Blizzcon 2015 Discussion

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Terias
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Re: Blizzcon 2015 "Setting Expectations"

Post by Terias » Sun Nov 08, 2015 2:35 pm

There are still 7 rows of talents, they are just getting rid of most of the utility talents from the tree (maybe made baseline or baked into the class, maybe moved to pvp trees).

"There will be more impactful talents. Rogues have five rows with straight throughput improvements. Every spec has four or five rows of straight throughput improvements."
"Feral isn't seeing a ton of changes, but they are getting lots of new talents."

The above quotes are from the devs, which means trees will mostly be about picking how you do the role. Whether you want to focus on aoe, single target, etc - you'll be able to switch that up fight to fight.

They've said that instead of swapping specs, they want specs to swap talents for each fight now, no more moonkin for mass aoe and feral for single target - each (should) have talents for both.

So while our base mechanics won't change much, only 2 throughput rows in our talent trees means we're going to see a lot of cuts and a lot of new direction in how we deal damage.

That sounds like more than enough to fix druid problems, and the affinity role could bring back some fun druid utility.

Now the fun part, which rows are being cut? I'd say 30/45/75/90, don't think the 100 talents are going to survive either

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Re: Blizzcon 2015 Discussion

Post by Terias » Sun Nov 08, 2015 3:06 pm

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/19941175/

looks like we get our preview on weds

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Re: Blizzcon 2015 Discussion

Post by Tinderhoof » Sun Nov 08, 2015 3:35 pm

Ok on the train so I have some time to put my thoughts on paper, and answer a few questions.
AsgardFM wrote:In honour of your 2000th post on TFD, are you able to share the source of your knowledge? I guess you're not at Blizzard yourself but from the prophetic accuracy of information you appear with it must be someone fairly well involved with the class design team.
I have never at anytime been in the employee of or been affiliated with Blizzard Entertainment/Activision Blizzard.

As for the info I sometimes share I really can't talk any more specifics than I already do. Sorry.
Terias wrote:Sounds like there won't be many feral changes and they are removing heals (at least rejuv) from cat form.
This needs to be clarified. There aren't going to be many baseline mechanical changes. There is going to be a LOT of talent changes. These are what will drive how we play in different situations. In discussions I had this weekend were summed up like this:
"The same 4 buttons you push most now are the same 4 buttons we want you to keep pushing. Talent choices will determine When and How often you push them."
Terias wrote:Sounds like there won't be many feral changes and they are removing heals (at least rejuv) from cat form.
This was a sum up of what was said, but still a summery. My question was "In WoD we had a lot of healing related talents and abilities that ended up being not very useful. Will be continue to be pushed in the hybrid heals direction, or will we be moved back to a full DPS focus. The response was We think Feral is in a good place right now so there won't be a lot of changes. We didn't feel that healing worked out well. So things like Rejuv is form is gone. We still like PS game play so it is staying."
This tells me that they don't want an extra healing toolkit that has to be balanced around both PVE and PVP. By the time we left Highmaul our heals outside of PS were so weak it didn't really make it super compelling to use. The 90 tier only saw use in 2-3 fights the whole expac and that wasn't something they want to see.
Terias wrote:looks like they're dropping all non-core abilities for each spec of druids and you spec into an "affinity" and gain a passive effectiveness in that role (and the abilities that go with it) instead of just getting more powerful spells every 6 minutes
These talents choices will not be passive at all. They will be an active toolkit. This includes actually using that affinity's form.
ShmooDude wrote:Resto's getting something like HotW, wasn't really clear
He was talking about Mark of the Wild not Heart of the Wild. Old school Mark of the Wild gave different stat buffs. What was indicated was the ability to buff a specific target with more "something".
Kraineth wrote:My current thought on the affinity is that it's going to become the same thing that HotW became, useless for progression on the DPS specs. My personal hope would be that Affinity: Moonkin gives us starfall in the form of a Finisher but we'll see.
They expect us to use these abilities. They aren't a gimmick. It's actually using the form of the affinity not getting a finisher.
Zstriker wrote:guess an `Affinity talents` are something like HotW, but with more buttons you currently not have are becoming available to you when using talent that talent, think it even 1 talent for Balance 1 for Guardian and 1 Resto in 3 talent tier(HotW split on 3 spec)
Pretty sure it will be a while talent row. You get 3 talents which give you an affinity of one of the specs you are not. You can pick one.
Kraineth wrote:Moonkin Affinity cannot just be moonkin form+spells, what is the point of that for a cat? For resto/guardian that is fine, but not balance/feral.
The point is really to give us an effective tool. Why would the ability to hit a target which melee can't hit why would we not want to take advantage of that ability?

