patch 6.2.2 feral buff thoughts?

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Polihayse
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Re: patch 6.2.2 feral buff thoughts?

Post by Polihayse » Mon Aug 24, 2015 5:02 pm

What do you think if they also changed our 2 set? Instead of it increasing max energy by 20 and increasing rate of clearcasting procs have it increase energy by 20 and increase rate of clearcasting procs based on current energy. So when you are at 10 energy, you have a higher chance of procing a clearcastings than at 80 energy. It would increase our scaling a tiny bit and improve the quality of gameplay by a little bit. It would probably help our aoe a tiny bit too.

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Re: patch 6.2.2 feral buff thoughts?

Post by Kojiyama » Mon Aug 24, 2015 5:32 pm

Not sure it would really lead to anything different for gameplay, realistically. You would still want to spam down to low energy to take advantage of the higher proc rate and if you want to maintain strong energy recoup from the set bonus you would need to ensure you stayed at low energy as much as possible.

This is functionally no different than our current optimal model with the 4pc, being that all finishers need to be used at minimal energy and you are incentivized to Shred spam down to nothing as aggressively as possible.

It would lead to fewer cases of getting fully energy-starved, but some starvation is intended (if not required) with an energy resource model.

If they wanted to push a pooling style of gameplay, it would be better to do something like increase your damage done based on current amount of energy or something. It seems that they have pushed the spammy gameplay in a concerted fashion, though, so it feels like that was their design direction.
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Re: patch 6.2.2 feral buff thoughts?

Post by Polihayse » Mon Aug 24, 2015 9:43 pm

Kojiyama wrote:Not sure it would really lead to anything different for gameplay, realistically. You would still want to spam down to low energy to take advantage of the higher proc rate and if you want to maintain strong energy recoup from the set bonus you would need to ensure you stayed at low energy as much as possible.

This is functionally no different than our current optimal model with the 4pc, being that all finishers need to be used at minimal energy and you are incentivized to Shred spam down to nothing as aggressively as possible.

It would lead to fewer cases of getting fully energy-starved, but some starvation is intended (if not required) with an energy resource model.

If they wanted to push a pooling style of gameplay, it would be better to do something like increase your damage done based on current amount of energy or something. It seems that they have pushed the spammy gameplay in a concerted fashion, though, so it feels like that was their design direction.
I mostly suggested it because feral design is in a pretty bad state anyway and there really isn't anything to lose. It wasn't intended for changing gameplay that much. Our set bonuses this expansion have been focused around increasing our energy regen. T17 2 piece did it in a great way. The energy gains were extremely predictable and we could pool energy effectively without capping. If you hit max energy with t17 you most likely did something wrong. The problem with the current set bonus is that it removes pooling and makes our energy gains very unstable such that we often have periods where our energy gained per second is extremely low and others where we are capped for a couple of seconds and there is nothing we can do about it. Even if on average it adds up to more energy gained throughout the fight, it is just annoying to have to deal with these dry spells of low energy and the wasted energy from the inevitable capping. The purpose of this change isn't to fix this problem, just reduce how often it happens.

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Re: patch 6.2.2 feral buff thoughts?

Post by teddabear » Tue Aug 25, 2015 12:12 am

I wish they would make Thrash bear only and turn Swipe into a real ability. At this point in the game needing a bleed on the target to do full damage is outdated.

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Re: patch 6.2.2 feral buff thoughts?

Post by Kojiyama » Tue Aug 25, 2015 10:29 am

IMO bonuses that increase energy regen are a bad path anyway.

They don't scale well because they only increase the portion of damage which is filler (Shred, primarily, with a few extra FBs) and have no implications on our DoT damage or scaling since it doesn't change our uptime. It devalues Mastery and further keeps the value of Haste even lower than it already was.

We don't have anything mechanically like Unstable Magic, so the extra Shred fillers are really nothing exciting and simply take away from our utility and flexibility.

Also, frankly, if they want us to have a higher baseline pace they should buff base Energy regen and not band-aid it with a set bonus when other classes get more interesting ones.

Perhaps someday if they get over their irrational stubbornness in maintaining Bleeds as basically the only mechanic in the game that doesn't scale with Haste properly, our baseline regen wouldn't be so bad.
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Re: patch 6.2.2 feral buff thoughts?

Post by fritzyboy » Fri Aug 28, 2015 1:01 pm

Have these buffs been reverted? I didn't see anything for feral in the latest 6.2.2 ptr.

