1 pt roar?

Face-rippin fun.

Moderator: Forum Administrators

Post Reply
Debauche
Posts: 13
Joined: Sun Apr 05, 2015 12:39 am

1 pt roar?

Post by Debauche » Sun Apr 05, 2015 12:44 am

I have been playing with the idea of a 1 combo pt roar after the initial opener. Wouldn't refreshing 30 second 1 combo pt roars make more sense and that way you are maximizing your combo pt usage to fb?

Anyways just an idea, might be something to test, or maybe it has already been done.

Anyways looking forward to hearing back.

Debauche -
Originally Burning Blade
Currently Kel Thuzad

Debauche
Posts: 13
Joined: Sun Apr 05, 2015 12:39 am

Re: 1 pt roar?

Post by Debauche » Sun Apr 05, 2015 12:55 am

Little testing

Refreshing at 13 seconds yields the below

1 - ~27
2- ~35
3- ~42
4- ~50
5- ~56

So im guessing this would lead to more global usage and and more fb's. I know we currently have a lot of wait in our rotation, so I guess the question would be would the extra gcd/energy usage be detrimental to our overall.

Kojiyama
Revered
Posts: 478
Joined: Mon Jan 19, 2015 1:47 pm

Re: 1 pt roar?

Post by Kojiyama » Sun Apr 05, 2015 1:53 am

I just simmed this and was slightly surprised to find that it had either a neutral or very slight (200-300 DPS, or 0.8%) positive effect, depending on the refresh timing logic used. I was expecting the results to be more dramatic one way or another.

At least in the sims I ran, this seemed to not be due to more FBs but actually slightly improved Rip uptime (+2.3%) due to random cases of having Rip falling before getting back to 5cp when Rip's duration is near (but not quite at) Pandemic.

However, the real answer is probably that it really doesn't matter much. I may look into this some more tomorrow with regards to conditional timing tweaks if I have time.
Image

Flyx
Posts: 11
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2014 8:02 am

Re: 1 pt roar?

Post by Flyx » Sun Apr 05, 2015 7:19 am

Is there anyway you can sim using a 1 point roar when incarnation is less than 30 seconds to come off CD but savage roar will drop off before then? I think that is probably where most gain is as you almost guarentee an extra finisher from that and I'm quite sure is what 90% of us are doing.

Debauche
Posts: 13
Joined: Sun Apr 05, 2015 12:39 am

Re: 1 pt roar?

Post by Debauche » Sun Apr 05, 2015 7:23 am

From my own testing last night I came to a similar conclusion. My rip uptime felt very easy to maintain when I wasn't trying to squeeze in the extra combo pts for roar. However, I'm sure the extra energy usage probably slows the play down a little. I definitely felt very comfortable refreshing at 13 and returning to 25, definitely gave me a great window to operate the rest of my rotation in. I'm sure this play style would favor things like meatyDST. The play would probably in general favor a hint more haste then we currently value.

Debauche
Posts: 13
Joined: Sun Apr 05, 2015 12:39 am

Re: 1 pt roar?

Post by Debauche » Sun Apr 05, 2015 7:27 am

I usually plan ahead I look out about 20 seconds from roar falling off and try to plan to refresh roar to 20 with a cheap 1cmbo pt roar then refresh rip prior to zerking, pool upto 4 cmbo pts for the ht incarnation rake zerking fb. This is obviously after the first cooldown set as im not expecting trinket procs at this point to help generate combo pts. using this technique I refresh the roar with incarn before it drops and don't have to reapply rip before 3 fbs to get the most out of 4 set.

Kojiyama
Revered
Posts: 478
Joined: Mon Jan 19, 2015 1:47 pm

Re: 1 pt roar?