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Tinderhoof
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Re: Blizzcon 2015 Discussion

Post by Tinderhoof » Sun Nov 08, 2015 3:48 pm

I had a conversation which I asked the question Are Ferals still going to occupy the "Single Target" niche. The answer was "Yes....but you will bet getting some talents that will help in the areas you are deficient. One in specific for Burst AOE which has me excited. It will have Bloody in the talent name (no it's not a bleed spreader or a finisher). We will need to give something up to pick it, but I wasn't told what. Be on the lookout for it in the preview.

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Re: Blizzcon 2015 Discussion

Post by Minibubble » Sun Nov 08, 2015 4:25 pm

Druid Class Preview at Wednesday:

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Amitty
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Re: Blizzcon 2015 Discussion

Post by Amitty » Sun Nov 08, 2015 7:23 pm

Tinderhoof wrote:I had a conversation which I asked the question Are Ferals still going to occupy the "Single Target" niche. The answer was "Yes....but you will bet getting some talents that will help in the areas you are deficient. One in specific for Burst AOE which has me excited. It will have Bloody in the talent name (no it's not a bleed spreader or a finisher). We will need to give something up to pick it, but I wasn't told what. Be on the lookout for it in the preview.
I wonder what the plan about the talents is. I'm guessing that we'll have to trade either Bloodtalons or Incarnation for the AoE talent IF the Legion talents even resemble the current ones.

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Re: Blizzcon 2015 Discussion

Post by Kraineth » Sun Nov 08, 2015 8:06 pm

More useable talents are going to be a huge thing. And affinity being more rotational that HotW sounds good. Thanks for sharing Tinderhoof.

I'm glad that speccing for aoe/st/everything else is their current goal.

Now to wait for the hunter blog today to see just how good these class blogs are going to be

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Re: Blizzcon 2015 Discussion

Post by aggixx » Sun Nov 08, 2015 8:37 pm

Kraineth wrote:I'm glad that speccing for aoe/st/everything else is their current goal.
I'm not convinced that's the case, in the Wowhead Mumper interview he said they wanted to focus more on there being no right or wrong talents and it just being preference. Having talents with potent strengths in certain situations would pretty clearly violate that philosophy.
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Re: Blizzcon 2015 Discussion

Post by Kojiyama » Sun Nov 08, 2015 9:22 pm

I like the idea that they are going for with the talent revamp, but I'm a little skeptical. They originally went with 'similar' things on the same tier to allow players to choose utility and mobility talents of their preference rather than always defaulting to throughput talents as we did in the old talent trees.

As per Tinderhoof's example of being able to take all three mobility options but having to "give up a lot" it concerns me that we are simply returning to the older ways of unless a fight very specifically needs a niche utility talent, we will just default to damage/throughput talents. It also concerns me that it might make only one of the movement talents viable if it has the weakest alternatives on the same tier--e.g. I may prefer Displacer Beast over Feral Charge, but if it competes with something stronger than Feral Charge does, I may just be 'forced' to take Feral Charge because I give up less to use it.

