Soul Capicator

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Trikki
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Re: Soul Capicator

Post by Trikki » Fri Jul 31, 2015 3:40 pm

Dysheki wrote:I use mythic trigger for mythic gore fiend for fear of accidentally breaking people out.
It works for M Gorefiend, but you need to be very aware of your position relative to where people are left behind. Have a cancelaura ready for when you get linked and need to run (I caused a wipe this week because of this. I ran for link and didn't think to cancel it - blew up everyone).

Dominati
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Re: Soul Capicator

Post by Dominati » Sat Aug 01, 2015 12:48 am

Kojiyama wrote: How would you explode your ring into the capacitor on the pull? Capacitor nearly always triggers immediately on the pull and explodes 5s prior to the earliest the ring can go off?
If you're lucky enough to get back to back procs on pull you can explode the ring into the capacitor. Soul cap explodes into ring after 10secs, Spirit shift reactivates, 5secs later ring goes off, 5 secs after that soul cap goes off.

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Elamari
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Re: Soul Capicator

Post by Elamari » Sun Aug 23, 2015 8:36 pm

I just got this trinket last night and came here to see what the go is. I don't understand why I should be cancelling the buff in some situations.

Would anyone be able to give me a quick 2 mins overview / point me to the thread? Cheers.
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Dysheki
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Re: Soul Capicator

Post by Dysheki » Sun Aug 23, 2015 8:58 pm

While the buff is up you are literally doing 0 damage. When you explode and nothing is near you to explode on you have just wasted dps because the damage disappears. So if you have to run away from the boss you want to cancel the aura if you have a chance of it exploding on nothing.

fritzyboy
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Re: Soul Capicator

Post by fritzyboy » Thu Aug 27, 2015 1:38 pm

Sorry if this was covered somewhere else in the forums, but I have a question in regards to our opener with soul cap. Before the trinket I have always opened in stealth with a rake then incarnation, shred to 5 combo, tigers fury, rip then berserk. With the soul cap is it worth using incarnation pre-pull in order to save a global during the soul cap?

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Bluewulf
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Re: Soul Capicator

Post by Bluewulf » Thu Aug 27, 2015 1:49 pm

fritzyboy wrote:Sorry if this was covered somewhere else in the forums, but I have a question in regards to our opener with soul cap. Before the trinket I have always opened in stealth with a rake then incarnation, shred to 5 combo, tigers fury, rip then berserk. With the soul cap is it worth using incarnation pre-pull in order to save a global during the soul cap?
I don't know about anyone else, but I macro prepot and incarn and use it at 1
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Tinderhoof
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Re: Soul Capicator

Post by Tinderhoof » Thu Aug 27, 2015 1:52 pm

fritzyboy wrote:Sorry if this was covered somewhere else in the forums, but I have a question in regards to our opener with soul cap. Before the trinket I have always opened in stealth with a rake then incarnation, shred to 5 combo, tigers fury, rip then berserk. With the soul cap is it worth using incarnation pre-pull in order to save a global during the soul cap?
From the start of WoD this is what I have been doing. It's never worth risking missing your opening rake from stealth. Has nothing to do with Soul Cap.

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Bluewulf
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Re: Soul Capicator

Post by Bluewulf » Sat Aug 29, 2015 3:40 pm

So I understand on a fight like Socrethar when the dominator comes out and you get a soul proc you don't lose damage to the immunity the boss has during this period. But on a fight like Tyrant Velhari in the last phase she receives a shield of some sort that reduces the damage she takes while the add is up. (I think the add casts it?) Does soul cap lose damage here or does it redistribute it accordingly? I'd dig through logs but I figure someone most likely knows this.
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Polihayse
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Re: Soul Capicator

Post by Polihayse » Sun Aug 30, 2015 2:22 pm

Tinderhoof wrote:
fritzyboy wrote:Sorry if this was covered somewhere else in the forums, but I have a question in regards to our opener with soul cap. Before the trinket I have always opened in stealth with a rake then incarnation, shred to 5 combo, tigers fury, rip then berserk. With the soul cap is it worth using incarnation pre-pull in order to save a global during the soul cap?
From the start of WoD this is what I have been doing. It's never worth risking missing your opening rake from stealth. Has nothing to do with Soul Cap.
Opening with rake is much more consistent than it was at the start of WoD. It used to be that casting rake out of range would activate your auto attack and mess up your opener. I also think that they changed incarnation so that it can be used in stealth without breaking stealth. The only thing to be concerned about when opening with rake is getting parried by the boss. However, this applies to both openers. Most of the time I open with rake, but on fights like Fel Lord where I need to go soak before my cds are up I start in stealth with incarnation. RNG affects the outcome more than anything. Starting with rake gives a very small increased chance of avoiding energy starvation later on due to allowing you to use berserk one gcd later and starting with incarnation gives you very slightly better burst. It seems like it is mostly preference. If you start with incarnation and it tends to fall off while you are shredding to 5 combo points, you might consider starting with rake because it will give you that one extra incarantion shred.