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Re: patch 6.2.2 feral buff thoughts?

Post by Lynxx » Fri Aug 28, 2015 4:28 pm

Nope, they are still there. No reason for them to revert them really at this point. Progression race is done, PvP dmg stays basically the same, there just isn't a point. If anything I would see a hotfix buff even more once it goes live if anything.
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Re: patch 6.2.2 feral buff thoughts?

Post by teddabear » Sun Aug 30, 2015 9:27 am

I was looking at the numbers yesterday and Thrash could be buffed 50% and still be well below Rip and Rake. Imo that would be a rather nice fix. It would bring back a little complexity since Thrash should then be worth keeping up all the time and Feral would have almost respectable AoE. It would be a little like Unstable Magic, some free AoE you get just doing your normal rotation.

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Re: patch 6.2.2 feral buff thoughts?

Post by Polihayse » Sun Aug 30, 2015 1:58 pm

With the way energy regen is currently working it seems like keeping thrash up all the time without letting rip falling off would be nearly impossible. It does not matter how well you play. You need to get lucky and that isn't really complexity. Adding thrash to the rotation beyond simply using it at low energy with clearcasting would just add more rng that it doesn't really need. At this point I think the only change that would help short of a complete rework is buffing swipe.

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Re: patch 6.2.2 feral buff thoughts?

Post by Sashimi » Sun Aug 30, 2015 6:21 pm

so about 6-7% dmg increase anyone know ow much that is for dps?

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Re: patch 6.2.2 feral buff thoughts?

Post by Polihayse » Sun Aug 30, 2015 6:30 pm

Take what you do now and multiply it by 1.06 or 1.07 for a rough estimate.

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Re: patch 6.2.2 feral buff thoughts?

Post by Sashimi » Sun Aug 30, 2015 7:30 pm

Polihayse wrote:Take what you do now and multiply it by 1.06 or 1.07 for a rough estimate.
awesome ty

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Re: patch 6.2.2 feral buff thoughts?

Post by CowPond » Wed Sep 02, 2015 2:28 am

YAY I WASN'T 8th ON DPS TONIGHT!

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Re: patch 6.2.2 feral buff thoughts?

Post by xfr » Wed Sep 02, 2015 10:15 am

I think the boost is better in practice than on paper. On Mann & Archi it made a very significant difference (in the 10-15% range), and it improves the value of mastery.

Realistically the buff was the best we could have hoped for and it does help on the nasty add fights where feral was left behind.

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Re: patch 6.2.2 feral buff thoughts?

Post by Kojiyama » Wed Sep 02, 2015 11:29 am

Yeah, it was nice. I actually did feel reasonably competitive given my ilevel relative to the other people in the guild, e.g. I was actually neck-and-neck with our Arcane Mage and Affliction Warlock on Mythic Reaver. Was also very competitive on a number of fights like Kormrok, Socrethar, and Iskar where I was really struggling before.

Felt nice. Still 8th on Assault and a fair bit down on H Archimonde, but the DPS delta wasn't so much that I felt terrible about it.

Still some issues, but this is really the best solution we could probably hope for given all the factors.
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Re: patch 6.2.2 feral buff thoughts?

Post by Bluewulf » Wed Sep 02, 2015 4:44 pm

I was way stronger on fights like manno/archi. Have yet to do them mythic but I imagine it will be pretty similar, if not more of a gain. I didn't notice too much of a difference on some of the early fights but I'm sure that's just a matter of rng.
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Re: patch 6.2.2 feral buff thoughts?

Post by Tinderhoof » Wed Sep 02, 2015 5:17 pm

I felt much better in some fights. H Archi however was much worse for me than prior. After doing some M Archi progression everything on Heroic dies so fast that only doomcallers are worth bleeding much. Fell down much harder because our weakness is still our weakness and it was unchanged. Other folks just have more gear now.

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Re: patch 6.2.2 feral buff thoughts?

Post by Kojiyama » Thu Sep 03, 2015 12:42 am

Yeah, totally agree with that. I was doing 10-12k more DPS in a random heroic Archimonde pug helping someone than our guild run. Stuff just dies way too fast to be worth putting up a DoT on anything with fully geared folks.
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Re: patch 6.2.2 feral buff thoughts?

Post by Bysket » Thu Sep 03, 2015 3:41 pm

I noticed I did much better on mythic assault, but I still struggled to keep up with the mythic geared guild members. I recently joined this mythic guild, so I'm assuming it's just a gear / learning the mechanics issue. Or, I could be doing something totally wrong. I'm put on interrupt duty for Kilrogg, which is fine, I'm still too new of a member to fight for a vision position over the mage / rogue / warrior which are probably better to send down anyway.

