Has this ever happened to you?

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Polihayse
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Has this ever happened to you?

Post by Polihayse » Thu Sep 10, 2015 12:43 am


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Re: Has this ever happened to you?

Post by Polihayse » Thu Sep 10, 2015 12:59 am

Also, should a guardian druid start the fight by instantly growling and using faerie fire until the boss reaches him, or should he use faerie fire and save growl for after the boss reaches him? He insists that he needs to save growl or he will lose threat, but I don't know enough about guardian to tell if he is just being defensive because 'omg criticism'.

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Re: Has this ever happened to you?

Post by Kojiyama » Thu Sep 10, 2015 1:03 am

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/M7 ... iew=events

Looks like the only tank source there was FF from Zalance. Cocobutters got an Immolate on before the tank touched it and there was no Misdirection from a Hunter. Was maybe a little sketchy of a threat situation in general. Not sure why a Hunter wouldn't MD here exactly since it's a ranged pull. (All three of our Hunters were doing it for our tank on Xhul pulls tonight.)
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Re: Has this ever happened to you?

Post by Kojiyama » Thu Sep 10, 2015 1:05 am

Also, problem with relying on Growl after the FF is that it doesn't get applied until 1.8s which is 1.1s after your Rake and melee swing.
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Polihayse
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Re: Has this ever happened to you?

Post by Polihayse » Thu Sep 10, 2015 1:05 am

Why does that list look different from this one? https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/M7 ... iew=events

nvm. derp. I thought I was looking at them side by side, but they were the same link lol.

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Re: Has this ever happened to you?

Post by Kojiyama » Thu Sep 10, 2015 1:08 am

Just the Damage Done tab instead of Summary.
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Polihayse
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Re: Has this ever happened to you?

Post by Polihayse » Thu Sep 10, 2015 1:14 am

Do the hunters in my raid MD ever? Sorry. I don't know how to read logs very well and it will probably take me like 20 minutes to figure it out.

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Re: Has this ever happened to you?

Post by Kojiyama » Thu Sep 10, 2015 1:23 am

Very minimally, 4 times over all the boss fights (29 pulls) in those logs:
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/M7 ... lity=35079
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Polihayse
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Re: Has this ever happened to you?

Post by Polihayse » Thu Sep 10, 2015 1:48 am

Thanks.

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Re: Has this ever happened to you?

Post by Zarzul » Thu Sep 10, 2015 3:27 am

happen to me alot to, i guess range pull, and i think it is ok becoz boss move...

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Re: Has this ever happened to you?

Post by Bluewulf » Thu Sep 10, 2015 3:32 am

Happened to me last week. I blame hunters
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Re: Has this ever happened to you?

Post by Nephera » Thu Sep 10, 2015 5:31 am

When I do a ranged pull (sadly I have to play guardian now, since we lost a tank and I was basically the most useless dps in the group :c) I always use growl first since it makes other abilities you use on the target generate more threat for the next three seconds. It could help to use charge to close the cap and mangle quickly, and then get back on the right spot if there's still trouble. Your hunters, rogues should get into the habit of misdirecting tanks, on a pull like that it's very valuable. I only had a rogue pull higher threat on me after soul capacitor exploded and I didn't use berserk at start for some reason. There is no way you should die unless someone pulls before a tank - since you're in melee the boss will most likely switch to you (you need 110% threat of the first person to overaggro in melee range). My warrior co-tank usually does pulls like those and he never has any problems with aggro. Get those hunters to do their jobs!

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Polihayse
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Re: Has this ever happened to you?

Post by Polihayse » Thu Sep 10, 2015 3:08 pm

I was told that the bonus threat generated from growl was lost after the 3 seconds were up.

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Re: Has this ever happened to you?

Post by Tinderhoof » Thu Sep 10, 2015 3:22 pm

The required boss focus from Growl is gone after 3 seconds. Growl gives a % threat above the highest person. If all you have hit is Faerie Fire and a growl right after, you are getting a really terrible return as almost not threat has been generated yet.

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Re: Has this ever happened to you?

Post by Kojiyama » Thu Sep 10, 2015 3:35 pm

Growl does give a threat multiplier as well, so you'd want to pair it with some real threat-generating abilities to make the most out of it.
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Re: Has this ever happened to you?

Post by Polihayse » Thu Sep 10, 2015 4:28 pm

I think I have a solution to the problem. I told the druid tank that it was a threat problem and that the hunters and rogue were not misdirecting. I said that if there was ever a time for the hunters to md or the rogues to trick of the trade, then it was this fight. I asked him to ask the rogue to tricks him since the hunters seem to not like me for some reason. I initially talked to the hunters and they said that I attack 1 second before the pull and that they would need to attack 2 seconds before the pull to have the md work. They are just completely irrational. Anyway, I told the tank to ask the rogue,"Hey, can you tricks me so that Poli does not pull threat and die?" Hopefully, that will fix the problem. As you can see in the video, they are dead set on the idea that this is 100% my fault. I know it is partially my fault since I allowed their incompetence persist this long, but they should at least share some of the responsibility.

