How would you rework Feral Druids?

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Polihayse
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Re: How would you rework Feral Druids?

Post by Polihayse » Mon Aug 10, 2015 4:08 pm

Mobility is an issue for warriors because it is something that they really need to plan around. Warriors have ways of getting places, but if they don't plan properly, then they get screwed over. If you use up Charge, Intervene, and Heroic Leap, you get nothing else and you run at base move speed. If a boss is running after the tank at around 180% movespeed, then you are completely screwed unless you heroic leap in front of the boss and attack it as you slowly fall behind it. If you charge while it is running, it will not put you in a position that you can attack from. It almost feels as if you toggled run/walk. As feral, you don't really need to pay any mind to the mobility issues. You have Dash, Stampeding Roar, Wild Charge/Displacer Beast, an interrupt that acts as a pseudo charge, and an insane base movespeed.

I don't understand what you mean when you say warrior mobility has good design. It isn't better than what feral has. It is supposed to be worse. It is just different. idk.

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Re: How would you rework Feral Druids?

Post by Arnathis » Mon Aug 10, 2015 4:23 pm

Just want to touch on the talent choice comments. I was happy to find a use for heart of the wild a couple weeks ago. On heroic archimonde I was used as a 3rd tank for 15-20 seconds while we had 2 groups in the nether phase. Was fun actually feeling useful on a fight.

Strat involves sending one group down, getting the add to roughly 10% and waiting for the second group to come down at which point you blow it up and everyone comes back out very quickly, pop hero and go nuts on the boss. 3rd nether is a sacrifice group if you get it but the boss should be nearly dead at that point. I used HotW when the second group went down and held archy till everyone came back up.

Hooray for usefulness.

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Re: How would you rework Feral Druids?

Post by Lynxx » Mon Aug 10, 2015 5:54 pm

HoTW when used right is a Godsend. I have saved many a wipes by popping bear, brezzing on a proc and/or healing when the last healer goes down on a 1% burn phase. Just a great feeling that you can be a super hybrid for 45sec.
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Re: How would you rework Feral Druids?

Post by Polihayse » Mon Aug 10, 2015 10:20 pm

Die by the Sword works better for that lol.

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Re: How would you rework Feral Druids?

Post by Minibubble » Tue Aug 11, 2015 5:34 am

Lynxx wrote:HoTW when used right is a Godsend. I have saved many a wipes by popping bear, brezzing on a proc and/or healing when the last healer goes down on a 1% burn phase. Just a great feeling that you can be a super hybrid for 45sec.
Yeah but thats a rare occurence and imo a waste of a talent point for such a niche use. Often you either ressurect the tank or if not its a wipe. Also if everything goes right its a talent you never used. At least NV gives you a little bit healing. Thats what i hate about feral. Most of my talent tree abilities dont have any or rarely use.

And correct me if i am wrong. I liked the idea of scrapping the talent tree. As far as i understand the argument was, that the talent tree gives you an illusion of free choice. If we look at all the possible treepaths only few are viable in terms of DPS, the rest are suboptimal or really bad. However you need to balance for it for a great chunk of treepaths. Mostly people will stuck with the cookie cutter build anyways. So scrap the talent tree and give them a layered talent tree with 3 exclusive talents each layer. But if if they cannot compete with each other, or if T1 is good for spec one T2 for spec two or PvP, i think then it failed its whole purpose. Lunar Inspiration for one boss each raid? Claws of Shirvallah? I think for the last one i used it only one time to look at the new form. I hope they will rework all the talent tree and give us true choices. Choices that matter.
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Re: How would you rework Feral Druids?

Post by Polihayse » Tue Aug 11, 2015 11:26 am

Minibubble wrote:
Lynxx wrote:HoTW when used right is a Godsend. I have saved many a wipes by popping bear, brezzing on a proc and/or healing when the last healer goes down on a 1% burn phase. Just a great feeling that you can be a super hybrid for 45sec.
Yeah but thats a rare occurence and imo a waste of a talent point for such a niche use. Often you either ressurect the tank or if not its a wipe. Also if everything goes right its a talent you never used. At least NV gives you a little bit healing. Thats what i hate about feral. Most of my talent tree abilities dont have any or rarely use.

