Feral Druid Blog post discussion

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Tinderhoof
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Re: Feral Druid Blog post discussion

Post by Tinderhoof » Thu Nov 19, 2015 2:10 pm

Kojiyama wrote: I think most MMO devs would very much classify Ferals as a 'DoT class' given that the majority of our damage is periodic.
It's not me you are disagreeing with. I think you are right. I only speak specifically about our own designers though. While the words are semantical just as I said above, how they treat the mechanic is how they want to treat it.
Kojiyama wrote:Bleeds are really only a semantic difference in terms of game mechanics that have little implication other than us getting boned on Haste scaling for "reasons."
The reasons I have seen have been related to, "If we haste yours we have to haste all bleeds, which will screw with Warriors, and Rogues (and a minor degree hunters) which we don't want to deal with" (paraphrasing). Of course they could put tech in for just our bleeds to be the only ones touched by haste, but from a practical standpoint one spec out of 34 needing special tech for a feature they aren't even keen on adding to begin with isn't exactly the best use of resources. Before anyone jumps up and says how easy it might be, remember all of the bugs we have had regarding energy refund, regen, and spending this expac, and that was caused by trying to simplify how all our stuff worked.
Kojiyama wrote: but apparently Warlocks are better at advocating for changes than Ferals!
That's the thing though, it wasn't just warlocks. It was ALL casters, both healer and dps alike that was affected by the change. That is a good half of the player base. But yes other classes have a better time getting changed because there are more of them. We are a minority.
Kojiyama wrote:Tab-DoT as a mechanic requires too much fiddling with a targeting system that doesn't actually work very well and too much reliance on mods/DoT trackers.
But at least with casters they can do it forever. They are limited only by the GCD. We can't go more than 3 targets before we have to wait. I don't mind having it as a cleave mechanic, but ya screw that being our only "AoE" solution.

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Re: Feral Druid Blog post discussion

Post by Polihayse » Thu Nov 19, 2015 5:49 pm

If they can fix basic functions like tab targeting, then I would be fine with Raking individual targets. I'm still fine with Raking multiple targets as I don't find it that hard. I have a nice cursor addon that helps me with this though.

One of the biggest problems that I wish they would address is how poor the default UI is. Instead of removing snapshotting, they should have made it easier for the average person to access the necessary information.

Look at what we have right now. Health and target are all the way on the top left. You need to develop a habit of glancing at it occasionally to get any information from it because it is so small rather than simply seeing it out of the corner of your eye. You also have combo points on the target frame on the top left, so you need to basically watch the top left of the screen carefully if you want to maximize your dps. Buffs are all the way on the top right. The buffs that are relevant to maximizing dps are scattered among things like HoTs, absorbs, defensives, or speed boosts. These buffs are on the opposite side of the screen from your primary resource for dealing damage. You have a UI that promotes clicking your buttons on the bottom of the screen. This is why some people who mess up easy mechanics look like complete idiots from the other players perspective. What else is to be expected when this is what they have to work with? The default setup does not give you the information you need, and this actually restricts the amount of complexity that they can put into the design of classes. We could have a better game not just because of a better UI, but because of the fact that this barrier would be removed and allow people to increase their performance and potential, and therefore allow for the development of more complex/interesting playstyles.

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Re: Feral Druid Blog post discussion

Post by Zstriker » Thu Nov 19, 2015 6:29 pm

they can't fix tab targetting as it not broken, it's just a mess for melee in general to target and move vs range just target things (2vs1)
they tried to easy that by giving talent trash applying rake, yet it got replaced by CoS for not valid reason

you know UI are personal preference, couldn't apeal to everyones taste, blizzard done that by having addon modification

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Re: Feral Druid Blog post discussion

Post by Polihayse » Thu Nov 19, 2015 7:06 pm

How is it not broken? When you press tab you can sometimes end up targetting the target that you were already targetting. That's why it feels so inconsistent.

The thing with the UI issue is that they really do not try at all. They did introduce spell alerts. However, there are abilities like the instant execute talent that do not have a spell alert for some reason. You also have abilities like Predatory Swiftness that have spell alerts, but do not really need it. They just put it there because there was room. Likewise, they did not put a spell alert in for the execute talent because there was no room.