Obviously will need to wait and see, but I never felt that the issue was so much redundant talents on the same tier and more that they made very little attempt to balance those options against eachother. I mean, what...they made a couple minor passes on the Incarnation tier that were never even close to enough to make the options viable, for example? Likewise, Lunar Inspiration was DoA with patch 6.2 and everyone knew it yet nothing was done.

Spreading the talents out keeps like talents from competing with each other in this fashion but it causes other issues of utility competing with throughput--which is a fight that throughput has historically always won.
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Re: Blizzcon 2015 Discussion

Post by Tinderhoof » Sun Nov 08, 2015 11:50 pm

aggixx wrote:
Kraineth wrote:I'm glad that speccing for aoe/st/everything else is their current goal.
I'm not convinced that's the case, in the Wowhead Mumper interview he said they wanted to focus more on there being no right or wrong talents and it just being preference. Having talents with potent strengths in certain situations would pretty clearly violate that philosophy.
I agree to a point. To make that goal possible it would be impossible to keep niches around. Knowing that we are still expected to be strong on Single target would contradict that goal. I think there is a general feeling that they want to have more choices with talents, but its not such a blanket philosophy.

They made several comments over the weekend that they expect/want people to be swapping talents every fight. One of the reasons talent swapping is free. It's having specific specs be better that they want to move away from. That is why they are going to make it VERY difficult to keep 2 spec weapons fully updated at the same time. They want you to be able to play the spec you enjoy.

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Re: Blizzcon 2015 Discussion

Post by Kojiyama » Mon Nov 09, 2015 12:32 am

I got the impression from the round table answers that keeping two spec weapons wouldn't be too miserable, but would start to get tricky if you expanded it out to 3+.

"It is pretty quick to get mostly caught up when switching specs. If you are trying to maintain off-specs you can do that to a certain degree. It only becomes a burden if you are trying to keep many specs all topped off at once."
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Re: Blizzcon 2015 Discussion

Post by Kraineth » Mon Nov 09, 2015 2:06 am

I'm not quite sure how the system is going to work.

If they have a weekly cap on artifact power, maintaining even 2 artifacts will be impossible because you would have to fall behind on your main spec as well.

And because they can't allow you to just max out the artifact in the first week, the only way I can think of that would work would be a weekly cap on the amount of artifact you can have in each weapon, and an unlimited amount of farmable artifact power. So you could farm up as much as you wanted, but you can't spend more than X amount each week per weapon.

Under that system it would just be a test of how much time you were willing to spend farming the artifact power each week.

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Re: Blizzcon 2015 Discussion

Post by Kojiyama » Mon Nov 09, 2015 3:32 am

The catch-up mechanic probably plays some kind of role. But, yeah, I'm interested to see how it actually works out.

Anything is bound to be better than the current legendary ring situation, anyway...
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Re: Blizzcon 2015 Discussion

Post by Whitepaw » Mon Nov 09, 2015 6:28 am

Looking forward to the affinity talents.

The trend from Vanilla until now has been to specialise us more - at the cost of our ability to do the other stuff we have tools for. In Vanilla, I could do a non-trivial amount of healing, while being specced as Feral. The same spec allowed me to tank adds, btw. Doing this stuff was rather unique for the class and it was even doable in Cata, albeit mostly as a bearcat.

Another trend has been to minimise the need for CC abilities in PvE. We needed it in TBC (which is still the pinnacle for 5 man instanced gameplay), but back then we didn't have the abilities. We got them in WotLK, but the gameplay was nerfed in both single player and 5 mans.

So these two trends have basically reduced the playing experience as a Feral to be able to deliver as much dps as possible. I get why some people like that; I mean, it plays right into the WoW community's premis of competing by numbers (basically, you compete against the other guys on the dps meters).

But in my opinion, it dumbs down the gameplay, in a quite literal way. The gameplay simply becomes that much simpler. Instead of having to manage several roles in combat, we can now focus on just one - the dps role.

However, we also only get measured by how well we perform that one role. So we do less AoE - bring a balance Druid instead! And that's just one example, at this time you could replace "balance Druid" in that sentence with most other classes and specs.

