Feral Druid Blog post discussion

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aggixx
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Re: Feral Druid Blog post discussion

Post by aggixx » Thu Nov 12, 2015 12:43 am

Treeba wrote:That's always the way it is though. It will ultimately come down to how close are the talents tuned. Even when the tuning is close sometimes fight mechanics dictate talent choice for us. We might get to switch a lot, or we might switch hardly ever. They are increasingly hesitant to make real changes mid-expansion cycle so it will be very important that we offer tons of feedback during beta so we have as many viable talents as possible.
I think it comes down to: some people would rather have guaranteed complexity than have a chance of getting stuck with something easy/boring just because it's numerically superior. This isn't complexity vs simplicity in an existing talent tier on top of the base spec, this is complexity explicitly removed from the base spec and put in an optional talent.
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Re: Feral Druid Blog post discussion

Post by Kojiyama » Thu Nov 12, 2015 3:10 am

Well, honestly I have never been keen on Savage Roar. It only adds a minor amount of rotational complexity at the cost of a finisher/ability slot in our spellbook that could (in theory) be something a lot more interesting.

But, realistically, a huge amount will depend on what tier things are at, which glyphs they bake into abilities, and what new talents they add. Not really a lot to go on here.
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Re: Feral Druid Blog post discussion

Post by AsgardFM » Thu Nov 12, 2015 4:27 am

I don't think we need to worry about Thrash/Swipe/TF not being present. Other classes have had similar abilities missing and I have a (unsourced) memory of someones twitter saying that this is just a preview rather than everything a spec has.

Besides that, I wonder what happened with Affinity. Either they went through a huge rework in the last week (not impossible) or those are the passive bonuses that will go alongside a more active component that utilises the form/abilities of the relevant Affinity. To look at it objectively, none of those bonuses really fit the model they're leaning towards - interesting talents that provide a reasonable gameplay difference. Yes, two of them exist as talents now, and one is a major glyph, but that's under the current system where they seem to have a place.

It also looks like Bleeds being affected by Haste will not be included in Legion. Jagged Wounds almost seems to be Blizzard's experiment into how well it works as an idea. It will be an interesting gameplay style but I'm not sure how much difference 33% faster ticking will make to our "short lived adds" damage.

As a final thought, I doubt Incarnation will still be THE go-to talent. Assuming (as it's all we can do) the talent functionality won't change all it will give is 30 seconds of Rake Stun and 20% damage/double Crit for Shred, on a 3 minute cooldown. Without the 100% Rake bonus I don't think it's especially worth much.

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Re: Feral Druid Blog post discussion

Post by aggixx » Thu Nov 12, 2015 4:33 am

AsgardFM wrote:I don't think we need to worry about Thrash/Swipe/TF not being present. Other classes have had similar abilities missing and I have a (unsourced) memory of someones twitter saying that this is just a preview rather than everything a spec has.
Thrash is mentioned so it definitely still exists, Swipe and TF are quintessential feral-only abilities so its very likely we still have them.
AsgardFM wrote:Besides that, I wonder what happened with Affinity. Either they went through a huge rework in the last week (not impossible) or those are the passive bonuses that will go alongside a more active component that utilises the form/abilities of the relevant Affinity. To look at it objectively, none of those bonuses really fit the model they're leaning towards - interesting talents that provide a reasonable gameplay difference. Yes, two of them exist as talents now, and one is a major glyph, but that's under the current system where they seem to have a place.
Yes, it says so in the blog post, it's hiding in all those paragraphs ;)
AsgardFM wrote:As a final thought, I doubt Incarnation will still be THE go-to talent. Assuming (as it's all we can do) the talent functionality won't change all it will give is 30 seconds of Rake Stun and 20% damage/double Crit for Shred, on a 3 minute cooldown. Without the 100% Rake bonus I don't think it's especially worth much.
Improved Rake could still be in, I don't think they said anywhere that they were removing perks and I don't think any of our other perks are mentioned in the blog. Lack of free SR (which is very likely gone even if you do take the talent) hurts its value significantly, though. I think the question is whether whatever stumbling block they had where they think Incarnation was worse than it actually was was ever resolved.
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Re: Feral Druid Blog post discussion

Post by ShmooDude » Thu Nov 12, 2015 5:35 am

Everyone mentioning about Thrash/Swipe not being there actually got me thinking. If you notice Paladins/Death Knights they have abilities that change from ST to AoE based on the presence of Consecration/DnD. I think our AoE could actually function like that without too much trouble and would save space on the action bar. Something as simple as Shred hits your target as well as all targets within 8 yards affected by bleeds.