People have different tastes in what they would prefer their UI to be, but that is not a reason for why they can't make multiple default UIs with different styles. They could even keep the current UI the way it is and simply make it known to players that there are other options available.

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Re: Feral Druid Blog post discussion

Post by Kojiyama » Thu Nov 19, 2015 7:22 pm

Tab-targeting is definitely broken.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic ... page=6#102
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic ... page=9#177

Feel free to read my posts and videos on the forums about it. Understanding the bugs helps work around them somewhat, but it is still pretty frustrating.

There was a time when tab-targeting worked very well. I used it almost exclusively while tanking in Vanilla -> Wrath on my Warrior.

(Some of these things I mentioned in the thread got put in the 'known issues' list after Bashiok's reply... so there is always hope it will improve for Legion!)

Another issue right now is that there is not a single one of the three nameplate modes that is really properly 'stable' enough in screen-space positioning to be reliable for click or mouseover targeting in melee range. They all jump around stupidly in some (different, depending on the mode) situations. This used to be a lot better as well.
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Re: Feral Druid Blog post discussion

Post by teddabear » Fri Nov 20, 2015 6:24 am

Kojiyama wrote:Tab-targeting is definitely broken.

There was a time when tab-targeting worked very well.
That is the biggest reason I find it so frustrating.

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Re: Feral Druid Blog post discussion

Post by Cantor (Shredable) » Fri Nov 20, 2015 8:53 am

Tab-Rake has always proven tricky this expansion; issues with tab-targetting aside, range is a big issue (anyone that's done CMs or Iron Maidens will know this pain) as Dysheki mentioned - possibly somewhat alleviated by the Balance Affinity. Another problem, of course, is that energy as a resource just doesn't lend itself to multi-dotting - you throw 3 Rakes out and you're out of energy, possibly not at 5CPs to Rip anything and waiting on the TF cooldown.

If we're intended to continue bleed cleaving, we could really use some QoL talents to aid this - Rake having a reduced energy when used in succession or on different targets for example, or some way to make Rip ACTUALLY cleave so you only need to apply it once; because what we do now isn't "cleave" - semantics aside, we all know that it's multi-dotting. "Cleave" is Blade Flurry or Inferno Blast, allowing you to focus one target and do damage around it. Now if that's not what they want from us, that's fine - just give us the tools to make bleed dotting doable. Some way to prevent nameplates bouncing all over the screen would be lovely!

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Re: Feral Druid Blog post discussion

Post by Minibubble » Fri Nov 20, 2015 9:08 am

Since the 7.0 Tread is closed i will post this here.

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Re: Feral Druid Blog post discussion

Post by Polihayse » Fri Nov 20, 2015 10:49 am

Running out of energy when raking seems to compliment broken tab targetting though since it takes you forever to get the right target anyway lol. Do you see what I mean when I say that stupid barriers like this do not allow for more interesting design?

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Re: Feral Druid Blog post discussion

Post by aggixx » Fri Nov 20, 2015 6:49 pm

Zstriker wrote:you know UI are personal preference, couldn't apeal to everyones taste, blizzard done that by having addon modification
Some part of UI is preference, not all of it; there is such thing as objectively better or worse. Having all the information you need to regularly look at in 7 different places scattered inches (or feet!) apart from each other on your monitor is god awful. There's a reason why any decent raiding UI tries to take all that information and put it in roughly one area of the screen, because you spend less time either physically moving your eyes around or mentally scanning several areas, which in turn increases the time you have to assess your surroundings and other information (aka raid awareness). 2 players of equal skill could do the same DPS using default UI vs a fully customized one, but the one using default UI would either: a) have dreadful raid awareness and probably die to many things or b) lose massive amounts of DPS whenever there are many things to pay attention to in the encounter simultaneously. This is not a matter of preference at all, the default UI player is objectively worse and not by a small amount.
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Re: Feral Druid Blog post discussion

Post by Ancihcaor » Fri Nov 20, 2015 6:59 pm

Did they say if there were going to attach cp to player frame, next to energy and mana bar instead of enemy frame?