I would very much like Ferals to become quite good at taking care of several roles in every kind of gameplay in WoW. it should be meaningful and needed as a Feral to perform other roles besides doing dps. The affinity talents seem to point in that direction.

I would also like CC to be needed in PvE, as this would enhance the gameplay instead of the "pull shit and AoE it all down!" gameplay we have right now.

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Re: Blizzcon 2015 Discussion

Post by AsgardFM » Mon Nov 09, 2015 9:56 am

Whitepaw wrote:Looking forward to the affinity talents.

The trend from Vanilla until now has been to specialise us more - at the cost of our ability to do the other stuff we have tools for. In Vanilla, I could do a non-trivial amount of healing, while being specced as Feral. The same spec allowed me to tank adds, btw. Doing this stuff was rather unique for the class and it was even doable in Cata, albeit mostly as a bearcat.
<>
But in my opinion, it dumbs down the gameplay, in a quite literal way. The gameplay simply becomes that much simpler. Instead of having to manage several roles in combat, we can now focus on just one - the dps role.
Remember how other classes saw that Hybrid gameplay though. "If a Moonkin can bring 99% of a Mage's damage, yet also BR the tank and cast a clutch Tranqulity to survive heavy AoE then why bother with a Mage?" Not saying that view is true, just that it was the perception of hybrids. When faced with that situation Blizzard felt the easiest solution was to just remove the utility and keep the damage.

I am glad to see the idea of having a talent row dedicated to "multi-speccing". Should bring back the hybrid idea without people complaining that we do everything at once. Just remains to be seen how well balanced the Moonkin numbers will be. Viable without essential? Old HotW+Hurricane has me a little worried.

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Re: Blizzcon 2015 Discussion

Post by Asashdor » Mon Nov 09, 2015 10:07 am

While I do agreee with most of the concerns regarding our niche and the talent overhaul, I think many people did not realise what exactly Blizzard tries to achieve with with it. Talents are currently sorted by rows, i.e. level 15 talents are for mobility, level 30 talents are healing, and so on. With Legion Blizzard wants to put similar talents in the same column so you don't have to "choose" between one of three dps talents but between a dps talent, a mobility talent, and a cc talent for example.

Right now we have a talent layout like this:

Code: Select all

Feline Swiftness       Displacer Beast     Wild Charge
Soul of the Forest     Incarnation         Force of Nature
Lunar Inspiration      Bloodtalons         Claws of Shirvallah
While the first row leaves some room for personal preference, for high-end PvE our talents are pretty much set in stone for the other two rows (i.e. Incarnation and Bloodtalons).

In Legion those 9 talent could be arranged like this:

Code: Select all

Feline Swiftness     Soul of the Forest     Claws of Shirvallah
Wild Charge          Incarnation            Bloodtalons
Displacer Beast      Force of Nature        Lunar Inspiration
Suddenly there is much more choice and you have to think about what talent to take.
Let's take the first row: Do you need to move a lot? Take Feline Swiftness. Lots of target switches? Take Soul of the Forest for more energy to rake everything. More utility/raid support? Take Claws of Shirvallah.
Second row: At Gorefiend, Incarnation would be king. At Zakuun, Bloodtalons could be stronger. At High Council, Wild Charge could be amazing if you're allowed to multi-dot.

Please remember that I've just used 9 of our current talents to demonstrate what Blizzard tries to achieve with talents in Legion. Most likely the majority of those talents won't exist in Legion or will be changed massively but it should be a decent overview of the general idea.

Of course, you could just take 5 pure dps talents and ignore all movement, energy regen oder utility talents, but for how many bosses would that be optimal if Blizzard somehow manages to balance out all talents?
At one of the Q&A sessions they've said that as a fury warrior you only have a few rotational abilites but can add up to 5 more through talents if you feel that your play style is too easy. You won't have to though as there should be other comparable alternatives (like passives, long cooldowns, etc.) if you don't want to manage ~10 rotational abilites.

