Blizzcon 2015 Discussion

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physcx
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Re: Blizzcon 2015 Discussion

Post by physcx » Tue Nov 10, 2015 11:14 am

Tinderhoof wrote:They made several comments over the weekend that they expect/want people to be swapping talents every fight. One of the reasons talent swapping is free. It's having specific specs be better that they want to move away from. That is why they are going to make it VERY difficult to keep 2 spec weapons fully updated at the same time. They want you to be able to play the spec you enjoy.
I wish they would actually follow through with this because having pure dps classes hot swap to the perfect spec for every progression boss made it impossible to compete. In Legion with there supposedly being so much selection in talents it would be even worse if classes with 3 dps specs to choose from + unique talents.
Tinderhoof wrote:The response was We think Feral is in a good place right....
That is depressing on so many levels. We are 25% behind single target dps classes like rogues, mages, and locks on short duration fights (so all the single target ones...) because we get nearly nothing from lust. We have no notable aoe to talk about and our target swap burst is one of the worst and our raid utility compared to other melee (cheat death mechanic cheese / death grip) is lackluster and brought by ranged. We quite literally excel at nothing that is important to progression right now. We are mid pack ST, we suck at AoE burst, we suck at priority add burst, our raid util was brought by others and our b-rezes ruin our dps rotation and has a cast time. High end raiding is world of metercraft. You are doing manno and archi near 721 ilvl and 723 ilvl and your rings are barely charged up and the guild is going to bring exactly the classes it wants to bring to win and feral has been such shit this entire expansion that I'm amazed I even got to come to any of the fights. /rage /rant /arhhshghhshghghhga;sllhgl /warmingupthebenchinplaceof3roguesand2dks

I'm looking forward to legion in that it marks the end of the shittiest feral expansion since the hybrid tax but if we're not at least abetter option than just bringing a 3rd rogue or a 3rd demon hunter next expan I'm just done with the game. Perhaps I'll pick up learning Korean and getting my SC2 on or something I dunno.

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Re: Blizzcon 2015 Discussion

Post by Tinderhoof » Tue Nov 10, 2015 12:29 pm

How do you think I felt? My Raid Leader was standing right behind me. When that got said I turned to him and said what do you think about that. He was real uncomfortable.

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Re: Blizzcon 2015 Discussion

Post by physcx » Tue Nov 10, 2015 2:11 pm

Perhaps our voice is simply not that loud as we aren't a very highly represented class in mythic raiding but if the balance team thinks this expansion feral was in an OK place they need an eye opening. If legion beta is nearing an end and they're isn't a very obvious case to make for bringing a feral over a 2nd or 3rd of another melee spec we need to get LOUD or else we'll just get shafted again because this expansion was brutal and I'm just not interested in having to fight tooth and nail to justify a raid spot using only superior mechanical play if our numbers and utility just aren't there. You can't have shittier utility and shittier dmg than another melee class at the same time or else they'll just bring 2 or even 3 of the better class every single time.

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Re: Blizzcon 2015 Discussion

Post by Nayni » Tue Nov 10, 2015 2:32 pm

I've personally given up on the hopes, I've also rerolled to rogue a while back to finish up progression so I'm not really attached to feral anymore.

I don't know what Blizzard's view on Feral is anymore and I just stopped caring about it as well. This expansion has been a terrible experience as Feral, pretty much from start to finish. I'm almost convinced that Feral is one of the specs they actually want to be removed from the game (something they hinted at a while ago without saying any classes in specific). It's had nothing but balanced issues this expansion, sadly the wrong kind of balance where we take the short end of the stick and are just useless when it comes to progression raiding.

Both the response Tinderhoof has gotten and the fact that on the first class-change slide the presentor said "Well Arcane mage just doesn't feel strong when you play it" just made me give up hope already for class balancing in Legion. ***Removed*** Frustration is ok, but lets reign it in a little ok?
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Re: Blizzcon 2015 Discussion

Post by Tinderhoof » Tue Nov 10, 2015 2:33 pm

You don't have to tell me, cause I lived through it too. What I think they meant was "mechanically" we are in a good place. This is true. Our abilities flow well, and for our ST niche it works (2-3 target cleave as well). At this point numbers aren't important and so they aren't a focus. Now as I said above we are getting some talent help on the burst AoE front, but it was made clear that ST is still going to be our wheelhouse. I just hope this time we get to stay in that wheelhouse and not have to keep being buffed every tier just to stay middle of the pack.

