted to)... even now it's been pointed to them many times, I still don't understand what is stopping them to fix it, which feral community demand, no response to that at all
One line that comes from the devs frequently is that "not all classes should be good at every aspect of the game" (or something to that effect). I feel that their response is almost a hard counter to the "buff our AOE damage" complaint - we have strong single target and cleave damage but weak. Though I think a strong counter argument could be made if there is evidence of Ferals being sat / decline in numbers where encounters require the burst AOE that we have problems with. That said, I think that would only apply to a very small sample of high end players and not be representative of the spec as a whole.

Sure buffs to our AOE would be nice, but are they really needed? At the moment we have a niche, a niche where we are doing well. If they were to buff our AOE I have a feeling that out damage would be redistributed and we would fall down to the "jack of all trades, master of none" area.
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