And correct me if i am wrong. I liked the idea of scrapping the talent tree. As far as i understand the argument was, that the talent tree gives you an illusion of free choice. If we look at all the possible treepaths only few are viable in terms of DPS, the rest are suboptimal or really bad. However you need to balance for it for a great chunk of treepaths. Mostly people will stuck with the cookie cutter build anyways. So scrap the talent tree and give them a layered talent tree with 3 exclusive talents each layer. But if if they cannot compete with each other, or if T1 is good for spec one T2 for spec two or PvP, i think then it failed its whole purpose. Lunar Inspiration for one boss each raid? Claws of Shirvallah? I think for the last one i used it only one time to look at the new form. I hope they will rework all the talent tree and give us true choices. Choices that matter.
I think you are wrong. You don't like the idea of scrapping the talent tree. im joking ha

You might have heard the spec within a spec idea from me earlier in this thread. The talent tree right now is supposed to give you some choice, but it only works the way it should for some classes. I think the idea is basically a failure when it comes to gameplay. The same thing can be accomplished by simply creating playstyles within each spec that give the same results as if you were to select specific talents without the crummy format of the current talent tree. For the parts of the talent tree that have to do with cc and utility, you can create a utility talent tree.

The problem with this idea is that you would now have 2 or 3 labels on dps playstyles within each spec. These playstyles would be like individual specs. This means that they would need to give more attention to each of these playstyles and they probably don't have the resources to do that. Feral currently only has one playstyle. If it had a minimum of 2, then they would either need to spend more time developing feral, or divide their resources between the two, which would most likely make the class have a poorer design. This is what I think anyway. I might be wrong.

I don't think 'real choice' is a possibility. My idea is to simply abandon choice and move on. Of course this will never happen though because the illusion of choice still attracts more people than no choice when there is absolutely no difference.

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Re: How would you rework Feral Druids?

Post by Ayleena » Tue Aug 11, 2015 4:23 pm

This is an interesting discussion. The illusion of choice has always been an illusion, even in the entangled tree days, because there was always a 'best way' for your particular play style, whether that be soloing, PVP, or PVE raiding. The way it is set up now, of course, doesn't even pretend to give us a choice, because other choices are so bad. But thinking about that, it's interesting for us hybrid classes, because while we can choose one talent or another as a differentiation, pure dps classes can choose whole specs. It makes our choices much more narrow, almost more like a nuance than really a change. At least, that is how it's designed to be.

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Re: How would you rework Feral Druids?

Post by Lynxx » Tue Aug 11, 2015 5:06 pm

Polihayse wrote:
You might have heard the spec within a spec idea from me earlier in this thread. The talent tree right now is supposed to give you some choice, but it only works the way it should for some classes. I think the idea is basically a failure when it comes to gameplay. The same thing can be accomplished by simply creating playstyles within each spec that give the same results as if you were to select specific talents without the crummy format of the current talent tree. For the parts of the talent tree that have to do with cc and utility, you can create a utility talent tree.

The problem with this idea is that you would now have 2 or 3 labels on dps playstyles within each spec. These playstyles would be like individual specs. This means that they would need to give more attention to each of these playstyles and they probably don't have the resources to do that. Feral currently only has one playstyle. If it had a minimum of 2, then they would either need to spend more time developing feral, or divide their resources between the two, which would most likely make the class have a poorer design. This is what I think anyway. I might be wrong.