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Re: Blizzcon 2015 Discussion

Post by Kraineth » Tue Nov 10, 2015 2:49 pm

You can chalk that gap up mostly to the ring synergy that other top specs have though.

We still do pretty well on Reaver/Gorefiend/Council/Xhul/Tyrant in terms of overall DPS, and all of those are fights with specific timings on the ring usage rather than using it on cooldown. Granted we still aren't the strongest on those, but even with proper timing, a class with short burst CDs is going to beat us when our cooldowns are 30+ seconds long.

But overall I think it is hard to deny that the feral "class fantasy" is in a good spot, and that is really all they were addressing at the convention and in these blogs.

Patiently awaiting tomorrow's blog, hoping to see % damage increases to bleeding targets removed, and hopefully some good information on the affinity talents.

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Re: Blizzcon 2015 Discussion

Post by Polihayse » Tue Nov 10, 2015 4:57 pm

I honestly don't see the problems with feral that most people seem to think it has. Every time I see complaints about something like our single target damage it looks completely exaggerated. The biggest issue I have with it currently is the design due to set bonuses and just energy gains in general, but the damage balancing doesn't seem like a problem to me. I am usually near the top on every single fight in my guild and I have incredible survivability and mobility.

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Re: Blizzcon 2015 Discussion

Post by ShmooDude » Tue Nov 10, 2015 5:47 pm

Tinderhoof wrote:You don't have to tell me, cause I lived through it too. What I think they meant was "mechanically" we are in a good place. This is true. Our abilities flow well, and for our ST niche it works (2-3 target cleave as well). At this point numbers aren't important and so they aren't a focus. Now as I said above we are getting some talent help on the burst AoE front, but it was made clear that ST is still going to be our wheelhouse. I just hope this time we get to stay in that wheelhouse and not have to keep being buffed every tier just to stay middle of the pack.
Personally, I don't think its "true" at all. If you look purely from a boss DPS rotation stand point I suppose but the problem with us being a ST niche is that it greatly contrasts to us being a dot based class. By being a dot based class with the niche of ST means we're going to be horrible for short lived adds (short of a specific mechanic to boost us on short lived adds). Its frankly just a niche that doesn't mesh well with our core abilities. Being good at boss damage is all well and good, but there's almost always better options that are more flexible in how they deal damage. Especially on pure classes that can switch between specs (we'll see if the whole artifact thing hinders this, I doubt it).

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Re: Blizzcon 2015 Discussion

Post by physcx » Tue Nov 10, 2015 6:02 pm

Polihayse wrote:I honestly don't see the problems with feral that most people seem to think it has. Every time I see complaints about something like our single target damage it looks completely exaggerated. The biggest issue I have with it currently is the design due to set bonuses and just energy gains in general, but the damage balancing doesn't seem like a problem to me. I am usually near the top on every single fight in my guild and I have incredible survivability and mobility.
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/G2 ... amage-done

That was a world 1 feral parse at the time, just you know doing that fight that is our niche and only 35k dps behind mages who also btw soak entire waves on that fight for massive utility bonus there. So yea world 1 feral parse and 10th on the meters out of 14 for a fight with exactly 1 target. Or the 3 rogues all with 18k-22k ahead. If classes are 10% apart I'd call that poor balancing. The fact that they are 15%+ differences and bring enormous utility over us (cloak / cheat death / smoke bomb) makes us practically obsolete. If you have the roars from boomkin and resto and you have 3 rogues and a feral why would you bring a feral over 3 rogues ever? And those mage/rogue/lock classes can swap things around to be absolute monsters in aoe encounters as well. If you are topping meters on fights in your guild there is a real chance some of them are not playing at the same level you are.

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Re: Blizzcon 2015 Discussion

Post by Tinderhoof » Tue Nov 10, 2015 7:46 pm

ShmooDude wrote:(short of a specific mechanic to boost us on short lived adds).
Please actually read through the thread before making comments like this.