If you take the hunter class preview as a rough guideline we most likely won't see much about our talents on the druid preview as they've only shown one of the talents per spec so I'd say we'll have to wait until beta to know more details about specific talents.

I'm really curious about the affinity row though as that sounds like pretty great but also ptentially controversial idea. On one hand it's amazing to get back to being a hybrid but on the other hand we'll only be a two-spec hybrid because Blizzards wants to remove even more abilites from other specs.
For balance druids with resto affinity (or vice versa) that could be even worse - why even have cat and bear form if you don't have "any" abilites to use?

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Re: Blizzcon 2015 Discussion

Post by Whitepaw » Mon Nov 09, 2015 11:04 am

AsgardFM wrote:
Whitepaw wrote:Looking forward to the affinity talents.

The trend from Vanilla until now has been to specialise us more - at the cost of our ability to do the other stuff we have tools for. In Vanilla, I could do a non-trivial amount of healing, while being specced as Feral. The same spec allowed me to tank adds, btw. Doing this stuff was rather unique for the class and it was even doable in Cata, albeit mostly as a bearcat.
<>
But in my opinion, it dumbs down the gameplay, in a quite literal way. The gameplay simply becomes that much simpler. Instead of having to manage several roles in combat, we can now focus on just one - the dps role.
Remember how other classes saw that Hybrid gameplay though. "If a Moonkin can bring 99% of a Mage's damage, yet also BR the tank and cast a clutch Tranqulity to survive heavy AoE then why bother with a Mage?" Not saying that view is true, just that it was the perception of hybrids. When faced with that situation Blizzard felt the easiest solution was to just remove the utility and keep the damage.

I am glad to see the idea of having a talent row dedicated to "multi-speccing". Should bring back the hybrid idea without people complaining that we do everything at once. Just remains to be seen how well balanced the Moonkin numbers will be. Viable without essential? Old HotW+Hurricane has me a little worried.
Yep, I do remember the argument against hybrids - and then the hybrid tax etc. The problem is the gameplay in PvE right now. At the very top in progression raiding, survivability is extremely important - but in the big middle group (where I am, together with most other WoW players), it's a lot about raw damage and healing output. The fact that CC and most other utility is not really needed just emphasises the dps/hps race even more.

Imagine gameplay where CC would be necessary. Yes, f*cking mandatory, even! So we would NEED an offtank - or some kind of CC spell - to stem the adds and control the encounter. The problem with this kind of gameplay is that it requires coordination and focus, which most PuG's can't deliver. But when we had it back in Vanilla/TBC, it kept us on our toes. Without the threat of failing, is WoW really a game? Other scenarios where extra healing or dps during an encounter would be mandatory could also be imagined. Fx, what if boss fights had mini-enrage timers built into the encounter? In some of these intervals, extra healing would be required - in others, extra dps."But then, hybrid raid spots would be mandatory!" - yes, exactly! You could then opt to make the "pure" dps classes better at CC'ing.

I know this is thinking outside the reigning paradigme of PvE gameplay, as it stands today. I also think it's necessary to move the game forward.

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Re: Blizzcon 2015 Discussion

Post by Bluewulf » Mon Nov 09, 2015 11:07 am

Asashdor wrote:While I do agreee with most of the concerns regarding our niche and the talent overhaul, I think many people did not realise what exactly Blizzard tries to achieve with with it. Talents are currently sorted by rows, i.e. level 15 talents are for mobility, level 30 talents are healing, and so on. With Legion Blizzard wants to put similar talents in the same column so you don't have to "choose" between one of three dps talents but between a dps talent, a mobility talent, and a cc talent for example.

Right now we have a talent layout like this:

Code: Select all

Feline Swiftness       Displacer Beast     Wild Charge
Soul of the Forest     Incarnation         Force of Nature
Lunar Inspiration      Bloodtalons         Claws of Shirvallah
While the first row leaves some room for personal preference, for high-end PvE our talents are pretty much set in stone for the other two rows (i.e. Incarnation and Bloodtalons).