I don't think 'real choice' is a possibility. My idea is to simply abandon choice and move on. Of course this will never happen though because the illusion of choice still attracts more people than no choice when there is absolutely no difference.
I agree with you here. I would love to get rid of the HoTW, DoC and NV and replace that with something that I could tailor to the specific encounter. Say a new ability or AoE finisher for AoE type fights, a talent that make rake cleave to another target similar to Chimera shot or two to three target cleave fights, and a talent that modifies rake to extend with shred or something for ST fights.

These are completely off the top of my head, but i would be much happier with a system such as this. Something that allows us to modify the way our basic dmg works and would make us more viable all around. There is no reason we couldnt have something like this. There is no reason for so many druid talents to span across all specs.
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Re: How would you rework Feral Druids?

Post by Polihayse » Tue Aug 11, 2015 7:00 pm

The subspecs within each spec could each have its own playstyle that changes things like passives and abilities. Call the subpecs a focus. Class>Specialization>Focus. A focus can be one of several things. Sustained single target, sustained aoe, burst single target, burst aoe, cleave, frontloaded, etc. The focus would be an alternate playstyle within the spec. The playstyles would be able to do other things decently well too, but the focus would basically be what defines it.

Feral's focuses could be like burst single target, sustained single target, and sustained aoe. Burst single target could have increased passive energy regen and incarnation. Sustained single target could have increased bleed damage and bloodtalons instead of incarnation. The sustained single target focus would also have elements that made it decent for cleave. and then bloody thrash for the other. That's what I think.

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Re: How would you rework Feral Druids?

Post by Polihayse » Sat Aug 15, 2015 1:27 am

One change that I think is completely necessary is removing the Predatory Swiftness spell alert. In my opinion, there is no reason for it to be there. Spell alerts are meant to get your attention when you are not actively looking for it. With predatory swiftness, you pretty much know when it is going to activate. This isn't necessarily the case though when you use a finisher at less than 5 combo points. Still though. I think it causes more problems than it fixes. There are some cleave bosses that are just the right height such that the spell alert gets in the way of their health bars. When you are trying to monitor debuffs on the enemy health bars, the spell alert dancing in front of them gets pretty annoying.

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Re: How would you rework Feral Druids?

Post by Thandorr » Sat Aug 15, 2015 11:19 am

I wonder how the artifact weapon skill tree will appear for feral. Will it have REAL choice when choosing things early on that will affect our playstyle? When we fill the entire thing up will we see a much more complete spec that can compete with any of the other melee specs? Or will we see the same old-same old where feral is exiled to mediocrity because of terrible scaling, design and the illusion of choice, or blatant bland and thoughtless play. IDK - i'm a bit salty currently of the state that feral is in; I want my feral spec to be great, and not have to choose between playing feral which I love or playing something else which will make me more useful in progression.

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Re: How would you rework Feral Druids?

Post by imverykind » Sat Aug 15, 2015 6:22 pm

Polihayse wrote:One change that I think is completely necessary is removing the Predatory Swiftness spell alert. In my opinion, there is no reason for it to be there. Spell alerts are meant to get your attention when you are not actively looking for it. With predatory swiftness, you pretty much know when it is going to activate. This isn't necessarily the case though when you use a finisher at less than 5 combo points. Still though. I think it causes more problems than it fixes. There are some cleave bosses that are just the right height such that the spell alert gets in the way of their health bars. When you are trying to monitor debuffs on the enemy health bars, the spell alert dancing in front of them gets pretty annoying.
Actually you can turn it off. I turned everything off and just use a weak aura for it.

I want to add to the discussion about talent trees. I give always examples about Brewmaster Monks because that is mysecond most played class. BrM has true choices. If you look into the Talent tree of BrM you see how well it is designed compared to us. You can choose how to mitigate damage, how to heal, how to cc, how to move and between AoE and Single Target damage. It is really nice to change your playstyle for specific Raidencounter, Dungeons or PvP. Sometimes you can even deal with additional mechanic, like the debuff from the Wolf in Darmac or additional hits from Gruul. The only thing i change in feral is BT to LI for Council fights.

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Re: How would you rework Feral Druids?