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Re: Blizzcon 2015 Discussion

Post by aggixx » Tue Nov 10, 2015 8:00 pm

Polihayse wrote:I honestly don't see the problems with feral that most people seem to think it has. Every time I see complaints about something like our single target damage it looks completely exaggerated. The biggest issue I have with it currently is the design due to set bonuses and just energy gains in general, but the damage balancing doesn't seem like a problem to me. I am usually near the top on every single fight in my guild and I have incredible survivability and mobility.
Pretty sure you're playing at a higher level than the majority of your guild members if that is your perspective. In my guild I usually chill in the middle-lower part of the pack on most fights (some exceptions, like Tyrant and Council depending how aggressive you are multi-dotting, but still never first). I do have a slightly behind ring but my parses are very respectable for only a couple weeks of parses and focusing on trial things instead of ranking.

When you're just looking at total DPS (and you can exclude pad targets if you want) feral is just ok, I would hesitate to call it average. Especially when you look at our ability on priority targets impressions do not get any better, which is a big problem on progression but not so much on farm. I think (at a very high level) saying feral does not need buffs is not entirely unreasonable, but when other specs around our caliber in dealing damage are all getting buffed in 6.2.3 (DKs, Moonkins, Ret) and we are not it is borderline insulting.
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Re: Blizzcon 2015 Discussion

Post by imverykind » Tue Nov 10, 2015 8:31 pm

Off topic, we will get Debuff tracker on top of the nameplates, like tidyplates.
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We're experimenting with ways to show some debuffs (such as DoTs) on nameplates. Beta feedback will be invaluable!

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Re: Blizzcon 2015 Discussion

Post by ShmooDude » Tue Nov 10, 2015 9:02 pm

Tinderhoof wrote:
ShmooDude wrote:(short of a specific mechanic to boost us on short lived adds).
Please actually read through the thread before making comments like this.
That was rather unnecessarily snarky. I have read through the entire thread, and just because we have a yet as announced talent that does burst aoe doesn't negate my concerns.

EDIT: Meh, I can see how my original post could be interpreted as unnecessarily snarky as well, so if it was I apologize.

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Re: Blizzcon 2015 Discussion

Post by Polihayse » Wed Nov 11, 2015 1:06 am

physcx wrote:
Polihayse wrote:I honestly don't see the problems with feral that most people seem to think it has. Every time I see complaints about something like our single target damage it looks completely exaggerated. The biggest issue I have with it currently is the design due to set bonuses and just energy gains in general, but the damage balancing doesn't seem like a problem to me. I am usually near the top on every single fight in my guild and I have incredible survivability and mobility.
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/G2 ... amage-done

That was a world 1 feral parse at the time, just you know doing that fight that is our niche and only 35k dps behind mages who also btw soak entire waves on that fight for massive utility bonus there. So yea world 1 feral parse and 10th on the meters out of 14 for a fight with exactly 1 target. Or the 3 rogues all with 18k-22k ahead. If classes are 10% apart I'd call that poor balancing. The fact that they are 15%+ differences and bring enormous utility over us (cloak / cheat death / smoke bomb) makes us practically obsolete. If you have the roars from boomkin and resto and you have 3 rogues and a feral why would you bring a feral over 3 rogues ever? And those mage/rogue/lock classes can swap things around to be absolute monsters in aoe encounters as well. If you are topping meters on fights in your guild there is a real chance some of them are not playing at the same level you are.
That's not a good example. The fight is only 2:23 seconds long. Mages got 2 sets of cooldowns as well as rogues. Rogues and mages also benefit more from heroism which makes up 28% of the fight. If the fight was longer then feral definitely would have performed better. Also, what is the harm in bringing a feral druid to a group that kills the boss in 2 minutes and 23 seconds? This is fight is a very special case from which no conclusions should be drawn.

I don't know if it is simply the case that I'm performing better than the rest of my guild. It is hard to draw conclusions from looking at rankings because there are so few feral parses. I also have a feeling that a good number of those feral parses are likely to be people playing feral as an alt, so they probably aren't performing as well. On a fight like Mythic Archimonde though my damage is amazing. My guild has me save my cds on the pull for the 2nd doomfire and I still do very competitive damage. Before they had me save cooldowns during progression, I would use them on the pull and do very competitive damage next to Furty from Midwinter who was helping us. Here is a link to total damage dealt across 33 attempts where I started with my cds on the pull: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/TN ... 99&wipes=1

Here is the damage breakdown on my guild's first mythic archimonde kill in the last phase of the fight: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/Lc ... =damage-do

This warlock is 2 ilvls ahead of me, he is definitely performing near optimal, and we are essentially tied for damage. This seems like it is how it should be. If arcane mages and sub rogues are way ahead, then it is a problem with them, not us.