Doubt it'd happen as they don't seem to what to really change us much mechanically (at least not baseline, outside of the SR change) but was an interesting thought none the less.

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Re: Feral Druid Blog post discussion

Post by Sibylle » Thu Nov 12, 2015 6:23 am

Thandorr wrote:... our gore gameplay...
Brilliant Freudian typo :lol:

I'm glad they aren't touching too much of our basic rotation, but not happy about SR becoming optional - unless, of course, they are giving us options of additional complexity from other talents. I really don't want to monitor even fewer abilities, my DroodFocus has few enough icons these days as it is.

Really looking forward to the Beta now.
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Re: Feral Druid Blog post discussion

Post by AsgardFM » Thu Nov 12, 2015 6:28 am

Thank you, aggix, for pointing out the affinity line I missed. And the fact that Rake was a perk bonus. Seems I should not post about things after reading a post 20 mins after waking up. I'll get back to hibernating I guess...

Regarding the pala/dk aoe changes aren't they tank only? Seems like more of a change that Guardian would gain rather than Feral.

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Re: Feral Druid Blog post discussion

Post by Whitepaw » Thu Nov 12, 2015 6:40 am

These previews only mention the more interesting core abilities. So we can safely assume that we keep our AoE abilities - and even if we don't, we still keep some kind of AoE capability. The whole problem hasn't been our abilities, but the fact that our capability to AoE has been substandard.

I still see most of the posts here as keeping inside the box. Most people still gravitate towards the paradigm of "dps matters most" instead of asking for more complex gameplay, so utility would matter much more. I think that's a bit sad, because it makes the discussion very single-minded. It also makes the balancing act more difficult for the devs, because the classes/specs will never be balanced 100% all of the time. So, if Feral end up "under-performing" by 2-3%, you would still be benched because another class/spec would take the raid spot.

One of the biggest problems is that we are almost playing World of Meters, de facto competing against others on the dps charts, instead of World of Warcraft, where we fight to the death against our enemies. Just look at the discussion here, which basically nullifies the fact that our spec has the potential to pump out considerable healing and CC. The abilities are there, but the encounter designs in PvE doesn't require us to take advantage of them.

We should address that. Yes, it's a much more complex discussion, but if we don't, we'll keep up the dps rat-race for the next expansion as well. This will either lead to homogeneous design of abilities across classes (like all dps CDs having the same up- and downtime) or frustration because we feel we have drawn the short end of the stick. I mean, even if Ferals are buffed to the top, we still loose - because other classes and specs will be below us on the dps meters, and the people who play those specs will be frustrated.

That being said - we do need to address Haste. Since Haste will stay as a stat, and Hero/BL will stay as well, we will keep having the same problem in Legion as we've had in WoD. Haste simply needs to have a more profound effect on our damage model, preferably by buffing the damage from our bleeds.

PS: I welcome the change to SR. Required self-buffs should die in a fire in my opinion. They only reveal who's able to install the correct addon to monitor it and who has the mental bandwidth to keep it activated. Besides that, there is 0 interaction with the target, in spite of the fact that it's a "finisher" in its current state.

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Re: Feral Druid Blog post discussion

Post by Amitty » Thu Nov 12, 2015 8:17 am

All I can say is that I'm sick of being carried on priority "raid wipes if you don't kill it in 7 seconds" targets. We'll wait and see the talents, but if we don't get anything that will give us the ability to short burst single and AoE targets for a moderate amount of damage even more people will abandon the ship.

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Re: Feral Druid Blog post discussion

Post by ocedy » Thu Nov 12, 2015 8:23 am

I can't help to feel a bit disappointed by the the preview for Ferals. As others have pointed out, I seriously hope that we will get some degree of complexity from other talents in case SR is toned a bit on the weak side. A good guess is probably SR on the same talent row as Jagged wounds as both make our rotation a bit more complicated, if I understand JW correctly (I assume it works similar to the Affliction Warlock class trinket?)

Also I really hope that the reincarnation of SR as a talent will not end in the same problem as in WOD with Blood Talons, where our "new" (as in viable 100) talent was just a previous talent. But ultimately one has to wait for the Beta to start to get a more detailed look at the state of Ferals, especially what our AOE options will be...