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Re: Feral Druid Blog post discussion

Post by Ancihcaor » Fri Nov 20, 2015 9:59 pm

Bloody Slash: Strike all nearby enemies in a flurry of blood slashes, inflicting 954% Physical damage to each. Awards 1 combo point. Maximum 3 charges.
Replaces Swipe.
45 energy

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Re: Feral Druid Blog post discussion

Post by Tinderhoof » Fri Nov 20, 2015 10:15 pm

:^)

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Re: Feral Druid Blog post discussion

Post by Dandeleon » Fri Nov 20, 2015 10:17 pm

New Talent Tree!!

Lv 15
Lunar Inspiration: Moonfire is now usable while in Cat Form, generates 1 combo point, deals damage based on attack power, and costs 30 energy.
Predator: The cooldown on Tiger's Fury will reset if a target dies with one of your Bleed effects active.
Blood Scent: Your melee abilities in Cat Form have a 10% increased critical strike chance on targets with a Bleed effect.

Lv 30
Displacer Beast: Teleports the Druid up to 20 yards forward, activates Cat Form, and increases movement speed by 50% for 4 sec.
Wild Charge: Fly to a nearby ally's position.
(???) Gutteral Roars: Increases the radius of Stampeding Roar and Incapacitating Roar by 200%. Reduces the cooldown of Stampeding Roar by 50%.

Lv 45
Affinitys

Lv 60
Mass Entanglement: Roots your target in place for 20 sec and spreads to additional nearby enemies. Damage caused may interrupt the effect. Usable in all shapeshift forms.
Mighty Bash: Invokes the spirit of Ursoc to stun the target for 5 sec. Usable in all shapeshift forms.
Typhoon: Summons a violent Typhoon that strikes targets in front of the caster within 15 yards, knocking them back and dazing them for 6 sec. Usable in all shapeshift forms.

lv 75
Bloody Slash: Strike all nearby enemies in a flurry of blood slashes, inflicting 954% Physical damage to each. Awards 1 combo point. Maximum 3 charges.
Replaces Swipe.
Soul of the Forest: Your finishing moves grant 4 Energy per combo point.
Incarnation: King of the Jungle: An improved Cat Form that allows the use of Prowl while in combat and causes Shred and Rake to function as if stealth were active. Lasts 30 sec.

lv90
Sabertooth: Your Ferocious Bite extends the duration of Rip by 2 seconds per combo point spent.
Jagged Wounds: Your Rip, Rake, and Thrash abilities deal the same damage as normal, but in 33% less time.
Elune's Guidance: Immediately gain 5 combo points and an additional 1 combo point every 1 sec for 5 sec. CD 45s


lv100
(???) Moment of Clarity: Your Omen of Clarity now affects the next 3 Cat Form abilities.
(???) Savage Roar: Finishing move that increases physical damage done by 40% while in Cat Form. Lasts longer per combo.
(???) Bloodtalons

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Re: Feral Druid Blog post discussion

Post by Tinderhoof » Fri Nov 20, 2015 10:42 pm

Just to remind everyone, these are the PTR servers coming live with a very old build. There are lots of bits of info that have changed since this was actually POR. Please take everything here with lots and lots of grains of salt.
https://twitter.com/Celestalon/status/6 ... 2770435072

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Re: Feral Druid Blog post discussion

Post by Rayen » Fri Nov 20, 2015 10:58 pm

Interesting choice if we have to pick between Blood Talons and SR. Moonfire tier 1 is kinda meh.
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Re: Feral Druid Blog post discussion

Post by Terias » Fri Nov 20, 2015 11:05 pm

doc looks baseline for feral, 50 energy cap increase rolled into berserk, infected wounds on rake instead of shred (no more free snaring), rebirth instant baseline


cw is resto only, incap roar is bear only, vigil removed, cos removed, treants removed

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Re: Feral Druid Blog post discussion

Post by Terias » Fri Nov 20, 2015 11:16 pm

moonfire tier 1 doesn't seem bad, might actually be the best/skill choice if the damage is sufficient, I always liked the idea of another dot, just not the results after putting up with the extra work

also am I missing something or did they remove 2cp per crit for feral druids entirely?