Post by Kojiyama » Sun Apr 05, 2015 11:09 am

So, I wanted to confirm this in-game but the Pandemic threshold for Savage Roar still appears to be based on the duration of the spell that is being applied rather than that being refreshed.

e.g. if you refresh a 5cp Roar with a 1cp Roar at the 'normal' Pandemic threshold, you only go up from say 12s ->26s (+14s) However, if you refresh at ~5s (5.4s @ 18s duration) you still go up to 26s.

After toying with this some more, it really doesn't appear to have any positive benefit outside of the case mentioned about not 'wasting' a 5cp Roar prior to Incarnation coming back off cooldown. However, the difference is so minimal in every case that it really doesn't matter too much as long as you don't allow it to drop. If using a smaller Roar in the Incarnation case, you should be careful to use the smaller Pandemic threshold otherwise you will waste about 7s of the duration.
Last edited by Kojiyama on Sun Apr 05, 2015 11:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
Image

Debauche
Posts: 13
Joined: Sun Apr 05, 2015 12:39 am

Re: 1 pt roar?

Post by Debauche » Sun Apr 05, 2015 11:27 am

I will continue to play around with this. Playing with a couple different sim variants would be more conclusive.

I guess the big difference will be the number of FB and SR executed in the duration of the different approaches.

Zstriker
Honored
Posts: 189
Joined: Thu Sep 12, 2013 12:55 pm

Re: 1 pt roar?

Post by Zstriker » Tue Apr 07, 2015 11:33 am

this is old fact,
Some people get used to finnishers at max CP, but SR work a bit different, it's power always same no matter how many cp you use, it's need to be always up, so ofc it's worth some time to use it even on 1 cp
doubt you win overall in that situation as u waste extra energy on pressing that button much more frequently

Leafkiller
Exalted
Posts: 1180
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2010 4:28 am

Re: 1 pt roar?

Post by Leafkiller » Tue Apr 07, 2015 11:29 pm

We used to have logic in the script that looked for potential collisions between Rip and SR, about 10 seconds ahead of time, and would do an early refresh of SR with how ever many CPs were available. Something like that might be worth resurrecting given that this seems to be related to Rip uptime.

User avatar
aggixx
Exalted
Posts: 2292
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2011 7:49 pm
Contact:

Re: 1 pt roar?

Post by aggixx » Wed Apr 08, 2015 1:12 am

Leafkiller wrote:We used to have logic in the script that looked for potential collisions between Rip and SR, about 10 seconds ahead of time, and would do an early refresh of SR with how ever many CPs were available. Something like that might be worth resurrecting given that this seems to be related to Rip uptime.
It is occasionally worth doing, if your Rip and SR are close and you know you won't be able to hit 5 before SR fades then its better to just SR ASAP with as few CP as possible to minimize the downtime.
ImageImage

Zstriker
Honored
Posts: 189
Joined: Thu Sep 12, 2013 12:55 pm

Re: 1 pt roar?

Post by Zstriker » Wed Apr 08, 2015 1:13 am

rip uptime is no point(it's already easy to keep running), reason is to throw as much as possible FB during fight to not let your bleed fall off

User avatar
aggixx
Exalted
Posts: 2292
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2011 7:49 pm
Contact:

Re: 1 pt roar?

Post by aggixx » Wed Apr 08, 2015 1:17 am

Kojiyama wrote:So, I wanted to confirm this in-game but the Pandemic threshold for Savage Roar still appears to be based on the duration of the spell that is being applied rather than that being refreshed.
Yep, that's correct. Working as intended, I think, however awkward it is.
ImageImage

Leafkiller
Exalted
Posts: 1180
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2010 4:28 am

Re: 1 pt roar?

Post by Leafkiller » Wed Apr 08, 2015 5:04 pm

aggixx wrote:
Leafkiller wrote:We used to have logic in the script that looked for potential collisions between Rip and SR, about 10 seconds ahead of time, and would do an early refresh of SR with how ever many CPs were available. Something like that might be worth resurrecting given that this seems to be related to Rip uptime.
It is occasionally worth doing, if your Rip and SR are close and you know you won't be able to hit 5 before SR fades then its better to just SR ASAP with as few CP as possible to minimize the downtime.
I am interested to know what it would look like in the simc APL. If it makes sense at times, then it should be a dps up in the simulator, and might be an alternative approach to the 1 point SRs being discussed here.