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Re: Has this ever happened to you?

Post by Dinosawr » Thu Sep 10, 2015 4:35 pm

It's really weird that your rogues and hunters aren't misdirecting on pretty much every pull, IMO. Ours spam it on any fresh pull, even trash. It doesn't take away from their DPS and makes things so much smoother.

You can clearly see that you're attacking after the countdown, there's even fire/frost balls flying towards the boss before you even touch it. There should have been misdirects out.

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Re: Has this ever happened to you?

Post by Nephera » Thu Sep 10, 2015 4:44 pm

That's why I'd recommend charging and mangling right away.

What you're saying is riddiculous, it shouldn't be your problem, it should be tank's problem. It's him that doesn't have enough threat, not you that has too much. I've seen my share of stupid hunters, but these seem to have won the first prize :D. I cannot imagine a situation like that in my guild, can't you take this to the raid leader?

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Re: Has this ever happened to you?

Post by Kojiyama » Thu Sep 10, 2015 5:05 pm

Yeah, MD seems like a no-brainer--especially on this pull since it is a ranged pull-back. Really no reason for Hunters to not MD at all.

Our Hunters all do it every single boss pull unless otherwise requested not to by the tank in a few rare situations.
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Re: Has this ever happened to you?

Post by Bazuny » Fri Sep 11, 2015 1:10 am

Happens all the freaking time. Some of the time when I pull aggro it will just take my health to 5%, but other fights I'm simply globaled.
Fortunately, I'm quite good friends with my tanks and I call them out, then they apologize for failing at holding threat from a DOT application...
Not even a high instant damaging ability. As to you, in my guild the aggro issue only happens to me. Somewhat curious about this feral curse.

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Re: Has this ever happened to you?

Post by Polihayse » Fri Sep 11, 2015 1:30 am

The tank's faerie fire hit for 7410 and my rake crit for 77044. The only solution to this without mds is to growl initially on the faerie fire. The tank was holding growl for a little bit in order to quickly build up his threat when the boss reached him. I'm not sure, but his reason for this could be that he needed to compensate for the lacks of misdirects, although, he did not give me any reasons and told me to trust him.

Say he growls the boss and instantly ffs after. Then he ffs again. His next ability is mangle. What if that mangle gets parried? Then he has very low threat and his growl has worn off so the boss can quickly attack a dps between gcds.

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Re: Has this ever happened to you?

Post by Bazuny » Fri Sep 11, 2015 2:56 am

As I understand it, tank's specializations (Thick hide, Blood Presence, Defensive stance, Sturdy Ox) give an extra 3% parry reduction;
meaning they have 0% chance to be parried or dodged against a mob up to 3 levels higher or boss type enemy.

So this issue feels like it is perhaps derived from tanks not having a very threat effective opener.

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Re: Has this ever happened to you?

Post by aggixx » Sat Sep 12, 2015 12:27 am

Yep, gonna have to go with tank/MD issue here. At the very least, either the tank taunts on pull or somebody MDs/tricks exactly at 0, if neither of those things are happening then its 100% somebody else's fault.

I don't really play bear but I have a very hard time believing that Growl, Faerie Fire, Faerie Fire, Mangle (all of that inside of Growl's window) and a MD/tricks somewhere in that time period would not reliably keep the boss on you. And if the MD/tricks doesn't happen then tank can easily (justifiably) shift the blame onto the hunters and rogues so there's really no reason for him not to do it, imo. Without a Growl, his Faerie Fire does pretty close to nothing threat-wise so he's rolling the dice on whether the MD he gets (assuming he gets it) is higher threat per second than anyone else in the raid *and* that it actually starts soon enough to keep anyone from getting killed, does not sound like a very safe bet to me.
Bazuny wrote:As I understand it, tank's specializations (Thick hide, Blood Presence, Defensive stance, Sturdy Ox) give an extra 3% parry reduction;
meaning they have 0% chance to be parried or dodged against a mob up to 3 levels higher or boss type enemy.
Yep, that's right.
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Re: Has this ever happened to you?

Post by Lynxx » Sat Sep 12, 2015 12:39 pm

This instant death has happened to me many times here recently. At one point on Arch, I didn't even get Rake off and I was instantly dead. I had hit the button but it never registered. We have two rogues and two hunters. I will go back over the logs and see if they are MD'ing. They should be, or at least I really hope so. I just marked it off to be being a fraction of a second early on my pull.
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Re: Has this ever happened to you?

Post by Kojiyama » Sat Sep 12, 2015 7:48 pm

I'm not really super-aggressive about pressing the button exactly on 0 or whatever (I can live with the ~0.1% or less DPS loss if it means I don't die...!) but usually this happens because someone else pre-pulls and I do something when I see the boss engage thinking it is the tank. Not hard to out-threat a random auto-shot or Immolate, so that leaves me pretty dead.

Then again, the last time this happened to me it turns out a Hunter was MDing to me on accident since he clicked on the wrong Druid when setting his focus target... lol
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