In Legion those 9 talent could be arranged like this:

Code: Select all

Feline Swiftness     Soul of the Forest     Claws of Shirvallah
Wild Charge          Incarnation            Bloodtalons
Displacer Beast      Force of Nature        Lunar Inspiration
Suddenly there is much more choice and you have to think about what talent to take.
Let's take the first row: Do you need to move a lot? Take Feline Swiftness. Lots of target switches? Take Soul of the Forest for more energy to rake everything. More utility/raid support? Take Claws of Shirvallah.
Second row: At Gorefiend, Incarnation would be king. At Zakuun, Bloodtalons could be stronger. At High Council, Wild Charge could be amazing if you're allowed to multi-dot.

Please remember that I've just used 9 of our current talents to demonstrate what Blizzard tries to achieve with talents in Legion. Most likely the majority of those talents won't exist in Legion or will be changed massively but it should be a decent overview of the general idea.

Of course, you could just take 5 pure dps talents and ignore all movement, energy regen oder utility talents, but for how many bosses would that be optimal if Blizzard somehow manages to balance out all talents?
At one of the Q&A sessions they've said that as a fury warrior you only have a few rotational abilites but can add up to 5 more through talents if you feel that your play style is too easy. You won't have to though as there should be other comparable alternatives (like passives, long cooldowns, etc.) if you don't want to manage ~10 rotational abilites.

If you take the hunter class preview as a rough guideline we most likely won't see much about our talents on the druid preview as they've only shown one of the talents per spec so I'd say we'll have to wait until beta to know more details about specific talents.

I'm really curious about the affinity row though as that sounds like pretty great but also ptentially controversial idea. On one hand it's amazing to get back to being a hybrid but on the other hand we'll only be a two-spec hybrid because Blizzards wants to remove even more abilites from other specs.
For balance druids with resto affinity (or vice versa) that could be even worse - why even have cat and bear form if you don't have "any" abilites to use?

If they are sorted in a similar fashion 99% of the time we would just take the highest dps talents and we'd be in another situation where we almost never change a talent. If these were my options currently or even new, reworked talents I'd still run the dps talents for every single fight in HFC and ignore movement bonuses. It seems like it would be really hard to balance around one talent that does x% more damage and another that gives you x% more movement speed. Unless were at a track meet the damage seems like it will always win, unless some mechanic is unavoidable at base movement speed, which hasn't been the case.

Moving to the hybrid topic, am I the only one who doesn't want us to become more entwined with the other specs? I want to be a feral, not disillusioned that I am entitled to some other magical properties that my class has to offer. I do not need healing, spell casting or tanking capabilities to be fulfilled as a feral druid. If anything, I feel it clouds our identity and lessens the immersion of becoming a great cat beast. Any additional aspects we receive outside our spec identity will likely warrant those to say things like, "Well they can already heal too, why can they do as much damage as us?".
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Re: Blizzcon 2015 Discussion

Post by claircy » Mon Nov 09, 2015 12:01 pm

Bluewulf wrote: Moving to the hybrid topic, am I the only one who doesn't want us to become more entwined with the other specs? I want to be a feral, not disillusioned that I am entitled to some other magical properties that my class has to offer. I do not need healing, spell casting or tanking capabilities to be fulfilled as a feral druid. If anything, I feel it clouds our identity and lessens the immersion of becoming a great cat beast. Any additional aspects we receive outside our spec identity will likely warrant those to say things like, "Well they can already heal too, why can they do as much damage as us?".
I'm with you on that, when I first read about the affinity stuff I started to think about what in the world this would mean to ferals to begin with. I would prefer being in my fancy artifact kitty form 100% of the time and doing things that is unique for ferals, which is what I enjoy, instead of shapeshifting to other specs and do what they have is unique just because that's what would be the most viable or strongest for a boss fight. I also wonder how the artifact weapon will work with this affinity talent, if it only affects our abilities as a kitty (making the other affinity talents a weaker choice to shapeshift to the more upgraded it becomes) or if it would affect all which wouldn't really make any sense at all to me. And if they made the shapeshifting to different forms more op than the spec we chose then....that would be really weird. Unless it would be on a cooldown, I guess.

