Feral Druid Blog post discussion

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Annalese
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Re: Feral Druid Blog post discussion

Post by Annalese » Thu Nov 12, 2015 10:18 pm

ShmooDude wrote:
Tinderhoof wrote:There was another tweet confirming that we get our main spec affinity passive ability for free.
Cool, question is though, is the 15% movement speed on top of 30% from cat form like it is now when you talent feline swiftness. I'd assume so, but there's always the possibility they reduce cat's movement speed to compensate.
Another worry would be if we'd lose feral charge / blink :( Blink's utility has been so nice, I hope not!

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Re: Feral Druid Blog post discussion

Post by Tremnen » Thu Nov 12, 2015 10:32 pm

Annalese wrote:https://twitter.com/brandaustin/status/ ... 5213864960

"Are ferals supposed to be swapping to Moonkin after they dump energy to cast while regening energy in Legion?"
The version of Moonkin Form granted by Balance Affinity will have a cooldown to prevent using it rotationally.
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Re: Feral Druid Blog post discussion

Post by Tremnen » Thu Nov 12, 2015 10:33 pm

my assumption is feline swiftness is removed and baked into the feral specilization (same for ysera's gift into the resto passive)

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Re: Feral Druid Blog post discussion

Post by Nich » Thu Nov 12, 2015 10:46 pm

Wolfpath wrote:Single target rotation aside, our AoE is pretty lacking, both in numbers and in fun. We just don't have the energy regeneration to spam swipe, and I'm not a fan of running around and trying to keep rake ticking on everything in sight either. Its just too much of a chore with the current targeting system.

So my biggest hope for Legion is to get a new AoE rotation. Personally, ever since I set foot inside Zul'Gurub I've wanted to dash from mob to mob as a channeled AoE move. Make it only target mobs affected by thrash and thats probably a base to build something more interesting from.
Killing spree is already there mechanically... not sure if they're going to go the traditional route tho' and give us more rogue abilities. Killing Spree that applied rake to things affected by thrash could be interesting if niche, depending on the cooldown.

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Re: Feral Druid Blog post discussion

Post by Tinderhoof » Thu Nov 12, 2015 11:52 pm

I keep tellin folks. We are going to be a primarily ST class. Do not expect us to get some fancy AoE rotation. We are getting the talent to do quick burst AoE, but we aren't getting anything past that.

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Re: Feral Druid Blog post discussion

Post by Zokis » Fri Nov 13, 2015 4:08 am

Which talent are you talking about for quick burst aoe, tinder?
If we get that i'm more than happy.

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Re: Feral Druid Blog post discussion

Post by Wolfpath » Fri Nov 13, 2015 4:54 am

Tinderhoof wrote:I keep tellin folks. We are going to be a primarily ST class. Do not expect us to get some fancy AoE rotation. We are getting the talent to do quick burst AoE, but we aren't getting anything past that.
Since they posted that they want all three rogue specs to have viable AoE this time, I don't see it as unreasonable that we get some decent AoE as well. We don't have to be the best at it by any means, but in WoD it was downright depressing.

And while I'm sure they could tune the numbers on Thrash and Swipe if they really tried, though I do believe random Omen procs would make that difficult to do, I'm holding on to the hope for something new.

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Re: Feral Druid Blog post discussion

Post by Elamari » Fri Nov 13, 2015 5:00 am

ShmooDude wrote:
Tinderhoof wrote:There was another tweet confirming that we get our main spec affinity passive ability for free.
Cool, question is though, is the 15% movement speed on top of 30% from cat form like it is now when you talent feline swiftness. I'd assume so, but there's always the possibility they reduce cat's movement speed to compensate.
I don't think they would reduce our speed. It will probably still stack additively like it does now. Passive movement speed with the Feline Swiftness talent is 162% while stealthed, which is pretty fast.
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Re: Feral Druid Blog post discussion

Post by deemer » Fri Nov 13, 2015 5:19 am

You may also add to the opening post that Stampeding Roar will become exclusive for ferals/guardians - it was announced on Blizzcon. I think this should give us decent place in terms of raid utility at last.

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Re: Feral Druid Blog post discussion

Post by Whitepaw » Fri Nov 13, 2015 5:50 am

Wolfpath wrote:
Tinderhoof wrote:I keep tellin folks. We are going to be a primarily ST class. Do not expect us to get some fancy AoE rotation. We are getting the talent to do quick burst AoE, but we aren't getting anything past that.
Since they posted that they want all three rogue specs to have viable AoE this time, I don't see it as unreasonable that we get some decent AoE as well. We don't have to be the best at it by any means, but in WoD it was downright depressing.