Post by Polihayse » Sun Aug 16, 2015 10:23 am

I know you can turn it off, but you also can't turn it off without turning off clearcasting which is an effect that does warrant having a spell alert. Currently, the only way you can have one or the other is by turning off spell alerts completely and using some kind of addon to simulate the spell alert for clearcasting.

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Re: How would you rework Feral Druids?

Post by Minibubble » Sun Aug 16, 2015 6:13 pm

Polihayse wrote:I know you can turn it off, but you also can't turn it off without turning off clearcasting which is an effect that does warrant having a spell alert. Currently, the only way you can have one or the other is by turning off spell alerts completely and using some kind of addon to simulate the spell alert for clearcasting.
I use for both Weak Aura symbols which is better imo, since they are small and dont use much space. Additonally you can do the same animation with WA too.
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Re: How would you rework Feral Druids?

Post by Nayni » Sun Aug 16, 2015 6:17 pm

Play soundless and with every default spell alert off, wouldn't even know how the default UI alert looks like nor sound like atm ^^
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Re: How would you rework Feral Druids?

Post by Polihayse » Mon Aug 24, 2015 10:51 pm

Empowered moonkin should also have a spell alert. I'm surprised that it doesn't. That's balance though. Not our problem.

What if cat form worked off rage instead of energy? Cat and bear could be like stances that don't activate gcds. Bear could be aoe and cat could be single target. Rage is generated like 5 per swing. Cat form rage generation would be faster than attacking in bear. Switching forms does not affect your current rage. Cat form single target will have around 25% downtime. You can choose to pool your rage for situations that require aoe. When the time comes, turn bear and spend your rage to do some aoe.

Demon hunters are going to be leather wearers that work off of rage, so I don't know how similar this playstyle could be to them.

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Re: How would you rework Feral Druids?

Post by teddabear » Wed Aug 26, 2015 3:08 am

You can pretty much throw out the entire talent tree, it's junk. Blizzard doesn't even fix the things they promise to fix and they seem to make a point of not implementing solutions that are presented to them. They haven't put any effort into Feral since 3.1 so there are a lot of things that need work. Unfortunately any good ideas have gone to Rogues for the past 5 years and next expansion they will all go to Demon Hunter. I personally feel it is extremely unlikely Feral will be viable or enjoyable in 7.0. It has constantly lost abilities for years and gained very little. There is so much Blizzard doesn't finish there seems no chance Feral will receive the work it needs for Legion. The best measure of how little effort Blizzard puts into Feral is just take a look at your Aquatic form.

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Re: How would you rework Feral Druids?

Post by Polihayse » Wed Aug 26, 2015 10:47 am

I very much preferred it when our ability usage was less and the damage from abilities was much more potent. It is like they turned feral into a crappy rogue. Rogue is supposed to be spammy small damage. Imo feral should be slower with more power behind each attack. It just makes sense to me that it should be more like this. Of course, the slower playstyle should have more complexity to make up for the slower pace. Otherwise, it becomes boring. Slower playstyle means you need to anticipate the fight more in the case of target swapping. Sometimes the target swapping is not enough for the spec to handle even when you do anticipate it. In this case, you could easily fix this with a talent. Make this talent an ability that does not cost energy just like warriors have talents that don't cost rage. It could even be a passive if they are against the idea of a damaging ability that does not cost energy. Your first combo point generating attack on a new target generates 5 combo points. Also, increase max combo points to 6, but still only allow max 5 combo points used in a finisher. Currently, feral is the only energy based spec that wastes its resources when it crits at 4 combo points since all rogues take anticipation.

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Re: How would you rework Feral Druids?

Post by the_darklance » Thu Aug 27, 2015 5:23 pm

Been working on this for a while.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1nbj ... DcNbI4/pub

Let me know what you think.

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Re: How would you rework Feral Druids?