@ World of Meters

One of the main reasons for this is in my opinion that the majority of PVE content (Raiding/Dungeons) is bases on a very strict separation of roles within encounters, which leaves little wiggling room for "true" hybrid utility unless its unique, which is something Blizzard seems to avoid these days, probably because this creates further balancing problems down the line: What if this utility is unnecessary for an encounter? Will you take the (probably) suboptimal hybrid or a more efficient specialist? This problem is already in the game in a lesser state in my opinion (Dps with immunities vs those without for example) that I can not imagine the devs want multiple new angles they have to watch while balancing all while avoiding that things get too obscure for the "average" player.

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Re: Feral Druid Blog post discussion

Post by Zokis » Thu Nov 12, 2015 8:38 am

Think they didn't say much. Not a huge problem to me though. They already said we won't get changed much, outside of talents

I had hoped for more elaboration of us being able to taking other roles, but outside of the passives we didn't hear anything. Do we got rejuv back in cat-form if we pick resto, for instance. Getting tranquility back?
Do like the idea with 5 yards range for melee/abilities. Makes us able to get outside of the usual melee clutter and being better at the spread out-abilities on bosses than other melee.
I wonder if we still maintain our 20% extra healing in cat form. If that's the case then we get relatively tough if we pick bear. Having the option of both 10% reduction and that healing.
As another mentioned. The ability to have both displacer beast and feline swiftness at the same time might be anoption.
All in all it sounds very promising in terms of being a versatile hybrid. I just hope the active part is strong enough to actually feel worthwhile. Not much fun to picking bear, if you still die from even a HC boss in 1-2 hits.

Wish they had talked about what "compelling alternatives" they were talking about for savage roar. Seems a bit like warm air just to say that. For all we know they could just drop treeants and bloody talons in that tier alongside it and call it a day. Probably won't but sounds like they don't even have an idea as to what alternatives there should be

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Re: Feral Druid Blog post discussion

Post by Kojiyama » Thu Nov 12, 2015 10:38 am

Yeah, it will be interesting to see which Major Glyphs they decide to bake in and which they shift towards talents or whatnot.

(Personally, I have always ran with the 10% reduction rather than the 20% healing...so I'm curious what they do there.)
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Re: Feral Druid Blog post discussion

Post by Wolfpath » Thu Nov 12, 2015 11:36 am

The feral portion of the preview wasn't terribly exciting, but going by what we heard at Blizzcon I was prepared for that. Our single target rotation is already pretty solid, so there's not that much to fix there. We'll just have to wait and see how interesting the talents turn out.

Single target rotation aside, our AoE is pretty lacking, both in numbers and in fun. We just don't have the energy regeneration to spam swipe, and I'm not a fan of running around and trying to keep rake ticking on everything in sight either. Its just too much of a chore with the current targeting system.

So my biggest hope for Legion is to get a new AoE rotation. Personally, ever since I set foot inside Zul'Gurub I've wanted to dash from mob to mob as a channeled AoE move. Make it only target mobs affected by thrash and thats probably a base to build something more interesting from.

While making wishes, I'd also love to get some new special effects and attack animations to make us look a bit more interesting while fighting, and lower cooldown on stuff like berserk (at a hit to its duration) so we could use our major cooldowns more often.

Just going to have to wait for the beta to find out I guess.

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Re: Feral Druid Blog post discussion

Post by Polihayse » Thu Nov 12, 2015 11:58 am

Savage roar seems like a single target dps talent. Without it, all of our finishers will be either Rip or Ferocious Bite. Since Rip is the best damage per combo points and Savage Roar's damage gain as a finisher is most likely greater than Ferocious Bite, it seems likely that we will not be using this talent for cleave fights. You will be able to cast more Rips without it and that is more suited for cleave fights. This is assuming that it is difficult to keep bleeds up on 2-3 targets with the talent.

I get the feeling that they are putting Jagged Wounds on the same tier as Savage Roar. Since bleeds are a higher percent of the damage on cleave fights, Jagged Wounds seems like the go to choice here. There could be a better option in the tier for cleave since this talent also provides a slightly better ability to switch to short-lived targets(15-20 seconds).

I'm curious about their reasoning behind these talent choices. They seem very easy to implement and this is at least partially the reason why they decided to go with these ideas. The fact that they did not elaborate on the intended functions of these talents makes me feel that they intended on leaving this question open-ended. I know that they did not do that for other classes, but feral has so little change going into its main playstyle that I feel like they at least owed us that. Also the fact that they had to copy and paste a lot of what we already have in order to make the post look presentable. =/ Shitty that I am conditioned to feel this way about their priorities when redesigning the spec. For example, statements like "We are happy with feral's core design" can easily be interpretted as "We don't want to spend much time fixing feral because it is played by a much smaller percentage of the community."