And while I'm sure they could tune the numbers on Thrash and Swipe if they really tried, though I do believe random Omen procs would make that difficult to do, I'm holding on to the hope for something new.
Swipe generating too many combo points with multiple targets up is what's keeping the devs back on buffing that ability, as far as I know. We don't need a new, fancy AoE tool - Thrash and Swipe is fine, especially if our general melee range can be extended with the Balance affinity.

But Swipe needs to be buffed, because we need some front-loading AoE in the current (and probably also future) PvE encounters.

Personally, I would prefer if the devs reversed the design back to Vanilla and TBC: Less adds, with way more hp and dps, and less AoE dps from all classes. Then, we would need the raid to CC adds and isolate the kill targets. That would lead to more difficult PvE encounters, where actual raid leading would be required for more than just maximising healing and dps.

Back in Vanilla and TBC, you simply could not AoE stuff down, if you raided at the appropriate item level. Doing so would kill the tanks and run your healers out of mana. It added a layer of difficulty in all PvE content, even when you levelled up. You simply could not pull 4-5 mobs at a time. You had to pull intelligently in order to survive.

Now, the beautiful part was that you could AoE on some encounters. So, the people who had the experience were able to AoE on those encounters. This created a way more diverse gameplay than what we have today.

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Re: Feral Druid Blog post discussion

Post by Tinderhoof » Fri Nov 13, 2015 9:30 am

Wolfpath wrote:Since they posted that they want all three rogue specs to have viable AoE this time, I don't see it as unreasonable that we get some decent AoE as well. We don't have to be the best at it by any means, but in WoD it was downright depressing.
While it's not unreasonable, it's not something they want to do. This is the third time I'm about to say this, when asking a designer point blank "Do you expect us to stay in the single target niche?" the reply was an immediate, "Yes". They went on to mention that we would get a talent to help with burst AoE situations. However it's not for sustained AoE and we will have to give up something because its a talent.

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Re: Feral Druid Blog post discussion

Post by Tinderhoof » Fri Nov 13, 2015 9:34 am

Whitepaw wrote:Swipe generating too many combo points with multiple targets up is what's keeping the devs back on buffing that ability, as far as I know
That's actually not the reason. The reason is if swipe hits any harder than it does now it will become better than shred on 2 targets. I'm have never been able to get a response on why that is a problem but there you have it.

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Re: Feral Druid Blog post discussion

Post by Kojiyama » Fri Nov 13, 2015 12:38 pm

I've always thought the whole Swipe vs. Shred debate was a silly rationale. Who cares? Shred is like the last possible button in our priority list, so I honestly don't mind at all if it sometimes gets replaced. (Also, Swipe still has a fair amount of buff room before it is equal to Shred for 2 targets.)

By the way, I saw this snippet on the Twitter questions:

"What is the reasoning behind keeping feral automatic stealthed rake stun in PvP? It makes for uninteresting gameplay.
Incarnation no longer affects Rake in Legion. (WarcraftDevs)"

If Incarnation only affects Shred, that will definitely limit its application to certain situations.
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Re: Feral Druid Blog post discussion

Post by Tinderhoof » Fri Nov 13, 2015 1:03 pm

Kojiyama wrote:I've always thought the whole Swipe vs. Shred debate was a silly rationale. Who cares?
You are preaching to the choir. But you and I aren't making the call.
Tinderhoof wrote:That is actually a good thing. It prevents it from becoming the go to over everything else. The sad thing is that it's really boring if only Shred is really getting buffed by a cooldown.
;^)

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Re: Feral Druid Blog post discussion

Post by Kojiyama » Fri Nov 13, 2015 1:46 pm

Whoops, I somehow missed that after the page break!
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Re: Feral Druid Blog post discussion

Post by Kraineth » Fri Nov 13, 2015 2:14 pm

Probably safe to say that incarn will be changed somewhat, or maybe Berserk made longer to fit the full duration. My first guess is that it is going to compete with Jagged Wounds so we choose between more Single target via a cooldown, or more cleave/aoe via shorter DoT durations.

But blizzard did say they wanted to do away with arbitrary dps/cc/healing talent tiers, so maybe some of these talents won't have to compete.

Personally I am glad to see rake unaffected by incarnation, tying a major cooldown to a spammable stun was never a good idea to begin with. Every raid this expansion had a fight where I had to consciously avoid putting rake on certain targets because stunning them was a bad idea.