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Re: Blizzcon 2015 Discussion

Post by aggixx » Wed Nov 11, 2015 1:37 am

It is relevant, feral's relative DPS goes down substantially with fight length. Even ~3.5m fights don't favor us nearly as much as other specs favorite times favor them, thanks to ring. Fight lengths will only get shorter and shorter as farm drags on, rings get to max ilvl, and people upgrade their gear in 6.2.3. You can see this pretty clearly on WarcraftLogs stats, as you go up the percentiles feral goes from one of the best specs to one of the worst almost linearly.
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Re: Blizzcon 2015 Discussion

Post by Kojiyama » Wed Nov 11, 2015 1:45 am

aggixx wrote:Pretty sure you're playing at a higher level than the majority of your guild members if that is your perspective. In my guild I usually chill in the middle-lower part of the pack on most fights (some exceptions, like Tyrant and Council depending how aggressive you are multi-dotting, but still never first). I do have a slightly behind ring but my parses are very respectable for only a couple weeks of parses and focusing on trial things instead of ranking.

When you're just looking at total DPS (and you can exclude pad targets if you want) feral is just ok, I would hesitate to call it average. Especially when you look at our ability on priority targets impressions do not get any better, which is a big problem on progression but not so much on farm. I think (at a very high level) saying feral does not need buffs is not entirely unreasonable, but when other specs around our caliber in dealing damage are all getting buffed in 6.2.3 (DKs, Moonkins, Ret) and we are not it is borderline insulting.
I don't think Feral is that bad post-hotfix. I think the hotfix was a reasonably-sized bandaid that makes Feral pretty viable--albeit with some glaring mechanical weaknesses still present (ring scaling being one of the biggest things.) Arcane and Sub are still bonkers and there are certainly gaps in what we bring, but I honestly do feel there are enough positives that there is a reasonable chance that bringing a Feral in any 'reasonable' raid comp. (I have personally felt like a strong contributor to all of our progression in the later stages of HFC since the hotfix and have been generally happy with the value I bring on our current Mythic Archimonde progress. I know this is different from the cutting-edge progression months ago...but that is my perspective as someone progressing post-hotfix anyway.)

(That being said, it took them a long time to admit to the issues that lead to the Feral hotfixes and were basically giving the same type of, 'We think Ferals are in an OK place,' response up until the day they announced the hotfix!)

However, I do agree that it is pretty boggling to me to buff Retribution at this stage. They are very strong at the moment, IMO. I don't mind buffs to Moonkin since they are frankly not in a very good place right now in general. DKs are maybe somewhere in the middle zone.

Mechanically we are probably 'fine' sans some reasonable way to deal with short-lived targets and more uniform handling of cooldown intervals. Provided those issues get addressed, I'm not overly concerned about Legion. Everything else is just numbers--which is a slightly different fight to take up.
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Re: Blizzcon 2015 Discussion

Post by Tinderhoof » Wed Nov 11, 2015 1:54 am

Polihayse wrote:That's not a good example. The fight is only 2:23 seconds long. Mages got 2 sets of cooldowns as well as rogues. Rogues and mages also benefit more from heroism which makes up 28% of the fight. If the fight was longer then feral definitely would have performed better. Also, what is the harm in bringing a feral druid to a group that kills the boss in 2 minutes and 23 seconds? This is fight is a very special case from which no conclusions should be drawn.
As Aggixx says this is not a situation that is going to change or improve, it's only going to get worse as your raid continues to get more gear. You can't expect to only take into account our performance when the pull time is optimal for us. If a majority of fights end up being poorly timed for us and we suffer that is a problem with us. Classes being able to adapt to shorter times and continuing to be able to perform is how it should work. That is why we have a problem right now.
Polihayse wrote:This warlock is 2 ilvls ahead of me, he is definitely performing near optimal, and we are essentially tied for damage. This seems like it is how it should be. If arcane mages and sub rogues are way ahead, then it is a problem with them, not us.
The key here though is not how much total damage you did. It's the damage to critical targets that is telling. If Stars, and Infernals are not killed immediately the raid will wipe. The warlocks damage to them is huge. Your damage to them is super low. Honestly I wouldn't expect your damage to be high on them because we suck and bursting quick dying targets. It's also terrible to use Incarnation on Infernals because stunning them can wipe you (learned from personal experience). What Physcx is getting at is when a raid leader has to decided who to take on a fight, and there are critical targets that "MUST DIE NOW!" bringing a Feral over a Rogue, just hurts the raid. Now you don't see this nearly as much because of how much gear your raid has at this time so it's easier to have some classes be able to ignore the critical targets. You have a much different experience than Physcx and I did.