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Re: Blizzcon 2015 Discussion

Post by AsgardFM » Mon Nov 09, 2015 2:49 pm

I understand the idea of Affinity when it comes to tanking or healing but less so when for Balance (assuming Feral as main, of course). If it aims at replacing HotW then it's a more advanced version, select this talent to gain Savage Defence or Tranqulity (for example). That leads to no real change in how you'd utilise it, a backup in case of tank death or healer disconnect. But unless you have a very melee heavy raid and need a bit of burst on ranged adds I struggle to see Affinity:Moonkin being selected.
For the identity crisis, I don't exactly mind having the option to heal or throw a taunt at one of Archi's Infernals. It's a lot of the reason that I prefer Feral over Rogue, having these extra tools is a good bonus and enhances identity as a Druid, not just as a Feral.
I can only hope that we misinterpreted Blizzard's talent designs though. Unless fights will require that everyone has at least one survivability or movement talent then players will naturally gravitate to "take ALL the DPS talents" and blame healers when it goes wrong.

The CC question is a bit harder to deal with though, especially in smaller groups. Shattered Halls being a frequent example, if you were a DPS that did not have CC you struggled to get invited. Would a return to that style require everyone to have a CC or just half of DPS specs? I raid in a fairly small team (between 12-14 people) and already struggle a little with melee/ranged split and a further DoT/Burst split in that. If it suddenly turns out that Hunters, Rogues, Warlocks and Mages are the only DPS to get this CC option then we'd only have 3 people to carry it out. A raid encounter requires 5 mobs controlled? Well, shit.
Is it a rare example? Yes, but I doubt we'd the the only ones affected, especially if you look it in raids that don't have as many Hybrids to return the healing power. Blizzard has been trying to lean the other way when it comes to class requirements - opening up options rather than closing them down.

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Re: Blizzcon 2015 Discussion

Post by Kojiyama » Mon Nov 09, 2015 4:28 pm

I like the idea of Affinity because I'm an old-school Vanilla Druid that fondly remembers actually swapping between Bear, Cat, and Caster Forms regularly in normal gameplay. Although being Cat 100% of the time has some appeal, it basically pigeon-holes us into 'Rogue-lite' whereas the Affinity concept could really move the spec in a very unique direction.

As much as I feel like the Moonkin form is fugly as hell (but, hey, new glyph system probably means we can Glyph of the Stars without any trade-off!) there is certainly no doubt in my mind that having the flexibility to go pewpew ranged or Starfall on certain fights could mean great things for our spec.

For example, if we could go Moonkin Form mid-fight there would be a chance to actually stay Feral for Blackhand progression and be significantly more effective for the majority of the fight (because Feral actually rocked Blackhand pretty hard for pure boss damage) since I could still swap forms and Starfall the balconies. Or think about Kormrok being able to Starfall the hands but still be Feral for Pillars? Some really interesting possibilities there.

Having true off-tanking capabilities could also be pretty awesome.
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Re: Blizzcon 2015 Discussion

Post by Whitepaw » Mon Nov 09, 2015 5:26 pm

Kojiyama wrote:I like the idea of Affinity because I'm an old-school Vanilla Druid that fondly remembers actually swapping between Bear, Cat, and Caster Forms regularly in normal gameplay. Although being Cat 100% of the time has some appeal, it basically pigeon-holes us into 'Rogue-lite' whereas the Affinity concept could really move the spec in a very unique direction.