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Re: Feral Druid Blog post discussion

Post by Satrion » Fri Nov 13, 2015 8:06 pm

Here is why I am nervous about Blizz thinking of us as single target specialists again. The fact is we are not single target specialists the the way an arcane mage is, we are SUSTAINED single target specialists. Our single target burst is among the worst in the game outside of 3 minute CDs. It's true that sustained single target is the one role that is in (nearly) every fight, but it is also the one role that you're never going to have THAT big an advantage in.

Patchwerk damage will always be the most closely balanced aspect of DPS. These days it is rare to see any class have more than a 5% or so advantage over anyone else. Meanwhile it is the norm for some specs to be 30-40% better at say burst AoE or sustained cleave than others. I don't really want another expansion of doing 2% better boss damage and 75% worse damage to everything else.

My personal hope is that now that PvP is separate, they can really emphasize bleeds again (as a side not I HATE the play style that the 4p and class trinket bring. I have spent more time at energy cap in the last couple months than I did for the last 9 years combined. I really hate being essentially a rage class without the tools to dump rage). That could mean we would be very good sustained ST and very good sustained cleave. Maybe this mythical AoE talent Tinder keeps talking about will give us at least good burst AoE at a (hopefully small) single target cost. That still leaves us as bad at burst ST, burst cleave, and sustained AoE. That would be ok with me. No spec should be good at everything of course. As always, tuning will be a huge factor, but that is the only way I see feral working with what we know of the tool-kit.

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Re: Feral Druid Blog post discussion

Post by ShmooDude » Sat Nov 14, 2015 3:25 am

Satrion wrote:Here is why I am nervous about Blizz thinking of us as single target specialists again. The fact is we are not single target specialists the the way an arcane mage is, we are SUSTAINED single target specialists. Our single target burst is among the worst in the game outside of 3 minute CDs. It's true that sustained single target is the one role that is in (nearly) every fight, but it is also the one role that you're never going to have THAT big an advantage in.

Patchwerk damage will always be the most closely balanced aspect of DPS. These days it is rare to see any class have more than a 5% or so advantage over anyone else. Meanwhile it is the norm for some specs to be 30-40% better at say burst AoE or sustained cleave than others. I don't really want another expansion of doing 2% better boss damage and 75% worse damage to everything else.

My personal hope is that now that PvP is separate, they can really emphasize bleeds again (as a side not I HATE the play style that the 4p and class trinket bring. I have spent more time at energy cap in the last couple months than I did for the last 9 years combined. I really hate being essentially a rage class without the tools to dump rage). That could mean we would be very good sustained ST and very good sustained cleave. Maybe this mythical AoE talent Tinder keeps talking about will give us at least good burst AoE at a (hopefully small) single target cost. That still leaves us as bad at burst ST, burst cleave, and sustained AoE. That would be ok with me. No spec should be good at everything of course. As always, tuning will be a huge factor, but that is the only way I see feral working with what we know of the tool-kit.
Yeah, I attempted to say something similar earlier in the thread, though I think you worded it much better. Being a sustained single target specialist is about the least needed DPS role in the game in my opinion. Blizzard (attempts) to tightly tune single target damage as noted by all the various single target DPS tweaks over the course of this expansion. Obviously gonna have to wait to see what the talents look like but honestly I don't think I could go through another expansion in our current role. I've got no problem being a single target specialist, but not a sustained single target specialist. Maybe there'll be a good enough variety of talents that that won't matter, I certainly hope so, but very seriously doubting Bliz at this point regarding Ferals.

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Re: Feral Druid Blog post discussion

Post by TheLOOGE » Sat Nov 14, 2015 10:58 am

Hello again! Long time no see! Now that formalities and reintroductions are out of the way, let me jump right in with a quick comment:
Satrion wrote:Here is why I am nervous about Blizz thinking of us as single target specialists again. The fact is we are not single target specialists the the way an arcane mage is, we are SUSTAINED single target specialists. Our single target burst is among the worst in the game outside of 3 minute CDs. It's true that sustained single target is the one role that is in (nearly) every fight, but it is also the one role that you're never going to have THAT big an advantage in.
Callimonk (WW Theorycrafter extraordinaire) tweeted out something interesting the other day -- single target should NEVER be a niche. While I don't necessarily agree fully with that sentiment, I think she might be onto something. It happens to carry over into what Satrion says here and thoughts I've made vocal in the past. What good is having a single target niche if half a dozen other specs and classes do just as much (in many cases, way more) while maintaining some form of versatility, being able to branch out and cleave insanely well or burst AoE or any/all of the above? I think sole niches cause more problems than they solve in this day and age of raiding, because they end up alienating specs, such as Feral, when we aren't able to contribute in any meaningful way. Encounters/Examples that immediately come to mind would be Mythic Blast Furnace, but also, Mythic Imperator, Tectus, and to a lesser extent, many others in HFC. What other encounter exposes Feral more than Blast Furnace? What's more, what other encounter exposes ANY spec as much as Blast Furnace exposed Feral?