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Re: Blizzcon 2015 Discussion

Post by Kojiyama » Wed Nov 11, 2015 2:04 am

Well, I feel in the context of the current 'average' progression ilevels (~728) post-hotfix, Feral's sweet-spot probably is current high-end progression right now. This is obviously very different from early, cutting-edge progression (or aggressive farm)...but it is relevant now when talking about where things are at the moment.

I think something like Infernals is a specific example that depends on your raid comp as to if it is a big issue. If you are stacking a ton of classes that are all mediocre, sure... but if not, you can 'afford' to take the hit from a Feral to take advantage of the sustained Archimonde damage in that phase. It's not as much ignoring critical targets as much as it is determining what the critical mass is. This is similar to how you didn't really need a raid full of AoE classes to do Kormrok...you just needed a few.

This does suck if your raid is struggling with that mechanic, because it means you are likely to be the first to get cut... but there are many comps where having a Feral is going to be more positive than negative. (For example, I look at someone like Kraineth's Archimonde logs where he is both very high on overall DPS but also pretty respectable on priority target damage on P3 in general.)

Don't get me wrong, I think the lack of flexibility is a huge design flaw. However, I don't think it has many implications long-term for Legion without seeing what types of mechanical changes they are making more globally to cooldown durations and burst damage availability. Other classes are getting major changes too, so we'll just have to see how it all shakes out.
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Re: Blizzcon 2015 Discussion

Post by DomGF » Wed Nov 11, 2015 2:15 am

I have to agree with the devs in regard of gameplay, I think feral is fine with the abilities we have at our disposal when it comes down to our rotation, as for utility, thats was a disaster the entire expansion.

What I have always felt is that the numbers are just not there, in any possible scenario. Even post buff, feral is still irrelevant. Why bring a feral when you can bring a rogue that does more or equal damage while they actually are beneficial to the raid by executing some mechanic? If you want to bring a feral, you have to make the rest of your raid comp around the feral, because he will be pretty much just that guy that does damage and nothing else.

I have given up on WoD. I mean, coming from Blizzcon where devs say that they rather nerf the classes that are too high instead of buffing everyone else because then content gets too easy, but you can see mages and rogues doing insane damage and on top of that they are buffing every other melee but us...yeah, dont know how thats not contradictory at all.

Ultimately I cheer up because of what I have said before in other threads, I am extremely optimistic that the differentiation of PVE/PVP will help us quite a lot.

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Re: Blizzcon 2015 Discussion

Post by Whitepaw » Wed Nov 11, 2015 6:23 am

I see one mechanical flaw we need to address in Legion:

The Feral gain from Haste.

Blizzard simply needs to make the Feral spec an exception to other melee classes (or change their dot damage), so our dots gain from Haste. This is especially important when considering dps parses from bosses (Hero/BL), but it's also hugely important in gearing.

The devs either need to cave on this issue and give us dots scaled by Haste, or do a more wide-ranging re-design of our damage model. I would prefer the former, as the latter would leave us with too much damage from auto-attack :(

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Re: Blizzcon 2015 Discussion

Post by Nayni » Wed Nov 11, 2015 8:04 am

Kojiyama wrote:I think something like Infernals is a specific example that depends on your raid comp as to if it is a big issue. If you are stacking a ton of classes that are all mediocre, sure... but if not, you can 'afford' to take the hit from a Feral to take advantage of the sustained Archimonde damage in that phase. It's not as much ignoring critical targets as much as it is determining what the critical mass is. This is similar to how you didn't really need a raid full of AoE classes to do Kormrok...you just needed a few
The fact that you have to use the word "afford" just says enough. Feral is mediocre at what it does best and absolutely terrible at anything else. When your making a raid setup to push for progression or even smooth farm why would you not take that extra rogue, or warlock or hunter or mage who are better at what Feral does and way better at anything else Feral is weak at.