What was the purpose of these posts btw? I know the community generally sees them as a nice treat, but what did Blizzard have to gain from this? Were they trying to generate hype for the next expansion or is this something to hold us over?

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Re: Feral Druid Blog post discussion

Post by physcx » Thu Nov 12, 2015 12:55 pm

I'm going to guess that savage roar the talent is going to be something you can't keep up all the time or it will be a weakened version like a 15% dmg increase.

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Re: Feral Druid Blog post discussion

Post by Zokis » Thu Nov 12, 2015 1:05 pm

Oh yeah. Small thing with the 5 yard range. It makes our skull bash having a pretty long range. It's pretty much an extra charge

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Re: Feral Druid Blog post discussion

Post by Whitepaw » Thu Nov 12, 2015 2:58 pm

Why a new aoe rotation? Why not just a lot more punch, especially in Swipe?

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Re: Feral Druid Blog post discussion

Post by kravotir » Thu Nov 12, 2015 4:00 pm

Reason for concern?
https://twitter.com/WarcraftDevs/status ... 0499346432

What is the reasoning behind keeping feral automatic stealthed rake stun in PvP? It makes for uninteresting gameplay.

Incarnation no longer affects Rake in Legion.

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Re: Feral Druid Blog post discussion

Post by Tinderhoof » Thu Nov 12, 2015 4:06 pm

That is actually a good thing. It prevents it from becoming the go to over everything else. The sad thing is that it's really boring if only Shred is really getting buffed by a cooldown.

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Re: Feral Druid Blog post discussion

Post by Zokis » Thu Nov 12, 2015 4:07 pm

kravotir wrote:Reason for concern?
https://twitter.com/WarcraftDevs/status ... 0499346432

What is the reasoning behind keeping feral automatic stealthed rake stun in PvP? It makes for uninteresting gameplay.

Incarnation no longer affects Rake in Legion.
Can still stealth and rake though.
Hopefully this change just means that we again can have other options in pvp than incarnation. I'm very tired of that talent in pvp. I much preferred to be able to use treeants. But they break too easily now

edit:
i assume you still can stealth during it, and then throwing rake with stun component.

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Re: Feral Druid Blog post discussion

Post by aggixx » Thu Nov 12, 2015 7:34 pm

If you can still prowl during Incarnation then the value is largely the same for PvE, just played a little differently. Seems like a great change for PvP and PvE imo, the uncontrolled stun was a bit ridiculous. It'd probably be for the better if Improved Rake was removed but I also agree with Tinderhoof that the talent leaves a lot to be desired if the only thing it does is buff Shred.
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Re: Feral Druid Blog post discussion

Post by aggixx » Thu Nov 12, 2015 7:59 pm

Some new tweets, spec affinities confirmed to be baseline, and this:
Q: If I'm playing Feral w/ guardian affinity, could I perform a 3rd tank role in encounters using a 3-tank strategy?
A: The intention is that any Druid with Guardian Affinity can tank something, as long as it's not overly hard-hitting.
https://twitter.com/WarcraftDevs/status ... 1986317312

So no tanking mythic bosses I guess? Maybe with Survival Instincts (assuming we still have it).
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Re: Feral Druid Blog post discussion

Post by Tinderhoof » Thu Nov 12, 2015 8:35 pm

There was another tweet confirming that we get our main spec affinity passive ability for free.

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Re: Feral Druid Blog post discussion

Post by ShmooDude » Thu Nov 12, 2015 8:57 pm

Tinderhoof wrote:There was another tweet confirming that we get our main spec affinity passive ability for free.
Cool, question is though, is the 15% movement speed on top of 30% from cat form like it is now when you talent feline swiftness. I'd assume so, but there's always the possibility they reduce cat's movement speed to compensate.

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Re: Feral Druid Blog post discussion

Post by Ancihcaor » Thu Nov 12, 2015 9:34 pm

I said it before but I really wish they would do something with Maim instead of baking a stun into stealth Rake. Incarnation with only Shred and Prowl in combat seems lackluster, but I wish we knew more about it. A Maim working as an opener with a 10s cd while stealth/Incarnation and working as live version a (finisher with no cd) seems more intuitive to me and more control over DR triggering. This would turn Rake back to a bleed only, with snare attached, with buffed damage while stealth/Incarnation. It's mostly coming a pvp perspective, especially the DR part but I believe merging too many functions into one ability is not a design I like personally. I am really curious about Savage Roar, like what are the other 2 talents in the same row?

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