I'm not sure if having bleeds do damage 33% faster really solves any of the woes that plague our spec today. Will Rip be worth casting on a medium-HP, high priority target? Will we have means of shifting damage into something that HAS to die right away without losing gross amounts of single target damage on the boss?

I suppose it's nice to read that they're 'planning' on giving us an answer for bursty AoE situations, but after holding my breath this ENTIRE EXPANSION for them to buff swipe to be not so incredibly shitty (spare me the shred on 2 targets explanation -- PLENTY of headroom to buff swipe without encroaching on shred for 2 targets), I remain decidedly skeptical.

Guess we'll have to wait for Artifact weapon reveals, although, the Balance affinity seems pretty neat. Someone tweeted out that Guardian is getting moonfire applied to their AoE rotation with Thrash/Swipe or whatever. I followed up asking if Feral was going to get the same benefit to our Thrash/Swipe AoE abilities, but I haven't received a response yet.

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Re: Feral Druid Blog post discussion

Post by Zstriker » Sat Nov 14, 2015 11:51 am

I'm really on stand by for now, that info we got is not enough to say about spec, we either don't know anything about incoming encounters,
when the beta comes, we need to bombardier(forums, twitter, in game report) them that we are not left in only single target niche yet again,
our community is very small, yet we need to roar not purr for our enojable feral concept in every aspect

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Re: Feral Druid Blog post discussion

Post by Rayen » Sat Nov 14, 2015 12:54 pm

https://twitter.com/WarcraftDevs/status ... 7244456960

Will we get an updated Aspect of the Pack for Legion? I hate having to find the forgetful hunter and tell him to turn it off

Aspect of the Pack will no longer bother you in Legion...
Interesting. Almost sounds like we'll be the only raid wide movement speed increase in Legion at this point.
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Re: Feral Druid Blog post discussion

Post by TheLOOGE » Sat Nov 14, 2015 1:40 pm

Weird. Are they removing the Windwalker raidwide movement speed increase?

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Re: Feral Druid Blog post discussion

Post by Kojiyama » Sat Nov 14, 2015 4:38 pm

That post doesn't seem to preclude the idea that Pack might be redesigned as a Stampeding Roar-like ability. I know that has been kicked around in the past.
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Re: Feral Druid Blog post discussion

Post by ShmooDude » Sat Nov 14, 2015 5:59 pm

Kojiyama wrote:That post doesn't seem to preclude the idea that Pack might be redesigned as a Stampeding Roar-like ability. I know that has been kicked around in the past.
That'd be a reasonable idea since they took it away from resto/moonkin (the large majority of the druid population). There aren't that many windwalkers either so most raids would have 0 to 1 even if they did that.

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Re: Feral Druid Blog post discussion

Post by teddabear » Sat Nov 14, 2015 8:23 pm

Jagged Wounds
Hurray!, been asking for this for about 5 years.

Astral Influence: Increases the range of all spells, abilities, and autoattacks by 5 yds.
Sounds great but it will be very unfortunate if Blizzard uses Jagged Wounds and Astral Influence as an excuse to leave Rake spam as the only Feral AoE. Very, very, very unfortunate.

Making Savage Roar optional in the talent tree in Warlords worked well to open up gameplay opportunities. We’re taking this approach further by flipping it around—Savage Roar is now a talent choice matched against two compelling alternatives that cater to different play styles.
Things that make you go Hmmmm. Can't really say anything more without seeing the implementation and the other compelling choices, and whether they become the fun tax for playing Feral. To quote just about every major Star Wars character "I've got a bad feeling about this"

Shred
Damage increased by 20% against bleeding targets.

Ramp up. Ugh.

Shred
While stealthed, Shred deals 20% increased damage, and has double the chance to critically strike.

Incarnation only viable talent choice again???

If swipe hits any harder than it does now it will become better than shred on 2 targets
If Blizzard is going to make retarded statements like this then at a minimum they should explain why it is a problem. I have never been able to come up with a reason, and I have never seen anybody else post a scenario where it would be a problem.



Some thoughts on ways to Improve Feral
Make Haste a good stat.
Buff FB in PvE and nerf in PvP.
Make Swipe a timed ability that hits hard. Maybe not Bladestorm hard but in that vein with a shorter cooldown. Pretty much stole this one from Tinderhoof.
Ferocious Bite - Refunds combo points if it kills the target! Feral really needs this one to be viable in Mythic.

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