A class shouldn't be considered as "Oh we can afford to bring you". It should be brought because it's amazing at what it does and can keep up respectable with everything else. That's how 90% of the classes are designed as is.
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Re: Blizzcon 2015 Discussion

Post by Zstriker » Wed Nov 11, 2015 8:07 am

this thread gone to how are `we suck ballz now coz we have no utility and aoe`, instead blizzcon discussion (though I'm with Poli on this)

yet blizzcon is over, and what we get from it for our current spec:
-"ferals are in a good place" - no dramatic changes in our rotation and priorites are planned
-we will get ability to do stuff from other our druid spec while still be cats, bringing some sort of utility
-less heals in cat from, as rejuvination cast in cat form removed
-daggers`claws` as legendaries
-more class&spec specific information will come in blog post later today

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Re: Blizzcon 2015 Discussion

Post by Kojiyama » Wed Nov 11, 2015 12:22 pm

Nayni wrote:The fact that you have to use the word "afford" just says enough. Feral is mediocre at what it does best and absolutely terrible at anything else. When your making a raid setup to push for progression or even smooth farm why would you not take that extra rogue, or warlock or hunter or mage who are better at what Feral does and way better at anything else Feral is weak at.

A class shouldn't be considered as "Oh we can afford to bring you". It should be brought because it's amazing at what it does and can keep up respectable with everything else. That's how 90% of the classes are designed as is.
Afford was used contextually (hence the quotes) to refer to the shortcomings of priority target burst damage vs. the other positives Feral brings. I think calling Feral 'mediocre at what it does best' is slightly overstating our problems. We have the capability to beat a very large number of classes in sustained damage right now during progression scenarios. Sub Rogues are clearly better (and frankly broken from a balance perspective) but unless you are running in a guild that has an infinite number of Sub Rogues available, this is typically a moot point.

Don't get me wrong, I was in a place where I was very seriously considering swapping to my Mage a week or two prior to the hotfix and I can feel for those like yourself that were trying to do cutting edge Mythic progression prior to that point. Blizzard dropped the ball there, clearly. However, we honestly are not in a bad place at the moment, especially for progression ilevels.

Feral currently also has some very strong positives in a lot of the difficult progression bosses now after the hotfix and in the current comp meta--e.g. Xhul'horoc used to be dire for Feral but now is actually pretty decent because Imps can be trivialized by Warlocks right now and are a non-issue and Ferals do extremely good sustained boss damage to push through the phases with as well as final phase burn damage. Same goes for fights like Mannoroth (final phase burn) or even Gorefiend (where Ferals are actually really good at Soul management if they get assigned to it.)

A lot of this goes to show that the specific numbers/ilevel bands as well as comp meta plays a huge part in class viability, which is why we really can't make any assumptions about our role in Legion. There are too many unknowns about other class abilities and encounter design to say where our design paradigm will fall quite yet.
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Re: Blizzcon 2015 Discussion

Post by Nayni » Wed Nov 11, 2015 1:41 pm

Kojiyama wrote:Afford was used contextually (hence the quotes) to refer to the shortcomings of priority target burst damage vs. the other positives Feral brings. I think calling Feral 'mediocre at what it does best' is slightly overstating our problems. We have the capability to beat a very large number of classes in sustained damage right now during progression scenarios. Sub Rogues are clearly better (and frankly broken from a balance perspective) but unless you are running in a guild that has an infinite number of Sub Rogues available, this is typically a moot point.

...
The thing is that I, and I know a lot of people don't care about balancing when content becomes more and more trivial because of various item level boosts and the fact people have acquired more and more gear. The stage I look at when talking about balancing issues is from the start of the expansion until the last progression period in which the top 100-200 guilds end. Because I personally think that's the only stage where balancing matters. I don't give a rats ass about balancing problems when content is trivial and we are going to farm it for the next half a year to find BIS gear.

The point I, and we SHOULD talk about is everything before the endgame farming period starts so basiclly the point where we go back about 2 or 3 months. And to be frank, Feral has been an awful performer throughout the whole expansion.

Highmaul wasn't great, it wasn't terrible but frankly Feral was just a slot that you could "afford" to fill, I personally wouldn't have put myself in the setup if I had the power based on my spec.