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Re: Feral Druid Blog post discussion

Post by Istaro » Fri Nov 20, 2015 11:29 pm

Stampeding Roar may have had the root/snare break removed. That would have eliminated one of the two main places I used it during WoD raiding (Ko'ragh's Expel Magic: Frost, the other being Archimonde's Allure of Flames).

If those top two talent tiers stay like that, due to the introduction of Jagged Wounds, I'm surprisingly fine with having to choose between SR and Bloodtalons, since I like the increased bleed significance brought by Jagged Wounds and it might be hard to maintain both faster-expiring bleeds and SR.

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Re: Feral Druid Blog post discussion

Post by aggixx » Fri Nov 20, 2015 11:32 pm

Terias wrote:moonfire tier 1 doesn't seem bad, might actually be the best/skill choice if the damage is sufficient, I always liked the idea of another dot, just not the results after putting up with the extra work
Hoping they address the talent being totally trash once you reach 5+ targets, but yeah otherwise when it's balanced well it's alright I guess.
also am I missing something or did they remove 2cp per crit for feral druids entirely?
I think not mentioned at all means completely unchanged, similar to why Bloodtalons isn't in the post.
Istaro wrote:If those top two talent tiers stay like that, due to the introduction of Jagged Wounds, I'm surprisingly fine with having to choose between SR and Bloodtalons, since I like the increased bleed significance brought by Jagged Wounds and it might be hard to maintain both faster-expiring bleeds and SR.
I don't think Jagged Wounds + SR will be a combination that will ever be optimal. Bloodtalons and Savage Roar have a pretty similar effect in terms of end output, but one consumes some of your combo points while the other consumes your PSs. Due to this, you can't have the two being competitively tuned without Jagged Wounds while also having them tuned with Jagged Wounds. Unless Savage Roar is by default superior to Bloodtalons you will never run SR + Jagged Wounds when you can just use BT + Jagged Wounds.
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Re: Feral Druid Blog post discussion

Post by Terias » Fri Nov 20, 2015 11:32 pm

It also looks like if you go SR you don't get anymore freebies out of stealth or incarnation, since the glyph was removed entirely and it's a talent now.

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Re: Feral Druid Blog post discussion

Post by Kraineth » Fri Nov 20, 2015 11:36 pm

Primal Fury is in there , and has the combo point gain on crit removed. But I doubt they would remove that.

Just from a design perspective these talent tiers look really good as far as swapping from fight to fight goes.

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Re: Feral Druid Blog post discussion

Post by aggixx » Fri Nov 20, 2015 11:40 pm

Kraineth wrote:Primal Fury is in there , and has the combo point gain on crit removed. But I doubt they would remove that.
Oh, so it is. It was in the class preview, though, so they definitely are not removing it:
Primal Fury
Passive
You gain an additional combo point when you critically strike with a combo-generating attack.
Damage over time cannot trigger this effect.
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Re: Feral Druid Blog post discussion

Post by Istaro » Sat Nov 21, 2015 2:18 am

aggixx wrote:I don't think Jagged Wounds + SR will be a combination that will ever be optimal. Bloodtalons and Savage Roar have a pretty similar effect in terms of end output, but one consumes some of your combo points while the other consumes your PSs. Due to this, you can't have the two being competitively tuned without Jagged Wounds while also having them tuned with Jagged Wounds. Unless Savage Roar is by default superior to Bloodtalons you will never run SR + Jagged Wounds when you can just use BT + Jagged Wounds.
I'm not quite understanding the middle of that, but I agree with your conclusion.

I was looking at it like this: Jagged Wounds, unlike the other talents in the (admittedly very tentative) tier, requires additional energy expenditure to take advantage of. The same goes for Savage Roar. So it could very well be the case—and I'd in fact I think it likely—that BT and SR are both viable ("competitively tuned") in the absence of Jagged Wounds, but with Jagged Wounds, BT surpasses SR since there's only so much energy to go around.

On another note, the implications of Predator ("The cooldown on Tiger's Fury will reset if a target dies with one of your Bleed effects active.") in situations with a boss and a bunch of little adds are dizzying, yeah? For the price of a single Thrash, if the adds die in a sufficiently staggered fashion, you could basically have constant TF and all the energy you could want while the adds are dying. Thank goodness TF is off the GCD.

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