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Re: Soul Capicator

Post by Xanzara » Mon Aug 31, 2015 7:25 am

How I tend to go about it is pre-incarnating if using the soul cap, and rake if not for the reasons Poli wrote above.

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Polihayse
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Re: Soul Capicator

Post by Polihayse » Mon Aug 31, 2015 3:18 pm

It also depends on when soul capacitor procs. Sometimes it does not proc until your 3rd gcd. In this case, starting with rake doesn't affect the burst from soul capacitor that much. You will still have the same number of rake ticks happening during it. If you start with rake, you will have one less gcd with your prepot during incarnation. Sometimes that gcd is a healing touch or ferocious bite/rip. If you start with incarnation, the last second of your potion will be on your finisher or the first shred after it. Most of the time you want to refresh rip there as a finisher though. Most of the time, if you start with rake, if you get to 5 cp with 3 gcds every time you should end on the first shred after a finisher. When you start with incarnation, ending incarnation on a healing touch or finisher seems to happen more often. If you are unlucky with crits in the opener, it is more likely that you won't fit in your fb than if you started with incarnation if the soul capacitor proc if it happens on the first gcd in combat. It is still pretty unlikely though. If you plan on using thrash at any time during your opener, I would definitely open with incarnation. Using thrash during the opener when starting with rake will almost definitely land your final seconds of incarnation on your healing touch or finisher.

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Re: Soul Capicator

Post by Bluewulf » Thu Sep 17, 2015 7:07 am

I've had a series of misfortunes lately in hfc with basically unforeseeable deaths. As much as I enjoy this trinket I really tend to rage when moments like this happen.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/W6 ... target=303

Soul cap procs, dominator comes up, explode on him. Tank loses aggro, add 1-shots me.
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eksdra
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Re: Soul Capicator

Post by eksdra » Thu Sep 17, 2015 12:06 pm

I've actually gotten killed a few times because of Soul Cap. Back to back procs on the pull with Incarn/Berserk + Ring leads to 2.5 million explosions and suddenly I'm tanking.

I've been using the weakaura for Soul Cap that shows stored damage, and I was wondering if someone could make an aura that would come up on screen if the stored damage was >= 90% of the mobs remaining health. I tried doing it myself, but it threw tons of errors.

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Re: Soul Capicator

Post by Kojiyama » Thu Sep 17, 2015 12:41 pm

I'm really surprised to hear about that type of thing. The current tank threat multipliers are so high relative to their damage that it seems really hard to even fathom pulling threat from the tank on the pull. Even on back-to-back procs with the ring and cooldowns I have never come close to pulling aggro off our Guardian tank during my opener.

I have had it happen with add spawns before though (Socrethar Dominator) just because it can potentially hit them before the tank has a chance to do anything about it.

If you're using the one I made and linked in the UI sub-forum, I could take a look at updating it with the target logic you mentioned. I tend to try to be more liberal, though, because Touch of Death + Execute stuff can make the final health on a boss go a lot faster than normal.
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eksdra
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Re: Soul Capicator

Post by eksdra » Thu Sep 17, 2015 4:24 pm

It happened to me a few times on Mythic HFA, with Siegemaster Mar'tak. Also once on Zakuun mid-fight.

Yeah, I've been using your WA from the UI section. I lost a lot of damage at the end of Tyrant because the boss died when I had 1s left on a proc. Maybe 75% to be safe?

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Re: Soul Capicator

Post by Kojiyama » Thu Sep 17, 2015 10:50 pm

I typically just pull the trigger if a boss gets down to sub-5m health. Sometimes earlier if the damage is more (e.g. Velhari due to the damage buff.)

Will take a look at this though the next time I'm in-game.
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Re: Soul Capicator

Post by RareBeast » Thu Sep 24, 2015 8:25 am

I've died many times to agro as well. I think it is usually the trinket into ring into trinket that gets me in trouble with a ~1.7Million hit.

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CowPond
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Re: Soul Capicator

Post by CowPond » Fri Sep 25, 2015 6:44 am

Here's a question for you. What's the max time you can let rip fall off to squeeze an extra FB in on soulcap proc for it to be worth it? Are variables in stats too great to make a general assumption? Obviously I don't ever want rip to fall off but I find myself in that situation on occasion.

eksdra
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Re: Soul Capicator

Post by eksdra » Fri Sep 25, 2015 10:05 am

CowPond wrote:Here's a question for you. What's the max time you can let rip fall off to squeeze an extra FB in on soulcap proc for it to be worth it? Are variables in stats too great to make a general assumption? Obviously I don't ever want rip to fall off but I find myself in that situation on occasion.
I typed up this big response, but the forums logged me out in between and it didn't save it. The gist of it is: you need back to back Soul Cap procs to rank really highly, so you should always play as if you'll get them. The best way to do maximum dps during a proc is to have all your dots running while you're in it and FB on top of that, so never let Rip fall off to do a FB.