As much as I feel like the Moonkin form is fugly as hell (but, hey, new glyph system probably means we can Glyph of the Stars without any trade-off!) there is certainly no doubt in my mind that having the flexibility to go pewpew ranged or Starfall on certain fights could mean great things for our spec.

For example, if we could go Moonkin Form mid-fight there would be a chance to actually stay Feral for Blackhand progression and be significantly more effective for the majority of the fight (because Feral actually rocked Blackhand pretty hard for pure boss damage) since I could still swap forms and Starfall the balconies. Or think about Kormrok being able to Starfall the hands but still be Feral for Pillars? Some really interesting possibilities there.

Having true off-tanking capabilities could also be pretty awesome.
^ This

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aggixx
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Re: Blizzcon 2015 Discussion

Post by aggixx » Tue Nov 10, 2015 12:58 am

Asashdor wrote:Right now we have a talent layout like this:

In Legion those 9 talent could be arranged like this:

Suddenly there is much more choice and you have to think about what talent to take.
Let's take the first row: Do you need to move a lot? Take Feline Swiftness. Lots of target switches? Take Soul of the Forest for more energy to rake everything. More utility/raid support? Take Claws of Shirvallah.
Second row: At Gorefiend, Incarnation would be king. At Zakuun, Bloodtalons could be stronger. At High Council, Wild Charge could be amazing if you're allowed to multi-dot.
I think there's a lot less choice than there may seem at first glance. You can make any arbitrary configuration of talents and there will seem to be more choice, more options to think about, but it's largely because those choices haven't been regularly discussed and dissected like the current talents have.
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Re: Blizzcon 2015 Discussion

Post by Asashdor » Tue Nov 10, 2015 5:12 am

Sure, I do agree with that.
Perhaps "choice" might not have been the best word to use, because in the end you'll always be limited to using the optimal talents for each boss but there is a possibility of using different talents for different bosses which would be a big improvement from our current "always use Incarnation & Bloodtalons". Of course, this always depends on balancing and encounter design and it's not guaranteed that Blizzard will hit the perfect spot there - especially with 36 different specs in the game.
The best (and only) example during WoD would be Iron Maidens: If I recall correctly LI was a bit stronger if could tunnel the bosses but if you had to go to the boat, you'd rather use Bloodtalons. While the difference was really small and probably not even important you at least had some kind of "choice". If they'd manage something like that for more than one boss it would definitely be a lot better than it is currently.
Bluewulf wrote:If they are sorted in a similar fashion 99% of the time we would just take the highest dps talents and we'd be in another situation where we almost never change a talent. If these were my options currently or even new, reworked talents I'd still run the dps talents for every single fight in HFC and ignore movement bonuses. It seems like it would be really hard to balance around one talent that does x% more damage and another that gives you x% more movement speed. Unless were at a track meet the damage seems like it will always win, unless some mechanic is unavoidable at base movement speed, which hasn't been the case.
Yes, you could do that - that's something Blizzard themselves acknowledged during the Q&A regarding fury warriors: Take 5 additional rotational abilites and ignore everything else. Using my arbitrary examples this would probably be the most likely outcome.
But as I already mentioned, we don't know anything about the new talents aside from the planned affinity tier. Many of the current ones will be gone and I'm sure most of the remaining talents will be changed so I had to pick a few of our current (practically nonexistant) "choices" to demonstrate my point.
In the end this always depends on balancing and encounter design (which we'll obviously won't know anything about for at least a couple months).

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Re: Blizzcon 2015 Discussion

Post by Polihayse » Tue Nov 10, 2015 9:44 am

aggixx wrote:
Kraineth wrote:I'm glad that speccing for aoe/st/everything else is their current goal.
I'm not convinced that's the case, in the Wowhead Mumper interview he said they wanted to focus more on there being no right or wrong talents and it just being preference. Having talents with potent strengths in certain situations would pretty clearly violate that philosophy.
Does that mean that we will see more alternate playstyle type talents like Lunar Inspiration?

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