Post by Polihayse » Thu Aug 27, 2015 8:45 pm

I didn't read all of it yet, but I think you messed up blood frenzy's description. You used > instead of <. I'll read the rest when I'm not busy.

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Re: How would you rework Feral Druids?

Post by Polihayse » Sat Aug 29, 2015 4:49 am

Glyph of Dash – now also reduces the cd of savage roar by 30s
I assume you meant to say stampeding roar.
Lunar Inspiration – Multistrikes restore one energy and is unaffected by blood talons (should so slightly less damage than rake, for 2 target cleave and maybe st)
I assume this still gives you the ability to cast moonfire in cat form and the effects you described are effects of moonfire. Also, there are a few typos.
Wild Charge – Leap in cat form now ignore ground effects, CD raised to 20s
I don't think Wild Charge really needs a buff. There are many times where you are GCD capped and having a gap closer that doesn't cost a GCD makes a big difference. Just look at the video I posted before. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kSJeFoYd9_4 I don't waste a single gcd in the start of that fight because of Wild Charge.

I don't understand why you think Soul of the Forest is viable compared to Incarnation. From what I understand, the only difference with incarnation is that it does activate glyph of savage roar like it used to. I don't think this is enough to bring it in line with Soul of the Forest as it is. Basically, with Incarnation now you will have three less ferocious bites would most likely be unbuffed by a potion or a trinket proc, but still have great burst damage that lines up with your initial prepot and trinkets. With SOTF, you get about 120 extra energy per minute, but you also do less finishers because Incarnation effectively makes combo points cheaper by greatly increasing crit chance. You will be spending that energy on shreds most likely.
NEW!!! Feline Savagery – (Passive) Rake and shred always count as an attack from stealth when attacking a new target for the first time, these buffed attacks always grant 2 combo points. Additionally this effect has a 30s cd on targets already hit by an ability.
This passive ability seems like it would be difficult to track. How would this work on a 3 target cleave fight? If you were to cast rake on a target and then spread it with thrash, would that consume the feline savagery passive on the targets it was spread to? If not, then the best strategy would be to apply 1 rake and then spread it with thrash and then refresh rake on a different target to activate the double damage effect again. On a 3 target fight, you should be able to keep up a double damage rake up on all 3 targets for the entire fight. Can Swipe, Rip, and Ferocious Bite trigger this effect or only Rake and Shred?

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Re: How would you rework Feral Druids?

Post by teddabear » Sat Aug 29, 2015 10:48 pm

It's problematic brainstorming fixes without knowing their reasoning behind Feral's current state. It would have been tremendously easy to buff Thrash and Swipe enough to address the AoE problem. The PvP implications of buffing those 2 abilities is close to zero. Yet for some reason Blizzard refuses to do so and won't state why.

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Re: How would you rework Feral Druids?

Post by Bysket » Mon Aug 31, 2015 1:00 pm

Ok, this maybe far out in left field, but I was thinking while I'm plugging away at work here... When I think of Ferocious Bite, I think of something volatile that causes the targets wound to bleed. So, that said how viable would it be for FB to apply a debuff (for arguement sake we'll call it "Open Wounds.") This debuff could be multiplied per combo point something like up to 3% per combo point for (X) amount of time. This debuff would then increase fresh bleeds by each respective damage + debuff %age +/-modifiers (BT/Trinkets/Pots.) It doesn't necessarily have to be a debuff, this could also act as a proc. Could something like that help with our current short lived AoE burst type situation?

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Re: How would you rework Feral Druids?

Post by Ayleena » Mon Aug 31, 2015 4:48 pm

This sounds similar to our execute ability. I can't remember which tier, but we had a tier bonus that increased the range of our execute to 50%. Something like that in the form of a glyph would be pretty awesome.

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Re: How would you rework Feral Druids?

Post by Dysheki » Mon Aug 31, 2015 5:39 pm

It was 60% but I don't like that in the same vein I don't want SR baked in or envenom to reset SnD. Makes it too easy for a lot of the fight.

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