ShmooDude
Exalted
Posts: 1080
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2011 5:51 pm

Re: 1 pt roar?

Post by ShmooDude » Wed Apr 08, 2015 5:22 pm

aggixx wrote:
Kojiyama wrote:So, I wanted to confirm this in-game but the Pandemic threshold for Savage Roar still appears to be based on the duration of the spell that is being applied rather than that being refreshed.
Yep, that's correct. Working as intended, I think, however awkward it is.
How would that be more awkward than having to remember how many combo points you used on your last Savage Roar? At least this way you already know for a fact where the pandemic threshold is.

Kojiyama
Revered
Posts: 478
Joined: Mon Jan 19, 2015 1:47 pm

Re: 1 pt roar?

Post by Kojiyama » Wed Apr 08, 2015 6:10 pm

I PM'd Aggixx about this a bit ago, but since this is a wider discussion now...

I noticed when I was testing the other day that we seem to be getting about 2s 'free' duration whenever refreshing within Pandemic currently. The maximum value on the Pandemic refresh seems to be 1.3x duration + 2s in almost every case I have seen regardless of CPs used.

Is anyone else seeing this? (I seem to always be able to refresh up to 26s duration on 1 CP @ ~5s, rather than the expected 23.4s.)

If this is true, it could slightly favor 1 CP roars potentially since taking advantage of the 2 free seconds more often might outweigh some of the cons of using lower CP roars. I'm not sure SimC models it this way currently from the code I was looking at.
Image

ShmooDude
Exalted
Posts: 1080
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2011 5:51 pm

Re: 1 pt roar?

Post by ShmooDude » Wed Apr 08, 2015 7:24 pm

Kojiyama wrote:I PM'd Aggixx about this a bit ago, but since this is a wider discussion now...

I noticed when I was testing the other day that we seem to be getting about 2s 'free' duration whenever refreshing within Pandemic currently. The maximum value on the Pandemic refresh seems to be 1.3x duration + 2s in almost every case I have seen regardless of CPs used.

Is anyone else seeing this? (I seem to always be able to refresh up to 26s duration on 1 CP @ ~5s, rather than the expected 23.4s.)

If this is true, it could slightly favor 1 CP roars potentially since taking advantage of the 2 free seconds more often might outweigh some of the cons of using lower CP roars. I'm not sure SimC models it this way currently from the code I was looking at.
Hrm, good catch on that extra duration. Never really paid that close attention.

Expected:
1 CP = 23.4
2 CP = 31.2
3 CP = 39.0
4 CP = 46.8
5 CP = 54.6
*GoSR = 54.6

In game:
1 CP = 26.4 sec (+3)
2 CP = 34.2 sec (+3)
3 CP = 42.0 sec (+3)
4 CP = 49.8 sec (+3)
5 CP = 57.0 sec (+2.4)
*GoSR = 54.0 sec (-0.6)

Used Weak Auras to accurately get the exact max duration. You also seem to get this extra (usually 3) seconds during any pandemic refresh and not just if you get the full pandemic. Example:

Cast 2 CP SR without any previous SR = 24.0 seconds
Cast 2 CP SR with ~1 second remaining = 27.7 seconds
Cast 2 CP SR with ~4 seconds remaining = 30.4 seconds
Cast 5 CP SR without any previous SR = 42.0 seconds
Cast 5 CP SR with ~1 second remaining = 45.7 seconds
Cast 5 CP SR with ~4 seconds remaining = 48.7 seconds

Definitely getting extra time. Basically, until it gets fixed it means try not to let SR fall all the way off to take advantage of the bonus duration. As far as 1 point roar vs otherwise, idk.

Post Reply