Mythic council was amazing last night, it was the first time I've experienced fel rage... I can honestly say it scared the hell out of me because I thought I had done something wrong. Then I glanced at the meter and I was bursting out around 300k, felt like one of the big kids at the holiday dinner table!

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Re: patch 6.2.2 feral buff thoughts?

Post by Lynxx » Thu Sep 03, 2015 4:48 pm

My most noticeable improvements were on Kilrogg and Council. Not counting the few DPS that went down, I was giving our Sub Rogue a run for the money. Staying ahead of her for most of the fight, till melee was asked to help with bloods towards the end. I still ended up 2nd of non-buffed DPS. It felt good. Council, I was well ahead of both of the rogues and ended up in the top 5 on every single attempt.
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Re: patch 6.2.2 feral buff thoughts?

Post by cansr » Tue Sep 08, 2015 10:34 am

I've felt pretty good about feral, atleast in my sub100 us guild, after the updates. It deffinatly still didn't change much in refrence to our weakness(short lived adds) and honestly those are the only dps checks that I've ever seen our guild encounter. Suppose my guild's dps can step it up and make up for my dmg on adds that live under 15 seconds. I still love my feral and thankfully at my level no ones forcing me to swap spec, it's only internal guilt pressuring me; that I've been a rogue for 6 years and decided WoD was the time to switch it up.
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Re: patch 6.2.2 feral buff thoughts?

Post by Bluewulf » Tue Sep 08, 2015 6:43 pm

I think people underestimate what feral is capable of. We focus too much on the weakness. If the raid does its job well it minimizes what we do poorly, and allows us to take advantage of what we are good at. I am by no means saying we are stronger than some of the classes, but we absolutely have the potential to compete.
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Re: patch 6.2.2 feral buff thoughts?

Post by Polihayse » Tue Sep 08, 2015 6:47 pm

The people in my guild joke that feral did not need a buff now that I am able to consistently be in the top 5 even on fights that feral is considered weak at as well as be 5-15% ahead of the number 2 guy if I get lucky with soul capacitor on fights that feral is good at. I write it off as them not playing at their best since they are probably tired of farm bosses.

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Re: patch 6.2.2 feral buff thoughts?

Post by Kojiyama » Tue Sep 08, 2015 7:12 pm

Bluewulf wrote:I think people underestimate what feral is capable of. We focus too much on the weakness. If the raid does its job well it minimizes what we do poorly, and allows us to take advantage of what we are good at. I am by no means saying we are stronger than some of the classes, but we absolutely have the potential to compete.
Although I somewhat agree with you in principle (Feral has typically gotten a worse rap than it deserves this xpac) however there have been simply some undeniable and large problems with Feral especially in Mythic HFC progression.

The hotfix was absolutely needed in order to ensure Feral is at least competitive in standard damage situations.

As for your guild, Poli, I feel like you are totally correct in your stance. Frankly, you can't judge if a class needed a hotfix when you are comparing to, say, a top 5 parse in the class. That is literally as high as it gets. Like for your Iskar parse, I would more point to the fact that you only beat your Rogue by 3k and it was basically a rank 16 parse vs. a 29%/rank 700 parse. The fact that you weren't absolute miles ahead of people shows how weak the class is in those environments. You are just playing very optimally.

You had a rank 3 Gorefiend parse at 118k and a rank 3 Arcane parse would be almost 20k higher than that. Adjusting for population, the percentile ranks (rank 22) for Arcane are almost the same as yours... I don't see the problem. If you weren't consistently in the top 5 putting up top-10 parses, I'm not really sure how more than 20 Ferals would ever get a raid slot. :P

(Yes, slight hyperbole...but there's a reason our representation is so low in the later Mythic kills.)
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Re: patch 6.2.2 feral buff thoughts?

Post by Polihayse » Tue Sep 08, 2015 7:26 pm

The thing is, Kojiyama, is that they write off those high percentile ranks of mine because there are much fewer feral druid parses compared to other classes. I fixed the problem by simply not responding to them when they say 'Yeah feral really needed a buff...". Eventually they stopped bringing it up, but they still think they are right. Oh well.

Also, the fact that an arcane mage has the potential to do that much damage does not really mean that much. That happens 1 in 100 times. You need to look at what they do most of the time imo.

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