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Re: Soul Capicator

Post by Dysheki » Fri Sep 25, 2015 10:30 am

Eh, I have what is currently a rank 16 without soul cap from a couple weeks ago (I've been helping with stomach people and I just can't risk it). So it's not absolutely needed, but preferable.

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aggixx
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Re: Soul Capicator

Post by aggixx » Fri Sep 25, 2015 7:53 pm

CowPond wrote:Here's a question for you. What's the max time you can let rip fall off to squeeze an extra FB in on soulcap proc for it to be worth it? Are variables in stats too great to make a general assumption? Obviously I don't ever want rip to fall off but I find myself in that situation on occasion.
It would depend on your mastery, crit, and your Soul Capacitor's item level. Here's a formulation to determine that answer:
http://wolfr.am/79PUy5iZ
This is assuming that Rip downtime you have wouldn't benefit from Soul Capacitor, otherwise the answer is slightly different.
x = maximum Rip downtime its worth losing (in seconds)
c = crit chance percent
m = mastery percent
s = soul capacitor damage bonus (the part over 100%)

and here's the one you can plug numbers into:
http://wolfr.am/79Q1l__z

For these values I plugged in:
40.63% crit
81.51% mastery
30.77% soul cap damage bonus (a 710 soul cap)

x = 5.3 seconds

This doesn't account for the energy opportunity cost (bite costs a bit more) so that would lower x a bit. Working on that part still but converting weapon dmg to AP dmg is less fun.
eksdra wrote:I typed up this big response, but the forums logged me out in between and it didn't save it. The gist of it is: you need back to back Soul Cap procs to rank really highly, so you should always play as if you'll get them. The best way to do maximum dps during a proc is to have all your dots running while you're in it and FB on top of that, so never let Rip fall off to do a FB.
Also true, although getting the highest possible rank isn't always (or shouldn't always be) the goal :)

You could also make an argument that putting all your eggs in one basket isn't always the best idea even if you are exclusively trying to rank. There are few people that have good enough ranks across all of the encounters to only be interested in gambling & getting the highest rank 1 parse.
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Re: Soul Capicator

Post by Kojiyama » Fri Sep 25, 2015 8:57 pm

Interesting... I have a MWF Soul Capacitor (very lucky, I know!) and lean a bit more Crit/MS than Mastery compared to your numbers so my value is significantly higher. Shows just shy of 8 seconds for my stats, although I need to mess around with my gear a bit to get more accurate numbers.

Didn't think it would be quite that high, but I haven't run numbers since I got my upgraded Capacitor. My gut was that eeking out a FB was generally worth it in most cases, though, since 37.44% is a lot. Might try to mess with the sims a little bit to test some more things.

Personally, I wouldn't ever count on getting back-to-back procs on the pull. It happens, but probably not frequently enough to be changing my rotation just in the case that it does. I also don't think you need back-to-back procs to rank really highly, unless you are talking about maybe the top 5 (or 10, depending on the fight) ranks or something. I'd actually say it's more important to get lucky with proc quantity than to specifically have back-to-back at the start of the fight--although, ideally, you would get both! ;)
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Re: Soul Capicator

Post by aggixx » Fri Sep 25, 2015 9:23 pm

Its not that high, the 20 energy opportunity cost adjusts it heavily. 20 energy is 270% weapon damage and (1+c)/2 combo points which is even more damage when it gets spent on a finisher (higher DPE than a shred so it converts to damage). Mucking about with it it seems to reduce x very close to 0 but trying to get an exact formula.
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Re: Soul Capicator

Post by Kojiyama » Fri Sep 25, 2015 9:43 pm

Isn't there a case to be made for the energy opportunity cost being pretty close to zero in some situations, though?

e.g. during your opener with Berserk and Seed, you are likely going to be GCD capped more than Energy capped for the first Soul Capacitor proc (and possibly the second as well.)
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Re: Soul Capicator

Post by aggixx » Fri Sep 25, 2015 10:00 pm

Yes, definitely. Talking about the general case though, it its up to the player to determine when they're encountering an exception to the rule and adapt to it.

Anyways, to account for the energy opportunity cost we need to calculate the damage of half a shred, and the damage from (1+c) combo points when it converts into a ferocious bite (by comparing its DPE to the DPE of a Shred). I'm going to ignore the fact that FB's DPE as a ratio to Shred's DPE increases as the player's crit increases (since then things get more complicated than is really necessary) and just assume its a fixed ratio. Also we need to assume a certain AP to weapon DPS ratio to determine the damage of a shred in this context since we're comparing everything % of AP.

Looking at BiS gear:
100% weapon damage = 38.85% of AP
Bite's DPE is 2410, Shred's DPE is 1060, so FB's net DPE/CP is (2410-1060)/5 = 270. Since you're going to bite with 50 energy each CP is worth 13,500 damage, which is equivalent to 182% of AP.

So the value of 20 energy is:
20/40 * ( 540% * 38.85% + 182% ) * ( 1 + c )

http://wolfr.am/79WFVE40

And then we get a result of x = 2.02 seconds (and about half that during Incarnation).
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