Foundry was worse, because lots of classes started to outscale Feral slightly and we still had our fundamental problems where we are just too weak at our weaknesses. I was personally lucky enough to see everything in Foundry only beeing benched for our first kill on Blast Furnance but I wouldn't have picked myself to be in the setup at all again because frankly Feral's strong points just didn't outmatch the weak ones which were the dealbreakers in killing bosses a lot. By the end of Foundry Feral "seemed" to look good because guilds started pushing for faster kill times with the acquired gear, but I don't consider that period when we're talking about balancing issues because the only moments I feel matter is when content is new, not when it's trivial.

Hellfire was my last attempt at trying Feral on progression and I ended up going Rogue as soon as we hit Xhul because there was no way in hell I was going to kill that boss as Feral, and neither did it look like Feral was going to be good for Mannaroth or Archimonde. The sad part is that even as a 710 item level rogue at the time I did more effective damage to everything that was priority then I could have ever done as Feral on all those bosses.

Right now the ring has been upgraded to item level 780+ on average, kill times of HFC bosses have pretty much halved, it's useless to talk about balancing now because 80% of the content is trivial for raiding guilds.

While I will agree with you and more people on this thread is that Feral surely can do decent overall damage but that's the last thing I'll look at when considering balance issues. The fact remains that Feral's strong point is aimed towards beeing good at sustained single target. The truth is that we are just horrible at anything else they throw at us. Priority add damage has been important for a long long time now and AoE is just part of the game, it's next to insane that Feral is so bad at those things and to me it's the major deal breaker on why I think Feral is just not worthy of a raiding spot.

The thing in all your statements is that you always make the assumption that the important stuff like add/priority/aoe damage is covered by the group, but the realization you need to consider is that this is next to never the case when doing bosses when the item level is just not there yet. This is what I mean with the fact that using the word "afford" is basically the dealbreaker already. You can't rely on having the job covered because in loads of the cases it's not and when considering raid setups you're always going to take classes/specs that can perform multiple roles in a fight so you can cover all the bases with taking any risk.

Now we'll see what the Legion raid meta brings and how Feral will fit into this style but I frankly don't have my hopes up high. Weaknesses need to be addressed and we have to become more versitile for me to ever consider Feral in the future.
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Kojiyama
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Re: Blizzcon 2015 Discussion

Post by Kojiyama » Wed Nov 11, 2015 2:25 pm

I see your point and agree with a lot of what you said, however I can't personally support quite the same narrow view of 'only the first month(s) matter.'

There is a lot of competitive progression that happens after that point and it is pretty well-known that the initial bleeding-edge progression will always be dominated by degenerate strategies, split-farming, raid stacking, and a lot of aspects that are simply not common to the majority of even Mythic raiding guilds. In this context there will pretty much always be 'useless' classes regardless of if Blizzard got the numbers solid or not. (I certainly can never remember a progression race off the top of my head where every spec was equally represented in an optimal raid comp, anyhow...)

When the hotfix hit, there were only ~10 US kills of Archimonde at that point and I feel that it casts far too narrow a net to say that anything after that point doesn't matter. Of course it matters to a lot of players. So even if you and a lot of people don't care about balancing after that point, I would argue that very many more people have a different opinion there. We are still at only 64 US Archimonde kills right now, after all.

Was it very unfortunate that Feral wasn't 'ready to go' for the release of HFC? Absolutely. The Feral community was waiting for the 6.2 'major balancing pass' that was discussed but never appeared and was ultimately let down at the start of the tier. That doesn't necessarily mean we are in a bad place now or that we aren't mechanically close to where we need to be with a few tweaks.

(I would also argue that given Feral's relative peak is actually not at max ilevel right now, if we had the hotfix tuning at the launch of HFC that we would have been even better positioned than we were now. Ferals have some pretty significant advantages in the ~725-728 ilevel range that many of the early pre-hotfix Archimonde kills were at. This is also considering that Ferals scale less from the ring than other classes and therefore lower ring ilevels would have been relatively beneficial as well--it was really the gap created by the ring that provided the impetus for Blizzard to do the hotfixes in the first place, after all.)

In this way, I feel like Blizzard could both be right and wrong simultaneously about being being in an OK place right now. With a few adjustments and with correct numbers, we probably are very much in an OK place. However, this current xpac has shown that they have not been very good at evaluating if the numbers are in a good place and also that they made some boneheaded decisions when they designed the ring and such.
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